Is Spectral Stalkers SF FF

[CharlesX]

In the new year I intend to try a new straight SF poll along with a comprehensive, kitchen-sink poll which will include all FF set on non-Titan worlds, SF, present-day and others. Even Titannica considers Spectral Stalkers 'set' on Titan, but you are taken outside it IIRC and the atmosphere is other-worldly. Therefore, is Spectral Stalkers among SF FF, among non-Titan FF, or neither, or both?
   You may vote twice, and polling ends December 31 11:30 p.m.

[nathanh]

I would put it as "fantasy with some futuristic elements" which I would consider a separate thing to sci-fi. Although it is set on Titan I would classify it as non-Titan because I don't think the concept of the Aleph and the multiverse is easy to reconcile with all of the other established lore about Titan and its mythology. If I were writing a gamebook set on Titan, I would not spend a moment worrying about continuity and consistency with Spectral Stalkers, but I would for any other Titan-set book.

[thealmightymudworm]

This is an interesting question and I'm slightly surprised that more people don't think of SS as sci-fi. I think I always sort of have done even before becoming aware of PDE's link to Doctor Who. The influence could hardly be more obvious given that the aleph functions in a similar way to a TARDIS for the user even if it is described as being entirely different.

If SS isn't sci-fi, what strong reason is there which makes it ineligible, and what genre is a better fit? Is it better described as atypical fantasy than atypical sci-fi? The case in favour of it being SF is easy to make:

- Features teleportation and time travel. The latter in particular is almost never used in other genres such as fantasy. True, there may be the odd case such as time being rewound for you by the gods in ToD, but that is rare, and travel into the future must be rarer still. Teleportation takes place not only using the mysterious aleph but also using a 'transporter'.

- Features robots such as the Grappler, and Lost Property on Limbo

- Features a cyborg (distantly resembling Davros) in the form of Metron the Mapmaker

- Mentions 'microparticles' (atoms or subatomic particles) in the sentence 'And by all the microparticles in the Macrocosmos!'

- Repeatedly mentions 'science' (e.g. Metron again)

- The whole name and concept of the Telopticon, which is based around a metal hoop, helmets and wires

- Techie traps such as the steps up to Globus which clearly give electrical shocks or the metal warriors which focus sunlight on you (257 & 258, conveniently)

- Different aliens especially humanoids in different worlds (arguably different types of living beings in different places is just as typical of fantasy, but come on, show the illustration of the Ranganathans (one of the earliest in the book) to anyone: those are aliens, not fantasy monsters.

Of course there are counterarguments: your main enemy is an Archmage and magic is referred to as if real several times throughout the book. Likewise there are some creatures such as elves and goblins, but I don't think it's sufficient.

Sci-fi doesn't often allow magic to exist unchallenged or unanalysed – my recollection is that any reference to wizards or similar in shows like Star Trek was likely to be followed by the discovery of technology or natural phenomena on which they/it relies. But sci-fi is not allergic to magic and other mysterious, religious or paranormal powers. At one level "magic is science we don't understand" as the quote goes. So for example thinking of the Sylvester McCoy Doctor Who's from my youth, in Battlefield the Doctor is recognised as having gone by the name 'Merlin' with no further explanation. The story also features summonings and the protective power of a chalk circle. In Silver Nemesis one of the antagonists achieves time travel forward from the C17th by the use of 'black magic' involving human blood. Rather more famously, The Force in Star Wars is essentially a religious supernatural concept.

[The Count]

Dec 30, 2021 0:15:37 GMT thealmightymudworm said:

Sci-fi doesn't often allow magic to exist unchallenged or unanalysed – my recollection is that any reference to wizards or similar in shows like Star Trek was likely to be followed by the discovery of technology or natural phenomena on which they/it relies. But sci-fi is not allergic to magic and other mysterious, religious or paranormal powers. At one level "magic is science we don't understand" as the quote goes. So for example thinking of the Sylvester McCoy Doctor Who's from my youth, in Battlefield the Doctor is recognised as having gone by the name 'Merlin' with no further explanation. The story also features summonings and the protective power of a chalk circle. In Silver Nemesis one of the antagonists achieves time travel forward from the C17th by the use of 'black magic' involving human blood. Rather more famously, The Force in Star Wars is essentially a religious supernatural concept.

