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Post by hynreck on Oct 24, 2013 18:45:47 GMT
OK here's my review of Caverns from the UFFF, thanks to the almighty Mudworm once again. It's a salvage, and most of it seems there, but I'm not 100% sure. In any case, some of it is not as clear as I was hoping it to be, so I've gone and done another slight edit/revision work. Nothing fancy, same core as before.
Oh yeah. (who starts a review with oh yeah? Well I did, apparently) La sorcière des neiges is a book that I never really knew well. I knew of its existence, yes, but just because it belonged to one of my cousin, back then a girl of only a few years older than I was. It was the only one that she had. I always assumed that it was the case because she was a girl, and that one obviously is all about girl stuff (witch and all that)... right? Hmm. Yeah, I have had my share of stupidity leak now and then, I guess. So, quite a few years later I bought myself a copy, fearing those books to be soon extinct, and rightly so, too, and played it. Now I've replayed the Wizard edition, and boy I had forgotten a whole lot. I know now that it has something of a bad rep, what of it being the (possibly needlessly) extended version of a short story, extremely linear and well, now that I've been through it, quite hard. Or should I say harsh? There's a lot of split choices that meet back not too far ahead... you can't get lost, but if you choose the wrong way or forget to pick the right item, that can and probably will spell your doom before long.
Now for a bit about the art. It's funny how I remember initially viewing the inside illustrations as bad... crude perhaps was the word I was looking for back then. Now today I find most of them awesome. The amount of details is fantastic and the technic, which makes it look like wood cuttings, well, I don't think I've seen that technic being employed anywhere else. Except perhaps with some of John Blanche in the Sorcery! series? As for the cover, covers should I say, for the old original english and french version as for the Wizard one, they are both made by Les Edwards and depict scenes from inside the Snow Witch's caverns and are all rather well done. But for my taste nothing beats the original with the strangled Orc, while the french one appears to have crop the original image so that only the Orc can be seen, giving the impression that he his screaming his hatred to the heavens, or the cavern's ceiling anyway, and might mislead a new reader into thinking that it is the titular Snow Witch, as I was once fooled. The new cover, with the Snow Witch exiting her sarcophagus seems wrong somehow, too soft, too plain and ordinary. Not the way I imagined it, even going as far as the shape of the sarcophagus. The way the Snow Witch is depicted in the inside illo is much better, more convincing. That's the way she should have been on the new cover, minus the nose ring. She can lose that. I realise that in the 80's it was probably viewed as the ultimate badass symbol, but nowadays it's not only common, but cliché, and certainly unworthy of such a great witch. The story isn't the most original, but it's good most of the time, doing what it's supposed to do with minimal but effective descriptions for atmosphere. It does become a bit tedious near the end, especially the Healer part, with lots of fan service with references to other books, though back then it was probably more for the sake of advertising and as filler.
Overall, I enjoyed going through the book again, though found it frustrating to meet regular "checkpoint" where I was stopped cold for not possessing a certain item.
Well, not my best review, certainly not thorough, but there it is.
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Post by vastariner on Oct 26, 2013 22:13:50 GMT
Plus 1 on the illustrations from me as well - possibly because they do look so different from what has gone before. The front cover is one of the best as well; certainly an orc looking like that looks far worthier an opponent than the mis-shapen lumps elsewhere in canon.
