64) Night of the Necromancer

[vagsancho]

I love this book. Amazing atmosphere! I stongly feel it. I strongly identify with it. Magik Book. One of my favourites along with Deathtrap Dungeon, City of Thieves and Crypt of The Sorcerer.

[vagsancho]

I absoulutely love this FF book! Undoubtedly in my top 5! Very powerfull to me. I do not like the fact the paragraph 450 ends with the words "The End". I erased them.

[johnbrawn1972]

Clutching at straws. At least we now have a thread for one of the best books. Must do that guide for a max stats character one day this decade.

[johnbrawn1972]

I have been thinking about a burning question namely question three about who is now the Lord Of Valsinore. After looking at the prologue I believe you have to have reached reference 250 where the treachery is revealed and Chamberlain Unthank is referred to as Lord. So this is a sort of combination lock moment a la Citadel. The story makes a lot more sense and also the mechanics fall into place where acquiring Shade becomes a necessity rather than merely a bonus. It is astoundingly generous to have three opportunities of declining probability to acquire Shade. There is a last opportunity to acquire Shade that requires a lucky dice roll if you have an 8/15/7 avatar. In contrast much kinder than Spellbreaker.

If anyone has an earlier reference please post and I will have a rethink. As far as I can tell prior to the above revelation Unthank is always prefaced by Chamberlain not Lord. As others have mentioned there are a lot of rumours prior to the revelation so it is not a surprise but nevertheless only rumours. 

[sylas]

Jul 26, 2015 14:48:10 GMT vagsancho said:

I absoulutely love this FF book! Undoubtedly in my top 5! Very powerfull to me. I do not like the fact the paragraph 450 ends with the words "The End". I erased them.

Damn, i must've somehow missed this post before but LOL! i can just imagine Vags going at the page with an eraser until the page is white and smooth.

[hynreck]

I would imagine that that last page now adorns a hole instead of a smooth white surface. If not, congrats on vag's skill on getting it done right.

[johnbrawn1972]

I have been having a think yet again. As far as I can tell there probably needs to be separate solutions for skill 7(complete), 8, 9, 10, 11 and 12(complete). The permutations produce incredible complexity though they must be subtle variations on the solutions already provided. I am guessing for skill 8, 9 and 10 it is still necessary to acquire Cador while Rest In Peace is suitable for skill 11. How to generate Watcher is also tricky. There are the very convenient instant deaths for a skill 12 avatar but it becomes complicated due to accidental deaths for the middle range scores. Yet another project for a quiet evening.

[revenant]

It's a good book and does have a great atmosphere. Reminds me a bit of one of Dave Morris's Golden Dragon books, what was that one where you had to reclaim your ancient throne or something?

Jon Green can get a bit long-winded with the full descriptions, but I like how FF has both terse, even simplistic books (Ian Livingstone) and more florid ones.

Was reading through Night Dragon tonight. Great atmosphere there too, and I love Tony Hough's illustrations.

[hynreck]

None of the Golden Dragon books are about reclaiming your ancient throne... There is something like that in The Way of the Tiger, but then it wouldn't be Dave Morris.

I haven't read everything Dave Morris yet, so I can't venture further.

[vagsancho]

How i wish to to play / to feel / to win this book again!! So much!!

[hynreck]

What's stoping you from do-doing it? Lost it in that pyramid of yours?

[vagsancho]

Nov 4, 2015 13:15:06 GMT hynreck said:

What's stoping you from do-doing it? Lost it in that pyramid of yours?

I do not know. Something is stoping me.

[Deleted]

Fate.

[vagsancho]

How i wish to play and to feel this book again! My God, how i wish to feel it again!

[Pete Byrdie]

Jan 20, 2016 13:28:39 GMT vagsancho said:

How i wish to play and to feel this book again! My God, how i wish to feel it again!

A cold shower may help.

[sylas]

a great example of NOT using your wishes wisely.

[deadshadowrunner]

At least the wish might come true

[hynreck]

Genies just love those wish.

[johnbrawn1972]

One last technical post. Basically the mid range scores produce too much complexity. Use the Black Hourglass and Codex only unless you roll a 6 skill.

1 Skill 7(boosted 8) completed

2 Skill 8(boosted 9) the same as skill 7. Use the priest to generate an extra death if needed

3 Skill 9(boosted 10) the same as skill 8

4 Skill 10(boosted 11) use the early insta-death, fight instead of the hound chase and then use the priest if necessary

5 Skill 11(boosted 12) the same as skill 10 but still go for Cador because of the 28 stamina

6 Skill 12(boosted 13) completed. Only go for the spirit stone and Rest In Peace here.

Use the general solution and my solutions as well. One of the great strengths is each play will be slightly different rather than the rigid structure of most of the early books which tend to be very determinate.

[johnbrawn1972]

I have been having a radical rethink about Night Of The Necromancer.

On my 7/14/7 route I always thought it best to acquire Korzen and Cador. My thinking now is to take the first death near the beginning and then acquire Shade with the 1/2, 1/3, 1/6 route as already explored.

