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Post by The Editor (Alex B) on Sept 29, 2013 19:27:14 GMT
The grand-daddy of them all. Your thoughts?
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torallion
Squire
Posts: 12
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by torallion on Oct 1, 2013 9:34:35 GMT
A classic of course - not the best written, constructed or balanced gamebook but one of the (if not the) most important in history. Sorry for the shameless blog plug but I've done a review/playthrough here.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 12, 2013 17:26:38 GMT
From TUFFF... You know, when compiling my book list, I was reminded that I own seven different versions of this book. I realise there are more of course (I don't have the original wrap-around) but it seems to me like they've absolutely milked this book for all it's worth. What did everyone think of the 25th Anniversary Edition? Did you buy it? Would you like to see more books printed like that? (I know Deathtrap Dungeon in a similar format would be great in my opinion). ~ Vae Victis! ~
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 12, 2013 17:27:52 GMT
From TUFFF... Do those seven include the 165-section sample adventure? Or the Warlock magazine 'move a few keys and change the correct combination' variant? I also have the board game, which is quite fun, and I've created a TWoFM solo mission for The Battle for Wesnoth. Considering that it never occurred to me to check the map in the 25th anniversary special until after I'd finished work on it, I did a pretty good job of the layout. And my hairpin bend is a lot more hairpinny than the one on the map.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 12, 2013 17:33:18 GMT
From TUFFF... I own a copy in french of the book, Le sorcier de la montagne de feu, not first print, but close. It's well worn and dog-eared, but still readable and the pages have not fallen out of it like my first copy of Deathtrap Dungeon (Le labyrinthe de la mort).
I also own the 25th anniversary edition, which I thought was pretty neat: original wrap-around cover, hard cover to boot, bonus stuff and the map, the beautiful map. Plus!! The one-true way! Yes no more going around in that stupid maze of Zagor!!
And finally, I bought the recently released Wizard edition... just because I could really. Plus I told myself that one more copy of that classic couldn't hurt; I got a kid that's going to grow up and maybe will want to read that book one day.
This book is one of my favourites. But I'll admit, there's a lot of nostalgia talking here, lots of subjectivity, since it was one of my first. So there goes: Warlock always did fascinate me and scare me at the same time. As a kid, I got lost so many times in that book that I come to dread going in, yet couldn't resist. When I was young, I think I only managed to reach the end once or twice, never with the good keys. I became haunted by the maze of Zagor and it's random creatures, and other stuff like the Ghoul or the zombie room. For a time, especially because of the teleport trap, I thought that Warlock was simply unmapable, after the river. (maybe not a word, but you know)
. I knew all the places by heart, yet always ended up lost. And the beautiful Russ Nicholson illustrations both terrified me and made me come back for more. All in all, good times.
So very recently I've re-read the book, this time wanting to make sure I'd manage to do it. I cheated, to save time, mostly battles, keeping my last section mark so I could come back to it if I made a bad call... but I played it straight for the main part, meaning if I didn't discovered an object, and the book asked me if I had it, I didn't lie. There's no satisfaction in just having stuff appear out of thin air: I need to know where it comes from.
Suffice to say, even with some cheating involved I had to read all the book to find everything and do it properly, and I still managed to get lost in the maze of Zagor.
So years later I still love the book, even if I can recognize it's relative simplicity and lack of story. Firetop Mountain is an interesting enough place even with those flaws. What can I say it was love at first sight for me all those years ago, it will always have a place in my heart.
I don't expect my other reviews to be as long... but we'll see. Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 12, 2013 17:34:24 GMT
From TUFFF... Sat down to do this story and was loving it until that maze..
I started mapping it but soon gave up in sheer frustration! I will try again one day..
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 12, 2013 17:35:38 GMT
From TUFFF... You could buy the 25th Anniversary Edition. It comes with a map. Halt, or I shall loose an arrow at you.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 12, 2013 17:38:58 GMT
From TUFFF... Sat down to do this story and was loving it until that maze..
I started mapping it but soon gave up in sheer frustration! I will try again one day.. I've owned this book for years and I still get myself lost. The more beautiful and pure FF is – the more satisfying it is to corrupt it.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 12, 2013 17:41:54 GMT
From TUFFF... I can fully understand why this one gets more attention than it really deserves. Being the book that kicked off the range back in 1981, it is due to be cut a little slack, as Jackson and Livingstone were obviously having to explore their new creation. It's usually the title that people who have only a passing familiarity with FF can name and it's the only one to have spawned two sequels. As Hynreck suggested before, this has more to do with nostalgia than anything else. Had the range began with, say, Citadel of Chaos, and Warlock sat upon for years and released in the Noughties... Well, I think it would just as much reviled as Eye of the Dragon is.
