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Post by terrysalt on Oct 29, 2021 22:11:28 GMT
I put correctly guessing the password without having gotten the hint from Shekou on par with correctly guessing that Kylltrog is a guard when posing as a herbalist in Citadel of Chaos. It doesn't make a ton of narrative sense but it doesn't strictly speaking break any rules.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,451
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Oct 30, 2021 8:53:57 GMT
I dunno, I always assumed Kylltrog was a fairly common monster name. The orcish equivalent of "Dave" perhaps. While as the password in House of Hell could really be anything, even a nonsense word.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Oct 30, 2021 16:45:40 GMT
While as the password in House of Hell could really be anything, even a nonsense word. An excellent example of where the 'If A=1, B=2 add them up and turn to that paragraph' mechanism could be used.
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Post by terrysalt on Nov 1, 2021 23:48:13 GMT
I dunno, I always assumed Kylltrog was a fairly common monster name. The orcish equivalent of "Dave" perhaps. I never thought of that. I still think it's rather silly but at least that makes it less outright absurd.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,451
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Nov 2, 2021 9:44:13 GMT
I dunno, I always assumed Kylltrog was a fairly common monster name. The orcish equivalent of "Dave" perhaps. I never thought of that. I still think it's rather silly but at least that makes it less outright absurd. There is though a more comparable situation in Citadel of Chaos - if you don't know the password the Rhinoman asks for, you can just guess it. I think Rings of Kether has a situation where you can guess a password and, unlike in Citadel of Chaos and House of Hell, it's actually impossible to find out what it is beforehand which is just ridiculous.
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Post by CharlesX on Nov 2, 2021 10:02:37 GMT
I never thought of that. I still think it's rather silly but at least that makes it less outright absurd. There is though a more comparable situation in Citadel of Chaos - if you don't know the password the Rhinoman asks for, you can just guess it. I think Rings of Kether has a situation where you can guess a password and, unlike in Citadel of Chaos and House of Hell, it's actually impossible to find out what it is beforehand which is just ridiculous. One of my favourites is Island Of the Lizard King where IIRC you say the word "password" and he accepts your guess as correct!
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Post by a moderator on Nov 2, 2021 10:09:06 GMT
One of my favourites is Island Of the Lizard King where IIRC you say the word "password" and he accepts your guess as correct! No, you respond to the question 'What is the password?' with 'What?' and he lets you through - though at least in that case the guard in question is made out to be very slow-witted. I quite like the bit in the (non- FF, though at one point intended to be) gamebook The Lord of Shadow Keep where, not knowing a password, you make something up and state it so confidently that the guard is intimidated into assuming that he's remembered the wrong one, and blurts out the correct one while shamefacedly admitting to his 'error'.
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Post by jmisbest on Nov 3, 2021 19:16:31 GMT
One of my favourites is Island Of the Lizard King where IIRC you say the word "password" and he accepts your guess as correct! No, you respond to the question 'What is the password?' with 'What?' and he lets you through - though at least in that case the guard in question is made out to be very slow-witted. I quite like the bit in the (non- FF, though at one point intended to be) gamebook The Lord of Shadow Keep where, not knowing a password, you make something up and state it so confidently that the guard is intimidated into assuming that he's remembered the wrong one, and blurts out the correct one while shamefacedly admitting to his 'error'. I've got a theory on the situation you describe in Island of The Lizard King and my theory is that the word What actually was the password and the reason the word What was chosen as the password is because The Lizard King King figured that no one would even think that anyone would ever use the word What as A password
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Post by CharlesX on Nov 3, 2021 19:26:12 GMT
No, you respond to the question 'What is the password?' with 'What?' and he lets you through - though at least in that case the guard in question is made out to be very slow-witted. I quite like the bit in the (non- FF, though at one point intended to be) gamebook The Lord of Shadow Keep where, not knowing a password, you make something up and state it so confidently that the guard is intimidated into assuming that he's remembered the wrong one, and blurts out the correct one while shamefacedly admitting to his 'error'. I've got a theory on the situation you describe in Island of The Lizard King and my theory is that the word What actually was the password and the reason the word What was chosen as the password is because The Lizard King King figured that no one would even think that anyone would ever use the word What as A password Who would choose 'what' for their password?