The idea now is to avoid Korzen and Cador altogether to bypass the Fool's Bargain punishment.

My new idea is to take the slightly riskier option of using Marrok as helpfully suggested many moons ago with the rather amusing idea of avoiding the glass cannon of Cador. My reasoning is somewhat different namely he is next best after Cador.

The idea now is to be strong enough to reach the black knights directly who then should generate the second death.

[johnbrawn1972]

I know this is bad form to reply to myself but one last post to satiate my inner drive.

The idea now, with both 7/14/7 Cador/Marrok, is to go as directly as possible to paragraph 250 and then to 450(duh).

1 The beginning requires a will roll of 7 or less at the First Death. Also you need to roll a 15 or less on a 3d6 stamina roll plus an 8 or less on a 2d6 will roll. After that it should fall into place.
2 The shrine is a bonus but the Spellbreaker-like slightly unfair 2d6+2 will roll is a reasonable 9(11?) or less for success. Also the consequences are not that significant unlike Spellbreaker.
3 Korzen generates problems because you should really reach the 'dominate' paragraph with 12 will to acquire the essential Spook codeword.
4 (Marrok only)The blood offering of Korzen is just madness. Alternatively accepting the severe punishment leaves you with diminished skill and stamina plus the Barking codeword which makes reaching the Black Knights for the Second Death somewhat risky.
5 (Cador only)There is a nifty workaround to meet Cador, without knowing about Korzen, so you can Spook him later on. This avoids both the Korzen blood offering and the severe punishment. The Barracks codeword is no problem for 8/15/7 so you should reach the Black Knights easily.
Just remembered also:
6 I had always wondered why bother going into the catacombs for Nightslayer when Marrok/Cador have 'blessed' swords. After checking out nodes I normally discount the answer seems to be as follows. If the final encounter is your thing then it is great to have the +1 attack strength bonus and +3 damage. Though the Amethyst Blade is easily acquired it is only 1 attack round quicker than Nightslayer. I had thought previously that the bonuses applied to some of the 'magical' creatures but they are only explicitly mentioned in the last battle. Strictly only for the 12/24/12 route on my solution if you want to explore the last encounter a la Warlock with the potion of invisibility.
7 You lose the codeword Host at the end, which is explicit in the text, so it has to be Black Hourglass first so you can fight the Black Knights with Host and then lose Host meaning Codex at the end. Bizarrely I have come across some who do not seem to understand this and seem to think you have Cador/Marrok at the end. Champskees is explicit in his help guide about this and understands it correctly.
8 One further amendment. I now have four reasons why acquiring Shade is important to enter the Feast Hall.
a) To encounter Marrok so you can spook him later on.
b) To find out who Unthank really is so the book makes sense.
c) The Third Death makes sense because you can use your knowledge of paragraph 250 to acquire the Black Hourglass.
d) You can answer the third question of who is the Lord of Valsinore revealed at paragraph 250.

[johnbrawn1972]

I have made one last push with a Marrok solution which for me is just about definitive. It is basically the same as above but with a bifurcated solution. The idea is to avoid the confrontation with the Bonebeasts with a luck roll and acquire the Amethyst Blade to face off in the last battle after using the Oil Of Midnight to even things up a bit. The odds are, I believe, 45/55 on being hit but you only need to hit it 3 times which should be a sufficient safety margin. If you fail the luck roll then fight as normal and take the Codex Mortis avoiding the last fight as per normal.

The beginning is definitive I believe if you are following the spirit of the rules. I experimented with losing an extra fight early on but there are 2 problems. One you miss out on the Black Hourglass. Second it makes things very tricky because if you lose to the Knights and generate a Third Death there is the problem of not being able to defeat the Watcher in the 'correct' manner with the knowledge gained from paragraph 250. The luck roll to evade the Watcher is difficult with your luck at that point being 5-7 so it is likely you will end up with the Endgame codeword which is game over at the Feast Hall. If you bypass the Feast Hall you cannot answer the question about who is Lord Of Valsinore so game over again.

One of you has said convincingly that you should make up your own rules but I also like Champskees discipline about the letter and spirit of the rules which are not necessarily in conflict. The classic one has to be HOH where I would accept anyone wanting the +3 and +6 to apply at the end.

[johnbrawn1972]

I promise I am just about done with my hobby horse.

I have done one final adjustment to my 7/14/7 Marrok solution. I realised the First Death needed to be more flexible so it is more likely you will advance deeper into the book on each proper attempt. I have also put (numbers) in the solution so it flows a little easier.

Ideally you should reach the gatehouse without dying which renders the First Death will roll much more likely. If you fail the First Death will roll just after the gatehouse it is no problem because you do not have to enter the right archway simply bypassing it. This is more flexible.

I now believe the portal that generates the First Death is only suitable for a 12/24/12 character where the First Death is ideal to either set you up for the Second Death with Telak or if you fail the will roll at First Death then it is no problem because you now have Watcher and can bypass Telak.