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Post by a moderator on Oct 27, 2013 13:12:50 GMT
Not that you get to fight that Orc. Well, not until the sequel, at least.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Mar 23, 2014 14:14:47 GMT
From TUFFF (just a fragment of Oakdweller's review, date unknown)... I notice that I'm only the second member to post comments on this book (well, in it's main thread anyway). Well, this is understandable as Caverns of the Snow Witch is a book that was cobbled together, rather than written as a single adventure. The companion idea that had been used tentatively in Livingstone's two previous books is brought forward to the next stage. Redswift and Stubb manage to stay with the reader for longer. This gives room for some character development, allowing you to get to know the earnest Redswift and the bold but naive Stubb. However, there is still little in the way of letting the reader choose how to develop your relationship with them. This is - I think - the only FF book to be illustrated by two artists. I wonder, did they draw half of the pictures each or did they take it in turns to add their bits to the same pictures? Or perhaps they both held the same pen... Hynreck described the illustrations here as being similar to Tudor woodcuts, with their widely-spaced shading lines and bold shapes. This gives the illustrations a very different feel to what has come before. Well, the first section with the dungeon crawl in the ice caverns is OK, with some passable encounters such as the kitchen with its gnome chef and his moose-stripping Neanderthal assistant.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Mar 23, 2014 14:16:12 GMT
From TUFFF... It is a very good book. Another masterpiece from Ian Livingstone. Not his best though. The journey is almost unforgettable. The illness path after the healing goal is pretty unique above all the FF books I've read.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Mar 23, 2014 14:17:17 GMT
From TUFFF... Our last moment with the sun rising in the top of the Firetop Mountain is almost a moment of dream. It has to be one of the most satisfying endings in FF. Especially after the long slog it takes to get there.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Mar 23, 2014 14:18:20 GMT
From TUFFF... As I said, a masterpiece from Ian Livingstone only defeated by the "challenges from Sukumvit's mind", his Port Blacksand story and, of course, his Razzak's book.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Mar 23, 2014 14:18:45 GMT
From TUFFF... A little game: try to spot the seven differences between your Elf and Dwarf companions in this book and your Elf and Dwarf companions in Crypt of the Sorcerer.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Mar 23, 2014 14:19:15 GMT
From TUFFF... Your companions in CotS are a dwarf and a human.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Mar 23, 2014 14:22:01 GMT
From TUFFF (slightly mangled/holey conversation?)... I think Roweena is the witch from Dree in COH
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Mar 23, 2014 14:22:19 GMT
From TUFFF... That's Romeena. And the one near Coven is Rosina.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Mar 23, 2014 14:25:54 GMT
From TUFFF... According to Titan, the Snow Witch's name is Shareella. There's a sequel to this adventure in the latest Fighting Fantazine. (Again, this is dateless, but I'm guessing this is a ref to Return to the Icefinger Mountains in Fighting Fantazine issue #9.)
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Mar 23, 2014 14:27:25 GMT
From TUFFF... Been ages since I've read this one. Can someone remind me what happens to Stubb at the end. Does he survive? Two Words.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Mar 23, 2014 14:28:03 GMT
From TUFFF... Stubb? He goes with Bigleg to the forest of doom. It is not explicit if he dies there or not. Razaak's apprentice.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Mar 23, 2014 14:28:45 GMT
From TUFFF... I meant if he becomes a victim of the death spell. Two Words.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Mar 23, 2014 14:29:12 GMT
From TUFFF... There's no indication that he's affected by the death spell (and if he is, Redswift is one of the most evil characters in all FF for not letting him know).
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Mar 23, 2014 14:29:56 GMT
From TUFFF... Yes, you read the spell without understanding it. Redswift reads it and understands it. Stubb doesn't read it at all and so is the only one not affected by it. There's something quite tragic about you unwittingly causing Redswift's death by asking him to translate the spell for you.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Mar 23, 2014 14:30:28 GMT
From TUFFF... Cheers guys. I kinda remembered it like that but wasn't sure if looking at the spell rather than reading it had the same effect. Two Words.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Mar 23, 2014 14:31:27 GMT
From TUFFF... I am still not convinced. Surely I saw the message but I didn't read it because I couldn't. Redswift read it, because he could. But for sure, or almost, Stubb at least saw it too as I, because the message was in the entrance of the tunnel, and we were all very close at that moment.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Mar 23, 2014 14:31:49 GMT
From TUFFF... You tried to read it, though.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Mar 23, 2014 14:32:09 GMT
From TUFFF... Also you made the decision to read it and sent an agent to do it. So you are vicariously affected.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Mar 23, 2014 14:34:08 GMT
From TUFFF... The illustrations remind me of {LINK MISSING}. The more beautiful and pure FF is – the more satisfying it is to corrupt it. Perhaps Tammy will explain/remind us of what she was reminded of at some point.
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Post by nathanh on Dec 31, 2014 20:23:56 GMT
Well, this is a fairly rubbish book but reasonably playable once you survive the Yeti. If you know how to play a Livingstone book then you make fairly steady progress. It also does a pretty good job of chipping away at your health as you stagger towards victory. If the spear/warhammer section was a deliberate trap then that's excellently spiteful stuff: it's the sort of reference that you note on your map as being cost-free useful, and if you always visit this reference you'll never even know that having the Warhammer is actually bad (you'd assume the "if you don't have a warhammer" section was just an entertaining way to die).