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Post by jmisbest on Nov 3, 2021 19:34:09 GMT
I've got a theory on the situation you describe in Island of The Lizard King and my theory is that the word What actually was the password and the reason the word What was chosen as the password is because The Lizard King King figured that no one would even think that anyone would ever use the word What as A password Who would choose 'what' for their password?
In my theory the idea is that The Lizard King is smart enough, admittingly only just smart enough and only because of Dark Magic, to know that almost everyone on Titan would think that no one in their right mind would choose 'what' for their password and that's exactly why he choose it, because he figured that no one would ever guess it and he was right no one would ever guess it, but unluckily for him when the guard the hero Island of The Lizard King met the and demanded he give him the password without thinking the hero said what, which is the password
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Post by terrysalt on Nov 3, 2021 19:57:12 GMT
Going back to Shekou for a moment, I think the difference for me between guessing the password in CoC and guessing the password in HoH is that Citadel specifically asks "Do you know the password?". So if your character didn't learn it, you should be choosing no. And from there, you have no option of trying to guess it. In HoH it's just "will you try a password?" and yes, yes I will.
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Post by schlendrian on Nov 3, 2021 22:18:40 GMT
Good point
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Post by a moderator on Nov 3, 2021 23:26:24 GMT
"Do you know the password?" would be a better question, as Mordana mentions that a password is needed when telling you how to find the secret room, so there's no way of getting to the relevant point in the book without knowing that you need one. One problem with using the a=1 code here is that the only actual clue to the password is an anagram of it, and since that gives you all the right letters (just not in the right order) you're going to get the same total regardless of whether you solve the anagram, don't even try, or get a wrong answer like 'Demurr'. One way around that issue would be to use some of the letters in the calculation in different ways - for instance, 'multiply the value of the first letter of the password by the value of the last letter of the password, add the values of the letters in between, and turn to the section with that number', but that's starting to get a bit complicated for the less mathematically inclined readers. Nerdiness for people who take this sort of thing further than necessary: Going by my suggestion, the correct password would lead to 282, while the two incorrect passwords that can be found in the book would lead to 78 and 203, which are spaced out quite well.
Making players who found the wrong password do the calculations and then dooming them anyway would be a bit cruel, but then this is the book that offers a choice of cramped and agonising deaths should you fall foul of the torturer.
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Post by terrysalt on Nov 4, 2021 1:52:39 GMT
A simple fix would be "If you think you know the password, write your guess on the adventure sheet."... "if you wrote "murder" turn to x, if you wrote anything else turn to y."
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Post by CharlesX on Nov 4, 2021 4:45:47 GMT
A simple fix would be "If you think you know the password, write your guess on the adventure sheet."... "if you wrote "murder" turn to x, if you wrote anything else turn to y." But then clever readers would wonder whether "anything else" could mean\mply a trap somewhere, not knowing there were several different offered 'passwords' (and assuming the one they'd been given was correct).
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Post by terrysalt on Nov 4, 2021 4:58:33 GMT
As long as you commit them to guessing the password before seeing the options, you could give them the same four options the book gives. Just add "If you wrote none of these, your password doesn't work and the door remains closed. Turn to x."
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Post by philsadler on Nov 4, 2021 9:18:26 GMT
Just use the old A=1, B=2, C=3 and so on routine. Then they'd have to know the answer to know which ref to turn to.
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Post by jmisbest on Nov 4, 2021 11:19:02 GMT
As long as you commit them to guessing the password before seeing the options, you could give them the same four options the book gives. Just add "If you wrote none of these, your password doesn't work and the door remains closed. Turn to x." But that relies on the player being both honest and truthful, but because of the number of the people that play FF Gamebooks I think that its guaranteed that at least a few thousand players aren't always both honest and truthful
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Post by terrysalt on Nov 4, 2021 12:16:52 GMT
As long as you commit them to guessing the password before seeing the options, you could give them the same four options the book gives. Just add "If you wrote none of these, your password doesn't work and the door remains closed. Turn to x." But that relies on the player being both honest and truthful, but because of the number of the people that play FF Gamebooks I think that its guaranteed that at least a few thousand players aren't always both honest and truthful I don't see that as a problem. A sufficiently dishonest player could read the entire book cover to cover, taking notes as to any passwords or important numbers, claim to have every item and to win every combat. You can't cheatproof the books. But you can give an honest player a better experience by removing an immersion breaker like having the password be a 25% chance even if you have no idea what it could be. I think we're trying to solve different problems here.