Or Psychic Powers in 40K, especially when warpcraft is frequently referred to as sorcery - though this is usually only when it is deemed to be heretical / alien - and it was always explicitly stated that the psykers and Primarch of the Thousand Sons practiced and studied sorcery even before they turned to Chaos.

[vastariner]

I'm going to put the non-sci-fi argument forward.

The Syrian stand-up comic Lucian had a thing called the True History. Its opening says "nothing in this is true". In it, the narrator travels up to the moon, and meets the lunar inhabitants, including the king.

The book also includes other journeys, including to an island of grapes in a sea of wine, an island of cheese in a sea of milk, a sojourn inside a whale's stomach, and a land of lamps on the other side of the world.

Some have said that that is the first-ever work of sci-fi, because of the space journey. First ever? Yes, it dates back to the 2nd century AD.

But IS it sci-fi? No - it is a parody of literature. Travel, history, and religious literature. Lucian is not trying to create a separate world for us to enjoy, he's not immersing the narrator in a familiar world, or even a familiar trope; he's taking the mickey.

I'm not saying SS is also a parody. But there is a similarity (and the writing is light and knowing enough). The moon episode in the True History is a diversion from the normal earth-bound journey. In the same way, Spectral Stalkers is rooted, at start and end, in Khul. The PC is at a loss as to what's going on when they go to the other worlds, including the futuristic ones. They're diversions from the regular reality. It's like calling A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court as being part of the Matter of Britain; Life of Brian as being sci-fi because of the Star Wars parody; indeed, how about the Book of Revelation, which deals with an apocalyptic future before eternal bliss somewhere above the atmosphere? Is that sci-fi?

To some extent we are back to Arthur C Clarke's rule of magic. FF has magic all over the place, which includes things that we can do with science. Think of how many Sorcery! spells are within our scientific knowledge. ZAP, HOT, PEP, NIF for starters; we can ZIP in a different way; we cannot ZEN, but we can FLY. Does the SS PC think of Globus et as as being science? No - they're all part of the warp of magic experience. And that's why the PC thinks Globus is an Archmage rather than an arch-scientist. The closest analogue to the PC in the PC's experience is Mampang - someone in a warped reality, even perhaps with the secret of ZED.

In a reverse scenario, the PC in Talisman of Death is also being sent to an alternative world with an alternative timeline, with experiences that are beyond scientific knowledge (the vivisect, the transformation of old man into dragon and so on). Is that sci-fi? No, because the terms are all consistent with a fantasy scenario.

Ergo I'd put SS as firmly within FF, with the sci-fi element as being exceptional, and not couched in sci-fi terms.

[natwa]

I disagree that it's either Fantasy or Sci-fi, I think it's a bit of both. For the most of the book, your character travels to other worlds. Some of those worlds seem to be Fantasy worlds, while others seem to be Sci-fi worlds and for some of them it's not made quite clear if the world is a Sci-fi one, a Fantasy one or a mixture of both. To me it seems like there are more Fantasy worlds than Sci-fi worlds among the worlds that you can visit but YMMV and the main point, anyway, is that the worlds both include Fantasy and Sci-fi worlds, so that its neither a pure Sci-fi or a pure Fantasy FF. That you combine several genres is nothing new and not so special in the world of literature(or films, comics, rpgs etc). The genre Science Fantasy where you combine elements of Sci-fi and elements of Fantasy is an actual genre and series like Discworld and The Hitchiker's guide to the universe "trilogy" combine respectively the FF and the Sci-fi genre with the comedy genre. And you also have(mostly postmodern) books like If a winternight's traveller where "genre hopping" plays a big part in the plot as such.

