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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jun 27, 2017 21:25:32 GMT
I am replying to myself but solution now made more readable and a bit more logical.
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Post by offm on Jun 28, 2017 14:21:53 GMT
One Thing i regret the most is having lost all fighting fantasy books in my youth, well today i bought Warlock that has got reissued recently in my mother tongue - One more step to immortality i guess
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Nov 12, 2017 23:49:25 GMT
I have had a good read of the new Champskees solution and to quote The Great Escape it is so good it is indecent.
Champskees seems to be posting generalised solutions with statistical data and then we can make our own minds up.
The only thing I might do is apply it to my 7-14-7 solution. As is fairly obvious I have a 'mindset' where I take a 7-14-7 or 9-14-7 and so on through a system.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Dec 14, 2017 14:13:27 GMT
I am in autistic pedantic mode yet again.
I have noticed something a bit odd about the swim options in Champskees solution. If you are very unlucky the swim option will be automatically activated as you will have 7/7/7 so this is the 7+ option against 5 skill and 5 stamina Piranhas which should be a crushing advantage. Is the -1 damage option even necessary when it is a negative outcome plus there is no option to eat provisions? It is unlikely but you could end up in a Groundhog Day masochistic self-defeating eternal return.
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Post by champskees on Dec 15, 2017 9:18:28 GMT
I am in autistic pedantic mode yet again. I have noticed something a bit odd about the swim options in Champskees solution. If you are very unlucky the swim option will be automatically activated as you will have 7/7/7 so this is the 7+ option against 5 skill and 5 stamina Piranhas which should be a crushing advantage. Is the -1 damage option even necessary when it is a negative outcome plus there is no option to eat provisions? It is unlikely but you could end up in a Groundhog Day masochistic self-defeating eternal return. Probably not. It actually makes no difference (<0.1%) in the code whether you take damage or not, read into that as you wish. But I checked the option to eat provisions and I believe you are incorrect. Last line of para 316.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Dec 15, 2017 19:15:40 GMT
I am in autistic pedantic mode yet again. I have noticed something a bit odd about the swim options in Champskees solution. If you are very unlucky the swim option will be automatically activated as you will have 7/7/7 so this is the 7+ option against 5 skill and 5 stamina Piranhas which should be a crushing advantage. Is the -1 damage option even necessary when it is a negative outcome plus there is no option to eat provisions? It is unlikely but you could end up in a Groundhog Day masochistic self-defeating eternal return. Probably not. It actually makes no difference (<0.1%) in the code whether you take damage or not, read into that as you wish. But I checked the option to eat provisions and I believe you are incorrect. Last line of para 316. I think you are probably right it is marginal. As to the second point I think it is a bit tricky. 218=Swim option. 316=2d6 <=stamina=swim furiously for the NORTH BANK to 151 >stamina=you decide not to risk it and head to the SOUTH BANK. You may eat provisions on the SOUTH BANK to 218(My emphasis) Next if 316 to 151 then you are given more options. If you decide you'd rather not then...-1 stamina to 218. Conclusion if you go 218-316-151-218 then at no point are you allowed to eat provisions. This is my reasoning so it is always better to risk the Piranhas as you have a +2 advantage and on your own system even if you are pathologically unlucky you will be 7/7/7.
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Post by marblefigure on Apr 23, 2019 20:47:18 GMT
You are right. To eat provisions on the south bank, you have to either fail the 2d6 stamina test, or fight a piranha shoal and win.
Is there any other gamebook where the player character is the villain, or is this the only one? Has anyone here played every single one?