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Post by terrysalt on Nov 4, 2021 12:19:06 GMT
Just use the old A=1, B=2, C=3 and so on routine. Then they'd have to know the answer to know which ref to turn to. This has been suggested a few times and the counter to that is that all you're told is that the password is an anagram of Drumer and every single anagram of it will have the same total whether they guessed murder, redrum, murred or whatever.
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Post by philsadler on Nov 4, 2021 14:13:02 GMT
Just use the old A=1, B=2, C=3 and so on routine. Then they'd have to know the answer to know which ref to turn to. This has been suggested a few times and the counter to that is that all you're told is that the password is an anagram of Drumer and every single anagram of it will have the same total whether they guessed murder, redrum, murred or whatever.
Whoops!
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Nov 4, 2021 18:41:02 GMT
This has been suggested a few times and the counter to that is that all you're told is that the password is an anagram of Drumer and every single anagram of it will have the same total whether they guessed murder, redrum, murred or whatever.
Whoops!
So it does! That ruins that idea then. It works vs Pravemi though... which is what I thought it was the first time I got through to that point.
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Nov 4, 2021 19:07:48 GMT
Going back to Shekou for a moment, I think the difference for me between guessing the password in CoC and guessing the password in HoH is that Citadel specifically asks "Do you know the password?". So if your character didn't learn it, you should be choosing no. And from there, you have no option of trying to guess it. In HoH it's just "will you try a password?" and yes, yes I will. I thought about this for longer than I should have after the discussion a couple of years ago, but at the time I didnt want to belabor the point any further. But since youve brought it up again, I personally feel its fair game if you happen to not get the password from Shekou and then happen to guess correctly. Its not the player's fault if Steve Jackson happened to forget who he was when he was writing this particular section. After all, at no time do you say you have something you dont have or turn to a reference you werent directed to. As others have said, even if he had just asked flat out "Did you learn the password? Yes or No?", I would have been forced to choose "No" and that would have been that. House of Hell will always be one of my absolute favorites from the range because of the memories and connection I had with it from playing it back in the 80s. That said, it does have some foibles that stick out, such as the Shekou password, the Kris Knife bonus, and the layout of the ground floor which doesnt seem to make much sense. Greenspine actually attempts to map the ground floor out in his excellent playthrough on his blog which I highly recommend reading to anyone who hasnt already.
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Post by philsadler on Nov 5, 2021 13:41:49 GMT
So it does! That ruins that idea then. It works vs Pravemi though... which is what I thought it was the first time I got through to that point.
Perhaps what could happen could be like some of the things I've done in my own books. Let's say that the answer is 'murder' or whatever. Now we translate that alphanumerically to '13 21 18 4 5 18'. OK, now before you go to the section that gives that answer you must ask the reader what he thinks the answer is and maybe he thinks it's 'Derrum' (silly I know but bear with me), now he translates that alphanumerically and gets his answer of '4 5 18 18 21 13'.
Now he writes that number down and then goes and compares it to the answer which is of course wrong. What do you think?
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Post by tyrion on Nov 5, 2021 19:49:31 GMT
An easier way might be (after being given the clue by shekou) 'when you are asked for a password, deduct 20 from that reference and then to this new reference instead'. Then you could be given some random choices. I know it eats up more references, but not as many as that torturer and his inverted version of pointless.