I don't get the first book nostalgia with Warlock myself, it being something like the sixth or seventh that I played. (I'll cover that area when I get around to reviewing Forest of Doom). The storyline is extremely simple: kill Zagor and claim his treasure. This simplicity could earn the book points for being a great book for beginners, to hook them into the range without extra scores/abilities or complex plot webs. However, I feel that the maze can be far too frustrating for first-timers. As a sixth or seventh-timer I got hopelessly lost and got frustrated and then bored when I kept returning to the same locations again and again.
Warlock also suffers from what I call Livingstone logic. Others have referred to the odd way that some books have shops in their dungeons, even though it wouldn't make sense for someone to attempt running a business in such a place. Now, expand that idea to other NPCs, items, etc. Granted there's no shop in Warlock, but why did that group of twee dwarves choose to play cards there? The werewolf guy mentions that supplies have stopped since the river swelled, but merchants travelling all that way into such a dangerous location returns us to the shop problem. Why have a room just for storing two helmets? How did that snake survive in that tiny box with no food or water? Who installed the 'health seat' and why? Who are the skeletons building boats for? Even if we accept that the people who live there (such as the candle guy and the gambler) do so out of eccentricity, where do they sleep, cook, etc? And what do they do all day? Details such as these weaken the emersion as they're plainly there just as devices to cobble a dungeon together rather than as a world that you can believe in.
I feel like I've been doing some rather mean nitpicking, so... On a more positive note, the illustrations seem to be universally adored by FF fans and justifiably so. I love illustrations of cluttered rooms as I enjoy finding the little details. The old guy with his pet gremlin has plenty of cool furniture and a rather nice bookcase (I always end up wondering what the books' titles are...) There's also the old man who likes to sell candles; his Steptoe & Son mess is full of cute details. (I notice that he has a lone Rolo on the table. Perhaps it's his last one). I must also mention that the really nasty ghoul picture is the only thing from FF that I've had unpleasant dreams about. Russ Nicholson at his best. "
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 12, 2013 17:43:25 GMT
From TUFFF... Let's not forget about that nasty ghoul or zombie up close and personal in House of Hell. Nasty.
I always thought that all those "excentricities" amongst the inhabitant of Firetop was what made it somehow work, kind of like a sort of dream logic, like David Lynch loves to do. But granted, the first book gets cut a lot of slack by being first. There are advantages in being a pioneer, after all!
Nice review. Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 12, 2013 17:44:46 GMT
From TUFFF... The only thing that really irritates me is the 'one true set of keys' thing. I have mapped and noted the book in full, so know where all the keys are. As a variant I like to count all of the keys as viable for the chest. If you have any three, you win. Gives a variety of routes through the mountain and makes it believable that a wandering adventurer could complete the quest without mysterious oracular knowledge i.e. you having played it before.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 12, 2013 17:48:02 GMT
From TUFFF... The only thing that really irritates me is the 'one true set of keys' thing. I have mapped and noted the book in full, so know where all the keys are. As a variant I like to count all of the keys as viable for the chest. If you have any three, you win. Gives a variety of routes through the mountain and makes it believable that a wandering adventurer could complete the quest without mysterious oracular knowledge i.e. you having played it before. That's a pretty good idea actually. Might have to try that next time I give it a go. Regarding the keys, is it even possible to get any wrong keys if you have all 3 correct ones? Makes guessing the combination at the end a bit pointless if not. Warlock also suffers from what I call Livingstone logic. The early books do seem pretty devoid of any real logic in their design. For instance, in Citadel of Chaos, Balthus Dire is meant to be raising an army - so where the heck are they all?
