Can an FF with different character classes work?

[CharlesX]

Scorpion Swamp proved an FF with a different alignment & master system could work, even if it weren't perfect. Yet Legend Of Zagor is regarded, even by fans, as below-average, partly because the magic system isn't the best, and the character system puts the magic-user at a 'distinct disadvantage' (understatement). Do you think FFs with a character class system can work, perhaps because LOZ got the execution wrong? Would it help\make a difference to include women and\or non-whites (Stubble is debatable, but he is considered a weak character)?
   Yes, there are ready-made characters at the back of some FFs. These suffer the same imbalance problem, I compared some with the Champskees algorithm and their chances of survival vary as much as 50%.
   In SOTA, you can learn a specific skill which gives your character a huge advantage. Perhaps it could be so for being a cleric, mage, ranger or rogue.

[tyrion]

Blood sword manages to include four different classes, although again the magic used is the weakest of the four. A gamebook designed for different classes needs to be designed with this in mind, not have it shoehorned in as a gimmick.

[nathanh]

I don't think FF's game mechanics are complicated enough to really support classes in a particularly meaningful and balanced way. The ones where you pick a few special skills are often good, so you'd probably want to do something similar, but once you start doing that, why not just not drop the classes and let people pick a few skills freely?

[sleepyscholar]

Sept 23, 2021 17:28:26 GMT nathanh said:

I don't think FF's game mechanics are complicated enough to really support classes in a particularly meaningful and balanced way. The ones where you pick a few special skills are often good, so you'd probably want to do something similar, but once you start doing that, why not just not drop the classes and let people pick a few skills freely?

I agree.

To be honest, I never really liked the 'character class' idea for RPGs either.

When I planned to do this (for Wailing World) I was more interested in the idea of providing a sort of skeletal backstory, than in the purely mechanical aspects of having skills. For example, one of the roles you could choose was a sidekick to a big hero who, the big hero having died of a stomach upset, steps up to impersonate the big hero. I thought it would be fun to have someone who was aware of not quite being qualified -- of 'busking' as a hero -- and so who would have options to use bullshit and trickery to get out of situations. Of course, those who sort of regarded their FF persona as their 'own character' would be able to choose a more 'transparent' role to project into.

Could this have been influenced by the fact that I was, at the same time, writing a Virtual Reality (now Critical IF) book too?

[CharlesX]

I think we've possibly half-forgotten about Sorcery!, in which a PC can be either a Wizard or a Warrior. The Wizard is definitely more fun to play, but I think it'd be a worse book without the warrior option, not only because it adds replay value. I think this sort of thing has been said elsewhere, though.

[sylas]

Sept 24, 2021 0:02:01 GMT sleepyscholar said:

Sept 23, 2021 17:28:26 GMT nathanh said:

I don't think FF's game mechanics are complicated enough to really support classes in a particularly meaningful and balanced way. The ones where you pick a few special skills are often good, so you'd probably want to do something similar, but once you start doing that, why not just not drop the classes and let people pick a few skills freely?

I agree.

To be honest, I never really liked the 'character class' idea for RPGs either.

When I planned to do this (for Wailing World) I was more interested in the idea of providing a sort of skeletal backstory, than in the purely mechanical aspects of having skills. For example, one of the roles you could choose was a sidekick to a big hero who, the big hero having died of a stomach upset, steps up to impersonate the big hero. I thought it would be fun to have someone who was aware of not quite being qualified -- of 'busking' as a hero -- and so who would have options to use bullshit and trickery to get out of situations. Of course, those who sort of regarded their FF persona as their 'own character' would be able to choose a more 'transparent' role to project into.

Could this have been influenced by the fact that I was, at the same time, writing a Virtual Reality (now Critical IF) book too?

So any chance we might see a completed Red Dragon Pass in the future?

[The Count]

I think they work in individual books as stand alone characters - eg Citadel of Chaos (Wizard), Midnight Rogue (Thief), Phantoms of Fear (Ranger / Mage), Siege of Sardath (Ranger), Dead of Night (Paladin), Deathtrap Dungeon (Warrior / Adventurer).