The Yeti killed me 12 times but the rest of the book only got me 9 more times.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Jul 23, 2015 15:22:19 GMT
More one Masterpiece from Livingstone. Amazing Book. Such an amazing and realistic atmosphere. Magik. No doubt!
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Aug 22, 2015 22:44:18 GMT
I have done walks of 10, 20, even up to 30 miles in this life, but none i've made was so costly and so painful as that climb up the mountains i've made in search of the healer. At every single minute i felt death kissing my face. Memorable.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jul 23, 2017 10:09:40 GMT
Updated so it is now readable. The logic is a little improved as well.
The necessity of the 12 skill shows the creeping unfairness but at least there are opportunities to regain lost skill points which shows a level of care and attention.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Dec 26, 2017 19:53:45 GMT
I think it best to reply here to keep the solutions board uncluttered except for Champskees clarification which is solution related.
Again it has been a delight to read the Caverns solution. The coloured networking perhaps shows he works with 14 and 15 year old GCSE economics students where bright and attractive colours help real human beings.
I have no answer with my 'intuition' system though there is one clear reason I have always had about attacking at the beginning and it is the screwy way the data is presented whereas the Mammoth data in unambiguous so it is a 'human' reason. I am not too worried if the scores are close.
My 'intuition' system has a low luck score so I always use the Potion of Fortune for an obvious reason which is you can hopefully avoid one fight and then regain one luck point for the cruel 'double luck' roll where a double failure leads to instant death. This is my 'intuition' based reasoning. I thought with 6 luck you only have a 41% chance of success? I was playing the odds at an intuitive level.
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Post by champskees on Dec 27, 2017 0:17:22 GMT
I think it best to reply here to keep the solutions board uncluttered except for Champskees clarification which is solution related. Again it has been a delight to read the Caverns solution. The coloured networking perhaps shows he works with 14 and 15 year old GCSE economics students where bright and attractive colours help real human beings. I have no answer with my 'intuition' system though there is one clear reason I have always had about attacking at the beginning and it is the screwy way the data is presented whereas the Mammoth data in unambiguous so it is a 'human' reason. I am not too worried if the scores are close. My 'intuition' system has a low luck score so I always use the Potion of Fortune for an obvious reason which is you can hopefully avoid one fight and then regain one luck point for the cruel 'double luck' roll where a double failure leads to instant death. This is my 'intuition' based reasoning. I thought with 6 luck you only have a 41% chance of success? I was playing the odds at an intuitive level. Yes I believe that taking the luck potion is best overall. If you look at the instances where it is better to take a stamina potion it is due to low skill scores i.e. 10 or 11. You will lose a lot more stamina than a sk 12 character, to the point where more stamina will be more valuable than more luck. As a side note, the colour coding and font change is more of a programming thing. A lot of programming languages colour boolean phrases, methods and side notes differently to make it easier to read. In python you must indent all lines of code properly so that is also carried over in my layout. My notes I use for kids at school are black and white and very minimalistic, mostly because I couldn't give a toss about doing a good 'job'. Work is for suckers and peasants. I won't be teaching for much longer, I am resigning on Day 1 Term 1 next year. I have a feeling the system will be better off .
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Dec 27, 2017 23:11:26 GMT
I have noticed something a bit peculiar about your solution if you have no Dragon's egg as you can still roll to avoid the very punishing fight with 2d6+2 so you still have a chance especially the skill necessary to defeat this book.
Another book where 9/24/12 has no chance. I wonder which books 10-20 will raise the most eyebrows.
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Post by champskees on Dec 28, 2017 9:02:18 GMT
I have noticed something a bit peculiar about your solution if you have no Dragon's egg as you can still roll to avoid the very punishing fight with 2d6+2 so you still have a chance especially the skill necessary to defeat this book. Another book where 9/24/12 has no chance. I wonder which books 10-20 will raise the most eyebrows. I believe the 2d6+2 test is if you do not possess a candle, just before the dragon egg/banshee test. Para 91/271/154/185 for banshee path, Para 258/343 for no candle. That is why I recommend not going for the shield if you miss the air elemental. What is peculiar is that I have provided steps for an adventurer to follow if they do not have a dragon's egg, which is impossible based on the solution, so I took that redundant section out.
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