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Post by daredevil123 on Apr 23, 2019 21:27:26 GMT
The player character is a murderous pirate in Seas of Blood.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,465
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Apr 24, 2019 9:32:11 GMT
Is there any other gamebook where the player character is the villain, or is this the only one? Not really where you are the sole villain trying to beat a hero, but there are a few books where the player character is at least somewhat villainous: In Scorpion Swamp, you can serve an evil wizard (although you can do so whilst remaining relatively good if you choose). As mentioned, in Seas of Blood, you're a pirate. You can even sell innocents into slavery in that one. Rebel Planet is an interesting one. You're presented as the good guy but if you consider the background where humans were conquering planets and wiping out native species, the Arcadians are arguably the lesser evil. Plus, committing essentially genocide to free humanity seems an extreme measure. In Midnight Rogue you play a thief, but you don't really do anything that evil in it. While you're definitely a good guy in Legend of the Shadow Warriors, you are technically a tax dodger. Yep, apart from most of the Warlock magazine adventures if you count them. Actually in one of them (Rogue Mage) you play a criminal offered his/her freedom if they track down the villain.
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Post by schlendrian on Apr 24, 2019 19:04:53 GMT
Is there any other gamebook where the player character is the villain, or is this the only one? Has anyone here played every single one? I guess the owners of all those houses that you break into in the course of many FF adventures (CoT comes to mind) would have a very strong opinion of their own on this matter.
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Post by marblefigure on Apr 25, 2019 17:29:39 GMT
Yes, a lot of player characters do questionable things without being the villain. The player in City of Thieves can do a lot of burglary, but ultimately they are fighting on the side of good, not like in Warlock of Firetop Mountain.
Anyway, back on the topic of the gamebook mechanics, I have a couple of small nitpicks, even though, despite being the first, it is one of the better designed and balanced ones. The player should actually have to fight the Warlock at the end to receive some punishment. The jewel should only have the property of aging him, and it should have that effect on his portrait first as foreshadowing. That would complete the whole theme of the confusion as to whether the Warlock is young or old, and the fact that he chooses to appear as an old man to begin with. Being aged should just weaken him.
Secondly, there should be a key to the armory in the snake box, so the player can enter it easily. For skill 7 characters, there should be a magic gauntlet that gives a bonus of +1 attack strength to characters with skill below 8. Then the magic sword in the zombie room should grant an attack strength bonus instead of a skill bonus. So then a skill 7 player character could have an effective combat skill of 10.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Apr 25, 2019 22:23:53 GMT
Yes, a lot of player characters do questionable things without being the villain. The player in City of Thieves can do a lot of burglary, but ultimately they are fighting on the side of good, not like in Warlock of Firetop Mountain. Anyway, back on the topic of the gamebook mechanics, I have a couple of small nitpicks, even though, despite being the first, it is one of the better designed and balanced ones. The player should actually have to fight the Warlock at the end to receive some punishment. The jewel should only have the property of aging him, and it should have that effect on his portrait first as foreshadowing. That would complete the whole theme of the confusion as to whether the Warlock is young or old, and the fact that he chooses to appear as an old man to begin with. Being aged should just weaken him. Secondly, there should be a key to the armory in the snake box, so the player can enter it easily. For skill 7 characters, there should be a magic gauntlet that gives a bonus of +1 attack strength to characters with skill below 8. Then the magic sword in the zombie room should grant an attack strength bonus instead of a skill bonus. So then a skill 7 player character could have an effective combat skill of 10. I think I agree this is one of the better balanced books but I am not sure about your later point. I do not know this book like the back of my hand but the sword is one of the better skill boosts in the entire series. It is a genuine +2 to initial skill and skill unlike the sword near the watery thingy I cannot remember. This means the later fight with the erm Barbarian is at least on parity in my parsimonious system.
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Post by a moderator on Apr 25, 2019 23:28:22 GMT
The Barbarian is before the Zombie encounter. Were you thinking of the Minotaur?