However, they don't work quite as well in Legend of Zagor, though that is mainly down to requiring the Wizard to win an attack round to use his most destructive spells, with every other non Wizard character using magic. Further, the other three are just variations on Warrior / Adventurer with different stat limits. A few more skills to fully differentiate them and less use of magic would have worked better.

[vastariner]

Everyone's missing the obvious one - Appointment With FEAR...warrior, artificer (ETS), sorcerer (energy blast), magician (psionic).

[CharlesX]

Oct 2, 2021 8:27:17 GMT vastariner said:

Everyone's missing the obvious one - Appointment With FEAR...warrior, artificer (ETS), sorcerer (energy blast), magician (psionic).

They are to me different skills not different classes, but I'm a bit of a pedant and over 50% of fellow FF fans will probably disagree. I personally dislike Appointment with FEAR, for reasons johnbrawn1972 might cite; it's a train track, linear aside from the choice of skill in the beginning, with minimal opportunity to either try out different paths or for variables which either affect your own Avatar or your enemies ones.

[sleepyscholar]

Oct 1, 2021 15:02:49 GMT sylas said:

Sept 24, 2021 0:02:01 GMT sleepyscholar said:

I agree.

To be honest, I never really liked the 'character class' idea for RPGs either.

When I planned to do this (for Wailing World) I was more interested in the idea of providing a sort of skeletal backstory, than in the purely mechanical aspects of having skills. For example, one of the roles you could choose was a sidekick to a big hero who, the big hero having died of a stomach upset, steps up to impersonate the big hero. I thought it would be fun to have someone who was aware of not quite being qualified -- of 'busking' as a hero -- and so who would have options to use bullshit and trickery to get out of situations. Of course, those who sort of regarded their FF persona as their 'own character' would be able to choose a more 'transparent' role to project into.

Could this have been influenced by the fact that I was, at the same time, writing a Virtual Reality (now Critical IF) book too?

So any chance we might see a completed Red Dragon Pass in the future?

I'm afraid it's unlikely, though the possibility has gone up a notch with my recent decision to finish Outlaws of the Water Margin (which doesn't have character classes).

[vastariner]

Oct 2, 2021 14:06:45 GMT CharlesX said:

Oct 2, 2021 8:27:17 GMT vastariner said:

Everyone's missing the obvious one - Appointment With FEAR...warrior, artificer (ETS), sorcerer (energy blast), magician (psionic).

They are to me different skills not different classes, but I'm a bit of a pedant and over 50% of fellow FF fans will probably disagree. I personally dislike Appointment with FEAR, for reasons johnbrawn1972 might cite; it's a train track, linear aside from the choice of skill in the beginning, with minimal opportunity to either try out different paths or for variables which either affect your own Avatar or your enemies ones.

The emphasis in FEAR is on the writing and the world, rather than the adventure.  That makes sense in context because the Crusader is not visiting places with which they are unfamiliar.  But is different skills v different classes a difference without a distinction?

[The Count]

Oct 1, 2021 6:48:59 GMT CharlesX said:

I think we've possibly half-forgotten about Sorcery!, in which a PC can be either a Wizard or a Warrior. The Wizard is definitely more fun to play, but I think it'd be a worse book without the warrior option, not only because it adds replay value. I think this sort of thing has been said elsewhere, though.

Sorcery is probably even worse than LoZ for character class. The Wizard needs to collect an insane level of complete and utter tat in order to possibly cast a spell that might not even work, and the Warrior seems like an afterthought. You can end up with a Wizard that is far better in combat than the Warrior, the series is far too easy for a Wizard - a Skill 5 Wizard has a far better chance than a Skill 9 Warrior.

[bloodbeasthandler]

I think different character classes or types could be successful, but the author will have his or her work cut out to make it work. It must be hard enough to balance these books in the first place without bringing different classes into it, and one where skill is d6+4 or whatever.  

As Tyrion said, you've got Bloodsword as an example. And again as he says the magic-user is potentially the weakest of the four types if alone... but when working as a team the wizard gets shielded by the others and starts casting spells and makes the group as a whole more powerful. 

I think the best thing would be to simply have more books like Midnight Rogue where stealth and cunning and avoiding combat could be emphasised, or Sorcery, or ones where you can pick skills like Critical IF where what you select can and ought to shape the decisions you make.