On the question about whether it's a Titan book or not, I'd argue that it's clearly not. Most of the action takes place in non-Titan worlds. I'm not sure if Vastariner also was trying to argue for it being a Titan book, due to the beginning and end being "rooted in Titan" and your character being at loss as to what is going in the other worlds. Int that case, I think that the argument doesn't work since, for instance Hitchiker's guide to the galaxy(the book) starts out on Earth, with the main character being perplexed what's going on in his travels in space and having  a hard time adjusting to leaving Earth, yet I think most people would say that it's an interplanar/interstellar adventure rather than an Earth adventure of whatever terms you'd use to describe a Sci-fi that for the most part takes place on Earth. And to use an FF example, I think most people here would consider Magehunter a Titan book, although your character starts out in a different world and, if you make the right decisions, ends up back there and is also a "Fish out of water" kind of character in Titan. And just like with Spectral Stalkers, this is because most of the action takes place on Titan.

[kieran]

I think it's fantasy with a couple of sci-fi elements. The Aleph is a magical object not a machine like the Tardis. Metron the Mapmaker in a way represents the viewpoint of "magic is just science beyond our current understanding" but when he examines magical objects in a scientific manner, they stop functioning properly, suggesting he is actually wrong in his outlook and magic does exist.

I also wouldn't consider Star Wars strictly sci-fi either. The Force is pure fantasy, and while there are sci-fi elements, there's no real effort to make them fit with known physics - George Lucas doesn't seem to know what a parsec is for instance (even if they sorta fixed this mistake in Solo). And as for the Millenium Falcon approaching a planet at lightspeed in Episode VII...

Spectral Stalkers though isn't really non-Titan since a certain percentage of the book is based there and the story is told from the perspective of a Titanian.

[CharlesX]

Dec 30, 2021 14:02:16 GMT kieran said:

I think it's fantasy with a couple of sci-fi elements. The Aleph is a magical object not a machine like the Tardis. Metron the Mapmaker in a way represents the viewpoint of "magic is just science beyond our current understanding" but when he examines magical objects in a scientific manner, they stop functioning properly, suggesting he is actually wrong in his outlook and magic does exist.

I also wouldn't consider Star Wars strictly sci-fi either. The Force is pure fantasy, and while there are sci-fi elements, there's no real effort to make them fit with known physics - George Lucas doesn't seem to know what a parsec is for instance (even if they sorta fixed this mistake in Solo). And as for the Millenium Falcon approaching a planet at lightspeed in Episode VII...

Spectral Stalkers though isn't really non-Titan since a certain percentage of the book is based there and the story is told from the perspective of a Titanian.

Huge Star Wars fan. I personally would tend to think of Star Wars as Sci-fi, in spite of its bad science and fantastic elements, in the same way I tend to think of Lost In Space as Sci-fi, which again is more about storytelling than writing, & if anything aimed at a younger audience.
   Perhaps part of Spectral Stalkers charm and appeal is because it doesn't fit into a single category? Like House Of Hell, which could be horror or fantasy. Some of the writing seems to emphasise the horror aspects, if the creatures themselves are more fantastic or supernatural.

[thealmightymudworm]

Dec 30, 2021 14:02:16 GMT kieran said:

I think it's fantasy with a couple of sci-fi elements. The Aleph is a magical object not a machine like the Tardis. Metron the Mapmaker in a way represents the viewpoint of "magic is just science beyond our current understanding" but when he examines magical objects in a scientific manner, they stop functioning properly, suggesting he is actually wrong in his outlook and magic does exist.

I also wouldn't consider Star Wars strictly sci-fi either. The Force is pure fantasy, and while there are sci-fi elements, there's no real effort to make them fit with known physics - George Lucas doesn't seem to know what a parsec is for instance (even if they sorta fixed this mistake in Solo). And as for the Millenium Falcon approaching a planet at lightspeed in Episode VII...

Spectral Stalkers though isn't really non-Titan since a certain percentage of the book is based there and the story is told from the perspective of a Titanian.