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 12, 2013 17:50:53 GMT
From TUFFF... Had the range began with, say, Citadel of Chaos, and Warlock sat upon for years and released in the Noughties... Well, I think it would just as much reviled as Eye of the Dragon is. I think you've just described Robin Waterfield's Deathmoor. You have to read it to believe it: tucked between Legend of Zagor and Knights of Doom (I'm not foo fond of these two books, but I gotta admit the first one is certainly among the best as far as dungeon-crawling goes, and the second one has an involving plot), you've got this oddball with so much plotholes that it should come with a "watch your feet" sign, and showing absolutely no sign of progression since Masks of Mayhem, released eight years (!) before.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 12, 2013 17:52:41 GMT
From TUFFF... I think you've just described Robin Waterfield's Deathmoor. You have to read it to believe it: tucked between Legend of Zagor and Knights of Doom (I'm not foo fond of these two books, but I gotta admit the first one is certainly among the best as far as dungeon-crawling goes, and the second one has an involving plot), you've got this oddball with so much plotholes that it should come with a "watch your feet" sign, and showing absolutely no sign of progression since Masks of Mayhem, released eight years (!) before. I think Deathmoor's very under-rated. There's some very cleverly designed parts to it and I like the monsters and illustrations a lot. There's some great writing as well when Waterfield can be bothered to put the effort in. I also like the idea of you having a rival adventurer even though not much is made of it. I agree with you about the plotholes though - why would King Jonthane refuse to give his goldmines (far from the kingdom's only source of revenue) in exchange for his daughter, yet he'll happily hand over half his kingdom to Fang-Zen (who he describes as "a nasty piece of work") for her rescue?
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 12, 2013 17:54:29 GMT
From TUFFF... There is some clever stuff in Masks of Mayhem too; but it seems to me that Waterfield does not (cannot? is too lazy to?) make the best out of his good ideas. Yes, the beginning of Deathmoor is quite interesting (actually, I think that's the only FF that falls into the "save-the-princess" cliché?), but it soon peters out when you're out in the eponymous moor, which could be rechristened "The Moor of Random Encounters That Make Little Sense and Do Not Last Long Enough to Make Any Impression". (Just noticed the "foo fond" in my previous message. Meh.)
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 12, 2013 17:55:36 GMT
From TUFFF... He does strike me as probably the laziest FF writer. All his books have some great moments where he really shows what he's capable of, but he can never sustain that level.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 12, 2013 18:00:11 GMT
From TUFFF... That's a pretty good idea actually. Might have to try that next time I give it a go. Regarding the keys, is it even possible to get any wrong keys if you have all 3 correct ones? Makes guessing the combination at the end a bit pointless if not. You can have one wrong key and three correct ones if you get the numbered key that's in the boathouse. In the Warlock magazine variant, it's actually impossible to get all three wrong keys on any one trip through the mountain, so the related Instant Death is unreachable.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 12, 2013 18:01:32 GMT
From TUFFF... You can have one wrong key and three correct ones if you get the numbered key that's in the boathouse. Ah yes, I'd forgotten about that one. Seems it would have been an idea to make that key a correct one, bearing in mind it's a bit trickier to get than the others. The snake and minotaur ones are hard to miss and the other is alongside an item that allows you to kill the Zag-man instantly.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 12, 2013 18:07:18 GMT
From TUFFF... Just an idle curiosity here, what are you meant to do if you beat Zagor and only have 1 key?
The door has 2 locks, and any 2 keys will open them. If you have 0 keys, it lets you break down the door for 5 stamina loss. It's fairly inconsequential in that if you only have 1 key you're going to lose anyway but it seems like a bit of a gap in the available options. Here's the relevant section. "You retrieve two keys from your pack and try them in the locks. They turn! You open the door and peer round. Turn to 242. If you have no keys, you may try to break down the door, and this you will do at the cost of almost all your stamina. Reduce your stamina by 5 and enter the room." I figure there's 3 possible outcomes. 1) None of the options apply to you so it's game over as you have no way to leave the current reference.
2) If every key works in both locks, you can just unlock them one at a time and go through the door.
3) You need 2 keys to open the door but don't have them. Common sense suggests that having a key doesn't stop you breaking down a door, so you do that. Thoughts?
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Sept 30, 2014 19:54:58 GMT
I may as well begin by sharing my thoughts on the first book in the series. Note that I'll assume people know these books a bit by now so I won't waffle on with a full in-depth review.
I re-read Warlock recently and noticed a rule I never incorporated before. Apparently, I can't eat Provisions whenever I'm not in combat like I always do in the later books. You can only eat 1 meal at a time only when instructed. This actually makes a lot more sense than munching away at a whole portable buffet in dangerous territory, and I suspect Steve may have written the rules regarding this.
It's not a particularly hard book to reach the end with, but the gathering of the correct keys is the biggest challenge. This adventure is filled with red herrings. It took me quite a while to figure out the routes and keys I needed and my adventurer failed many times in doing so. What I love is that the false paths don't feel any different to the true path and it won't be till you reach the end that you realise you've missed something.