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Post by marblefigure on Apr 26, 2019 6:31:12 GMT
Remember my idea of introducing a gauntlet that only boosts the attack strength of those with skill below 8 - the magic sword unfortunately could not raise initial skill to fit with that idea.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Apr 26, 2019 12:52:25 GMT
Remember my idea of introducing a gauntlet that only boosts the attack strength of those with skill below 8 - the magic sword unfortunately could not raise initial skill to fit with that idea. That sounds irrational as the +2 skill sword benefits anybody irrespective of attributes. You almost seem to be arguing the +2 skill sword is not a genuine skill boost when it clearly is meaning it boosts your attack strength as well so the Minotaur is on parity. Your argument seems to apply to later books such as Deathtrap or Lizard where the skill boosts are ambiguous to our endless chagrin.
This is bizarre when compared to many later books where the lack of consistency really is an issue.
I believe the sword near some sort of watery thing is only a skill bonus but fortunately it is on a false path.
Even with 7/14/7 you have a 20% of victory which is reasonable especially compared to Crypt where with 12/24/12 it is 1/200 chance of success.
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Post by schlendrian on Apr 26, 2019 13:50:32 GMT
Yes, a lot of player characters do questionable things without being the villain. The player in City of Thieves can do a lot of burglary, but ultimately they are fighting on the side of good, not like in Warlock of Firetop Mountain. That is correct, but not fighting on the side of good doesn't make you automatically a villain in my book. The hero in TWoFM is not plotting the demise of the world or a community nor does he have any plans to fight on the side of evil or anything, he wants to enter a place where he assumes treasure and is prepared to kill anyone opposing him in his goals. He may not be nice, granted, but he is not more of a villain than Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser are. Or Conan.
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Post by marblefigure on Apr 27, 2019 13:07:34 GMT
Anyone who sets out to kill an old man in order to steal his money is a villain in my book. The narrator in A Clockwork Orange did stuff like that, and he's the definitive example of 'Villain Protagonist.'
@johnbrawn - Sorry, it is in my nature to nitpick, even though Warlock of Firetop Mountain was one of the better Fighting Fantasies gameplaywise. What I meant was that it would have been perfected if skill 7 characters had had some kind of extra help which other characters didn't. Even if it was something on a par with that strange salesman lurking in the dungeon selling an attack strength boost specifically for skill 7 burglars.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Apr 27, 2019 18:33:59 GMT
This is a call to Champskees and I do not know the mathematics but I feel it is always better to attack the Piranhas as you will be 7/7/7 even if you are pathologically unlucky.
I feel this is the better option as you are not denuding your stamina without the possibility of eating a meal.
I do not know if this will increase the percentages but it is worth a go?
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Post by The Count on Mar 8, 2020 20:26:30 GMT
Most of my knowledge of this book comes from reading about it as I'd only ever played it a few times after getting it from the library about 30 years ago - and all I remember of those attempts is being killed by the ghoul and being so horribly frustrated by the maze that I gave up and went back to one of the others I borrowed at the same time.
So trying it again, the first half was pleasant though I knew I had missed a key, the maze still annoying and as I'd rolled a Skill of 12, was in little danger of losing a battle despite having minimal Stamina and Luck. So I smacked the chest with my sword at the end and promptly died.
Has better reply value than I thought.
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Post by The Count on Apr 6, 2021 2:19:42 GMT
I had another go at this over the weekend and still missed the second key. Died fighting the Minotaur anyway.
This must be the easiest book that I've failed to complete.
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kieran
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Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Apr 6, 2021 7:44:16 GMT
Finding the second key is definitely the trickiest aspect.
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sylas
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"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Apr 6, 2021 16:26:04 GMT
Finding the second key is definitely the trickiest aspect. The other two are fairly unmissable whereas the Cyclops key requires two correct back to back decisions.
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Post by firebead on Sept 5, 2021 11:09:34 GMT
I'm playing the Fighting Fantasy Classic app and, confronting it with my Puffin copy, I see there are some minor differences. I've read the Classic app of Caverns of the Snow Witch and in that case there were some changes: some of them where clearly due to rebalance (like reducing the stats of the Yeti), while others were due to limitations of the game app. In this case, though, I'm not sure which are the motives after this changes... does anyone know if something has been changed in the book from the first Puffin edition to the Scholastic ones, or the changes had been done only by Tin Man Games?