I haven't checked every paragraph, but I don't think the Aleph is ever described as a magical object in SS. (In fact there are strikingly few direct references to 'magic' and 'magical items' in the book.) Wayland says of it that "...the Aleph isn't an Artefact. It's not anything, really, on account of being everything..."
We're given no explanation for its existence or properties, but it's not much more clear that it's not a cosmic natural phenomenon than, say, a wormhole. (Someone pointed out that what it actually is is a metaphor for reading books, perhaps specifically Spectral Stalkers, in that you point your face into it and suddenly you're experiencing being in other worlds.)

Since we're on the subject, whilst it's certainly true that TARDISes are different from the Aleph – they're not so much bigger on the inside as to contain the whole macrocosmos – they aren't accurately described as 'machines'. I know you're working your way through DW series so apologies for the spoilers, but through various episodes (many of which I haven't seen) they are variously described as sentient, living and capable of making independent decisions (including suicide!).

I have seen that there are people don't consider Star Wars to be sci-fi – and I can imagine that anyone whose reading centres around H G Wells, Isaac Asimov, Philip K Dick etc would find its fictional science to be sloppy and disappointing. But if the franchise which invented light sabres, tractor beams and so forth doesn't qualify as sci-fi, can there really be any FF books which do? I've never actually known most of them very well apart from Spectral Stalkers and Starship Traveller but would The Rings of Kether for example count as sci-fi rather than a cop show that happens to feature phasers?

I have to grant you that Metron's destruction of magic sits oddly within sci-fi, even if it's not unheard of for themes valuing curiousity, a sense of wonder or even faith to appear in e.g. Doctor Who. There are other things that fit awkardly within a sci-fi framework, such as collecting round objects as portents (although I'm not sure that worked much better as fantasy, it was a bit of a disappointment all round). Nevertheless it seems to be primarily a sci-fi book to me.

[a moderator]

Jan 1, 2022 18:29:00 GMT thealmightymudworm said:

the franchise which invented light sabres, tractor beams and so forth 

Tractor beams were invented by E.E. 'Doc' Smith over 40 years before the first Star Wars film came out.

[vastariner]

Jan 1, 2022 18:29:00 GMT thealmightymudworm said:

I have to grant you that Metron's destruction of magic sits oddly within sci-fi, even if it's not unheard of for themes valuing curiousity, a sense of wonder or even faith to appear in e.g. Doctor Who.

That's why it isn't sci-fi - when Magic meets Science, Science wins. 

[schlendrian]

Caveat: I don't know Spectral Stalkers. But my opinion is, that SF isn't necessarily about every bit of technology being grounded in our current understanding of physics (that would be "Hard SF"). Key ingredient for SF is a scientific worldview, so the demarcation is imo mostly in how the characters view the phenomena around them, whether they ascribe them to magic or take them to be understandable.

If they have a worldview where everything is at least thought to be explainable, I'd say that work is SF, even if the explanations are ever so flimsical ("We might not know how this person produces fireballs, but he probably uses some combustible substances..."), whereas if some phenomena are just taken to be mystical/otherworldly/non-explainable, that is Fantasy.

That's why for example Dying Earth by Jack Vance is a work of Fantasy, because although it is hinted, that magic users just possess knowledge of long-forgotten technology, to the characters in the story it is inexplainable and, yes, magic.

Jan 1, 2022 18:29:00 GMT thealmightymudworm said:

I haven't checked every paragraph, but I don't think the Aleph is ever described as a magical object in SS. (In fact there are strikingly few direct references to 'magic' and 'magical items' in the book.) Wayland says of it that "...the Aleph isn't an Artefact. It's not anything, really, on account of being everything..."
We're given no explanation for its existence or properties, but it's not much more clear that it's not a cosmic natural phenomenon than, say, a wormhole. (Someone pointed out that what it actually is is a metaphor for reading books, perhaps specifically Spectral Stalkers, in that you point your face into it and suddenly you're experiencing being in other worlds.)

That's my point: It could be a natural phenomenon, but the characters talk of it in rather mystical terms. If they said: "It could be something like a wormhole, but no one knows for sure...", it would at least be taken to be understandable in principle, so I'd say that's fantasy here, even if they don't use the word magic specifically.

Similarily, though I'd say Star Wars on the whole is SF, the Force (at least in the original trilogy) certainly is a strong fantasy element.