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Post by CharlesX on Nov 5, 2021 20:33:34 GMT
An easier way might be (after being given the clue by shekou) 'when you are asked for a password, deduct 20 from that reference and then to this new reference instead'. Then you could be given some random choices. I know it eats up more references, but not as many as that torturer and his inverted version of pointless. The torturer is one of my favourite bits (even though I think you can't go there when you're on the true path), not because of the lose-lose cage thing if you don't make it, but the naming things puzzle beforehand is interesting, and its difficulty level is just right. One of the things I dislike is the tough ghoul fight, which only alerts the Earl's followers after you win and leads to an instant death, or if you're smart enough to avoid the fight, you alert the followers and still die instantly. This unfairness was probably what SJ was going for, but to me personally it felt low to have a 'pure trap' room. This typifies something I sometimes dislike in (particularly earlier) FF; the very male, very cliche-ridden tendency to revel in horrific world-building and railroading, instead of a more green or RPG feel.
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Post by terrysalt on Nov 5, 2021 20:37:32 GMT
Okay, I've got it. As you approach the area under the stairs, a booming voice rings out "Good evening ladies and gentleman and welcome to Open That Door. Our next contestant had a vehicular misfortune outside this very house. Please welcome Protagonist! *cheering* Okay Protagonist, for your chance to open this door and claim the loot that lies within: Is the password pravemi, goathead, murder or kris? *thinking music plays in the background*
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Post by a moderator on Nov 5, 2021 22:07:34 GMT
An easier way might be (after being given the clue by shekou) 'when you are asked for a password, deduct 20 from that reference and then to this new reference instead'. Then you could be given some random choices. I know it eats up more references, but not as many as that torturer and his inverted version of pointless. You could free up a few spaces for it by getting rid of the 'Before you ring the bell, do you want to check for traps? [...] You can't find any, but would you like to waste a point of Luck double-checking?' bit in the dining room just before the endgame. It made a bit of sense in the Warlock magazine version because there was a booby-trapped bell-pull earlier on, but since that wasn't in the book, the call-back is out of place. The torturer is one of my favourite bits (even though I think you can't go there when you're on the true path), not because of the lose-lose cage thing if you don't make it, but the naming things puzzle beforehand is interesting, and its difficulty level is just right. You can make a detour to drop in on the torturer and still win - he's behind one of the side doors between Shekou's info-dump and the part of the cellar with the secret room in. So how would you have penalised players who failed to get hold of the dining room key? Okay, so the kitchen also punishes people who pick the wrong door when faced with a blind choice, but once you start providing get-outs for 'bad' decisions, you're on the road to the sort of gamebook where the decisions are meaningless because they all lead to the same inevitable victory.
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Post by a moderator on Nov 5, 2021 22:23:21 GMT
Okay, I've got it. As you approach the area under the stairs, a booming voice rings out "Good evening ladies and gentleman and welcome to Open That Door. Our next contestant had a vehicular misfortune outside this very house. Please welcome Protagonist! *cheering* Okay Protagonist, for your chance to open this door and claim the loot that lies within: Is the password pravemi, goathead, murder or kris? *thinking music plays in the background* What next? A Blind Date-esque character summary of the prisoners in the cells when you're trying to decide which of them to approach? And how about making the torturer's quiz a bit more like Family Fortunes? "We asked you for a word related to this house beginning with 'M'. You answered 'Mephisto'. Our survey said..." EHH-ERR!
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Post by schlendrian on Nov 5, 2021 23:34:43 GMT
Okay, I've got it. As you approach the area under the stairs, a booming voice rings out "Good evening ladies and gentleman and welcome to Open That Door. Our next contestant had a vehicular misfortune outside this very house. Please welcome Protagonist! *cheering* Okay Protagonist, for your chance to open this door and claim the loot that lies within: Is the password pravemi, goathead, murder or kris? *thinking music plays in the background* What next? A Blind Date-esque character summary of the prisoners in the cells when you're trying to decide which of them to approach? And how about making the torturer's quiz a bit more like Family Fortunes? "We asked you for a word related to this house beginning with 'M'. You answered 'Mephisto'. Our survey said..." EHH-ERR! There's certainly room for a Monty Hall type show there, if only to have some goat-headed cultists instead of actual goats behind the wring doors.
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