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Post by The Editor (Alex B) on Sept 6, 2021 1:47:31 GMT
I'm playing the Fighting Fantasy Classic app and, confronting it with my Puffin copy, I see there are some minor differences. I've read the Classic app of Caverns of the Snow Witch and in that case there were some changes: some of them where clearly due to rebalance (like reducing the stats of the Yeti), while others were due to limitations of the game app. In this case, though, I'm not sure which are the motives after this changes... does anyone know if something has been changed in the book from the first Puffin edition to the Scholastic ones, or the changes had been done only by Tin Man Games? Can you give an example of a change?
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Post by firebead on Sept 6, 2021 21:45:48 GMT
I'm playing the Fighting Fantasy Classic app and, confronting it with my Puffin copy, I see there are some minor differences. I've read the Classic app of Caverns of the Snow Witch and in that case there were some changes: some of them where clearly due to rebalance (like reducing the stats of the Yeti), while others were due to limitations of the game app. In this case, though, I'm not sure which are the motives after this changes... does anyone know if something has been changed in the book from the first Puffin edition to the Scholastic ones, or the changes had been done only by Tin Man Games? Can you give an example of a change? Of course, this is just a small sample of the changes in WoFTM: 55: You roll 2 dice and confront the result only with your Luck, not with your Stamina too. 65: No penalty for Escaping. 116: There is no more the option for Escaping the fight. 125: You can examine the rubble, if you haven’t already.
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Post by firebead on Sept 16, 2021 6:03:29 GMT
These are all, I believe, the changes made to the Fighting Fantasy Classic App:
12: After you defeat the creature at 161, you go straight away at 256 (you cannot anymore choose to go directly at 364). 17: If you are Unlucky, the Vampire doesn’t lose 3 STAMINA anymore. If you Escape, you don’t lose 2 STAMINA anymore. 24: You now reach this par. if you got hit 3 times by the Wight BUT only if you defeat it. -1 SKILL, +2 LUCK, and gain 18 gold pieces. 27: You automatically gain the Steel sword and cannot choose to discard it anymore. 32: You don’t gain 2 LUCK anymore. 34: You automatically gain the Mallet and the Silver chisel without discarding any item you are carrying. 39: You gain only +1 at Attack Strength (instead of 2); when the Warlock hits you, he simply does only 1 STAMINA damage (you don’t roll anymore to see if he does 2, 1 or 0 STAMINA damage). This is because the app cannot run fights with special rules. 55: You roll 2 dice and confront the result only with your Luck, not with your Stamina too. 65: No penalty for Escaping. 86: If you manage to win in 2 Rounds, go straight away to 7 (the Puffin edition failed to take in account that you can actually kill an enemy with 6 STAMINA in just 2 rounds). If after 2 Rounds you decide to go to 350, you don’t have to fight an extra Round anymore. 91: This paragraph is now unreachable (see below, par. 100). 100: You can only play fairly now, thus going to 346: in this way, the par. 91 becomes unreachable. 105: In this paragraph there are options for attacking the Warlock and for searching the room, since you may not have any of the items described. 109: The effects of the HOLY WATER have been augmented: now it restores your STAMINA and SKILL to Initial levels. 110: This paragraph is now unreachable (for more, see par. 221). 116: There is no more the option of Escaping the fight. 125: You can examine the stick by going to 328, if you haven’t already. 130: If you win a bet, you don’t gain any SKILL, STAMINA or LUCK points anymore. 139: On the chest it is inscribed the number ‘321’: an hint on the correct keys. 140: You fight the SKELETONs one at a time (this change is because the app cannot run fight against more than one opponent). 143: If you Escape you don’t lose 1 Provision anymore. 155: Since you start with a Shield, you leave it behind when you gain the Crescent shield. 166: You now simply return to 218. 173: Since the fight against the Wight has been reworked, this par. is now unreachable (see 310 for more). 188: You can’t Escape anymore. 