I can now rest easy. I will have to obsess about something else now. Howl Of The Werewolf? Stormslayer?

[johnbrawn1972]

One last tiny post I promise. My hobby horse is now complete but I feel like Dr Johnson in the episode of Blackadder where his 'completed' dictionary is refuted by the ever resentful Blackadder neologising contrafibularities and such like to confound the aforementioned ie I fear some genius will post a solution with an 80% chance of success compared to my 60% chance of success(total guess as to the chances with my last Marrok solution but my 'nightmare' is clear)

I have made the deaths as flexible as possible rather than being too determinate as before. The logic is a little tighter too. Anyone familiar with the structure will understand the deaths are tactical and integral to the gameplay. It must be almost unique in having to engineer multiple deaths to realise tactical possibilities especially when it is your own demise.

[deadshadowrunner]

Thanks johnbrawn. Your findings have inspired me. I am now on my way to enlightenment.

[johnbrawn1972]

Aug 9, 2016 16:00:09 GMT deadshadowrunner said:

Thanks johnbrawn. Your findings have inspired me. I am now on my way to enlightenment.

I feel like someone is pulling my leg a bit but I am very sympathetic to Abraham.

[johnbrawn1972]

My last super solution is now open to criticism.

I feel like Hegel with his system. As Kierkegaard said the tremendous labour present creates doubt about the very project.

1 The solution now creates the possibility of Cador or Marrok.
2 The first major difference is now between a will loaded outcome or a less will loaded outcome. If you are encumbered by no deaths and have 12 will then picking up Korzen is no problem as you are likely to pass the First Death will roll.
3 If you have less will but no deaths it is still a good thing to encounter Cador.
4 Otherwise go with Marrok as the early death encounters should be avoided so Third Death is acquired at the right time.
5 It is certain you will spook Cador unless you have taken a very strange route.
6 Otherwise it is certain you will spook Marrok if you go to the blasted tower.(not in my solution but to trip up you would need to roll a double 6).
7 In my solution C=Cador and M=Marrok duh.
8 Korzen is a headache in the final encounter. Is a dog really going to be effective against a creature from the darkest realms of reality? I would guess not. What do you think? Not to include the -1 attack strength roll?

[deadshadowrunner]

Aug 11, 2016 20:58:50 GMT johnbrawn1972 said:

Aug 9, 2016 16:00:09 GMT deadshadowrunner said:

Thanks johnbrawn. Your findings have inspired me. I am now on my way to enlightenment.

I feel like someone is pulling my leg a bit but I am very sympathetic to Abraham.

I may have come across as a bit sardonic now that I look at my post, but I do appreciate the massive amounts of time you have put into this.

[johnbrawn1972]

One last adjustment I might make is too avoid Korzen altogether so only a 12 will picks up Cador while anyone else picks up Marrok. I will have a think over the weekend but I am beginning to think this is better because the Cador route cannot lose because you must pass the will roll at First Death. I still like this fusion choice very much. Is Korzen a red herring?

[johnbrawn1972]

Adjustment made whereby only an avatar with no deaths and at least 12 will acquires Cador with the neat route that avoids Korzen who is now interpreted as a red herring. If you make it to Cador and only have 2 stamina left the Spirit Stalkers will probably finish you off but this is no problem because you have 12 will and will automatically acquire Devourer. The first set of Black Knights will almost certainly mean you acquire Watcher setting you up for the rest of the book.

Everyone else acquires Marrok who is just as good.

The only tricky route is if you are very unlucky and roll 11 or 12 against will after the Grave Golem. This makes it probable you will not make it into the shrine. The First Death means you will have to roll 8 or less otherwise you slide across to the Sin Eater which is not a problem with the Black Knights. Even if you follow the route religiously you will have 13 will to acquire Marrok and 13 will if you use the Codex Mortis at the end. An obvious boost is to visit the Blasted Tower for a will point. The most important consequence is to be able to spook Marrok. If you are the unluckiest player in the world and roll a double 6 this would mean having to go to the backup of Rest In Peace which would require Crypt levels of luck to succeed.

For avatars who have better attributes than 7/14/7 it can become a balancing act. The instadeath at the stones is helpful to generate a First Death along with Telak so you generate Watcher. For intermediate scores the Nightshade and Death Spider are lethal encounters if you need to generate Watcher after a beginning where it was unclear if you would survive or not.

If you generate Watcher at the 'wrong' time it becomes decidedly tricky because then you have to make a luck roll which could generate Endgame before you arrive at the Feast Hall which Hudson would be correct in describing as game over man game over. I am going with the 'logic' here where you cannot use meta-knowledge with the Watcher unless you have reached paragraph 250. So 250 allows you to acquire the Black Hourglass otherwise you have to make the luck roll. This is both 'logic' and the 'spirit' of the rules.

You can engage with the last two encounters without any heavy artillery but they are two tough encounters back to back, after losing Host, though as long as you have the Soul Shield and Amethyst Blade the final encounter is not too daunting. This is why the Black Hourglass is sort of necessary in my system.