All the encounters you come across are incredibly rich too, something that is perhaps lacking in many of the later titles. The room with the Zombies seems normal enough, until you are aware that they are all staring upwards, they carry different weapons (doesn't matter that this is not implemented during combat), and that corpse in the corner didn't get there by itself. And then there's the man and his dog; except that the man isn't a normal man, and the dog isn't a normal dog either. It's these wonderfully simple yet quirky encounters that stick in the memory and elevate a relatively basic adventure into something truly special.
Sure the book is not without it's flaws. Decent attributes scores are important if you want to get anywhere but this rings true for the majority of FF gamebooks. The plot and gameplay are quite plain but is backed up with solid storytelling which is just what this adventure needs to be as the first of it's kind.
All in all, a good introduction to the world of Titan that leaves readers wanting much more of the same.
6 out of 10
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Post by champskees on Oct 1, 2014 6:32:52 GMT
Yeah, I think a lot of people have missed that important point. In fact it makes survival quite tricky if you barely made it out of the Cyclops fight.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,465
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Oct 2, 2014 15:24:06 GMT
Yes, there's a couple of other books that use this rule - Battleblade Warrior and Spectral Stalkers I think. Maybe all the PDE books come to think of it. Spellbreaker looks like it may have had this rule at some stage but it was later ditched as there are a few references to being able to eat now.
With WoFM, you get 2 sips of potion and can use it in battle which more than makes up for the provisions rule!
After reading some of You Are the Hero, it seems the fairness of WoFM really had nothing to do with Steve and Ian and everything to do with Philippa Dickinson, the editor. Pity she wasn't able to do the same for the majority of the later books!
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Post by a moderator on Oct 3, 2014 1:00:59 GMT
A lot of the first batch of Wizard Books reissues used the rules from TWoFM rather than the ones that were originally in the subsequent books. This added new difficulties for by-the-rules players, as the later books didn't specify when Provisions could be eaten, so it was technically impossible to ever do so. Getting a second dose of potion wasn't much compensation.
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Post by The Editor (Alex B) on Oct 3, 2014 4:04:03 GMT
Yes, there's a couple of other books that use this rule - Battleblade Warrior and Spectral Stalkers I think. Maybe all the PDE books come to think of it. Spellbreaker looks like it may have had this rule at some stage but it was later ditched as there are a few references to being able to eat now. BW - Carry a maximum of 4, can eat only 1 at a time. SS - No Provisions rules.
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Post by paltogue on Oct 3, 2014 6:59:24 GMT
A lot of the first batch of Wizard Books reissues used the rules from TWoFM rather than the ones that were originally in the subsequent books. This added new difficulties for by-the-rules players, as the later books didn't specify when Provisions could be eaten, so it was technically impossible to ever do so. Getting a second dose of potion wasn't much compensation. I think criminal proceedings should be opened against whoever was responsible for that blunder!
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,465
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Oct 3, 2014 12:24:26 GMT
Really? My memory has got much worse! There definitely are a couple of others that use that rule though.
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Post by a moderator on Oct 3, 2014 19:21:26 GMT
Spectral Stalkers does have Provisions rules. While the book implies rather than states that you can only eat when told you may, it does make it clear that you may only eat one meal at a time. So the 'win in just a few sections by letting the Stalkers catch you' path requires you to lose 3d6 Stamina, of which you can recover only 4, just before needing to roll under your Stamina on 6d6. Somehow I doubt that the people who call this the easy path actually bother using dice.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 6, 2014 11:53:19 GMT
A lot of the first batch of Wizard Books reissues used the rules from TWoFM rather than the ones that were originally in the subsequent books. This added new difficulties for by-the-rules players, as the later books didn't specify when Provisions could be eaten, so it was technically impossible to ever do so. Getting a second dose of potion wasn't much compensation. It does seem rather unfair, given all the other damage that the books inflict on your health, to lumber you with anorexia as well.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Jul 23, 2015 15:33:50 GMT
A simple and fantastic book. Not so good as City of Thieves, Deathtrap Dungeon, Crypt of the Sorcerer, and a lot of others however.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jun 27, 2017 13:08:36 GMT
Yeah, I think a lot of people have missed that important point. In fact it makes survival quite tricky if you barely made it out of the Cyclops fight. This is really strange as your solution breaks the very rule you mention above.
Also I think you miss one of the opportunities to eat a meal.
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