195/9: You don’t gain 2 LUCK anymore. 198: There isn’t a Test your Luck anymore; you simply lose 2 STAMINA. In this way, guessing only 1 or 2 keys has the same result. 211: Since the fight against the Wight has been reworked, this par. is now unreachable (see 310 for more). 218: You can only choose each option one time only. 221: You don’t have the option to choose the gold anymore, since you automatically gain 8 Gold Pieces the paragraph before (313). In this way, par. 110 becomes unreachable. 243: You choose which hand you used, and after the choice you have to roll 1d6. If you chose the right hand and roll 1-3, you lose 3 SKILL and 1 STAMINA; otherwise, you lose 1 SKILL and 2 STAMINA. If you chose the left hand and roll an odd number, you lose 3 SKILL and 1 STAMINA, otherwise you lose 1 SKILL and 2 STAMINA. 249: The app cannot run fights with special rules, so the DOG simply does 3 damage. 282: You now fight the ZOMBIE with axe before the ZOMBIE with pick. You now gain 2 LUCK not after the first fight, but after killing all four ZOMBIEs. 310: The fight against the Wight has been totally reworked, unnecessarily making it more difficult. At this paragraph, you are asked if you have a silver weapon (the bow, the crucifix or the chisel); if you don’t have any, you can only Escape to 360 (without sustaining another Attack Round). If you choose to use the bow, you cross it off and Test your Luck: if you are Lucky, you win immediately and go to 135. Otherwise, you have to Escape or use another silver weapon. If you use the chisel, you’ll have to fight the WIGHT, but your SKILL will be reduced by 1. If you use the crucifix, you’ll only make 1 damage to the enemy. If you win, you’ll go to 135. Now, you go to 24 only if you got hit 3 times AND defeat the enemy. 313: You now gain automatically the 8 gold pieces; in this way, at. 221, you can choose only between the shield, the sword, the armour and the crucifix. 333: If you are Unlucky when you Escape, you now go simply to 224. 344: The Gleaming Sword adds 1 SKILL above Initial level. 346: You can’t Test your Luck anymore; if you win, you don’t gain 2 LUCK anymore. 348: If you have the Potion of Invisibility, you can choose if use it or not. 350: As always, the app cannot run complex fight, so you simply fight the CROCODILE (always at STAMINA 6, no less) and then the PIRANHAS. However, you don’t gain 1 LUCK anymore. 396: Now, you reach 242 no matter what, without any STAMINA loss.
NOTES: You start with a shield. You can consume a Provision wherever you want, but each starting Potion contains only one dose.
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Post by a moderator on Sept 16, 2021 12:07:59 GMT
In the book, the crucifix and the Wight are on mutually exclusive paths, and there don't appear to be any changes listed that would now make it possible to obtain the crucifix and then encounter the Wight, so I don't get why using it is even an option at 310.
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Post by firebead on Sept 16, 2021 18:22:22 GMT
In the book, the crucifix and the Wight are on mutually exclusive paths, and there don't appear to be any changes listed that would now make it possible to obtain the crucifix and then encounter the Wight, so I don't get why using it is even an option at 310. Well spotted! You are right, and I don't think another crucifix has been added anywhere else. Probably the option was put in there "just to be sure".
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Post by CharlesX on Sept 16, 2021 18:35:16 GMT
In the book, the crucifix and the Wight are on mutually exclusive paths, and there don't appear to be any changes listed that would now make it possible to obtain the crucifix and then encounter the Wight, so I don't get why using it is even an option at 310. Well spotted! You are right, and I don't think another crucifix has been added anywhere else. Probably the option was put in there "just to be sure". There's always the cheat mode 😉.
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Post by firebead on Sept 16, 2021 19:42:50 GMT
Well spotted! You are right, and I don't think another crucifix has been added anywhere else. Probably the option was put in there "just to be sure". There's always the cheat mode 😉. That's right too! (Albeit we prefer to call it "Free Game Mode"! )
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