Poll: Best Keith Martin gamebook

[petch]

Seems like a while since we had a poll with lots of options to choose from. Keith Martin / Carl Sargent was the most prolific author in the latter half of the Puffin print run (even if you take into account that erroneous writing credit for Legend of Zagor). Plenty to choose from here, but which is the forum's favourite?

Poll closes at 10pm Sunday 30th.

[CharlesX]

This is tough, because while 2 of these books are definitely Martin off-his-game - I don't know whether it was him or the editors who screwed-up Revenge, and Tower Of Destruction, aside from the ordinary feel it has more than most KM, has more rule ambiguities than a Livingstone work - most KM are really good.
   Night Dragon has a lot going for it, but the pacing is off (rather like LOZ it can feel like a store video game), and there is a lot of note-taking, some of it pointless. Vault is very good but too much of a linear dungeon adventure, it is go down a million corridors and open all the doors, and guess the correct order, too (LOZ being even worse). IOTU is good but too long, and has an unfair fight, although the fight is early so its forgivable. Stealer is a great lighter adventure, with fewer K.Martin tropes, and is recommended for newer & younger gamebook players.
   Master Of Chaos has some memorable encounters and a good difficulty curve, it also forms distinct parts which give it more tone. Where Night Dragon has an anticlimactic fight, Master Of Chaos has a fitting climax.

[nathanh]

Keith Martin is my favourite FF author so I am sad I only get to vote for one. Tower of Destruction is the only one I don't think is great (although I haven't played Revenge because it's too expensive---I have a French copy but I don't read French well enough to play). I went with Night Dragon because it is such a great adventure, fun to play, lots to explore, interesting to optimise. But lots of worthy options here. I even quite like Tower of Destruction.

[sylas]

A bit torn on this one. Night Dragon I admire for to its flexible design and creating an epic adventure that is actually deceptively easy. The Time element could've been better implemented however, and the main villain is rather one-dimensional despite its shadow looming across the whole adventure.

Vault of the Vampire has a much better story with fleshed out characters and bristling in atmosphere. Unfortunately, it's also very difficult which, after a few tries, gets frustrating as you begin to realize you can't win without high attributes.

I went for Night Dragon in the end as it gave me more enjoyment and satisfaction. I do like a good story but having fun was more important.

[kieran]

Vault for me. The castle is just really well laid out, it feels like you are exploring an actual home of a villain. I also like the way you end up doubling back on yourself in the end, re-investigating areas you previously passed - pretty unusual for FF. Although it is a book that encourages lots of exploration, it never feels as tedious as his later books and it has some excellent characters to interact with. I used to criticise it for not really being scary but it has a kind of Gothic vibe which I appreciate more these days.

I like Stealer. It's a bit generic but it's well designed (it's essentially a hub book but much better disguised than in his later works) and the Empire of illusions has a bit of imagination to it.

Master of Chaos has a great first half but the second half is a bit dull. Jesper the mongoose and Naas the dark elf are great characters.

Tower is a bit too unforgiving and long but I do like the melancholy atmosphere to the ice palace.

Island goes even harder into that melancholy vibe and has an interesting mystery to sink your teeth into. It does outstay its welcome slightly sadly.

Night Dragon and Legend of Zagor are just too tedious for me. Way too much to keep track of.

I feel Revenge is a bit of a return to form with more atmosphere and less note taking, though as with most of his books it's too long and, unusually for Keith Martin, it has quite a few unfair instant deaths.

[petch]

I find Martin's books the hardest to rank out of all of the authors. Night Dragon and Vault stand out as the best to me, and I think I like Revenge the least as, although I like Martin's approach to gamebook design, the use of similar mechanics and gameplay to his other books began to feel a bit overfamiliar by then. The others all have their charms, and are about as good as each other for me.

[terrysalt]

I was between Master of Chaos and Vault of the Vampire. I really like the first half of MoC with the notoriety score but Vault is more consistently good. In the end, I had to go with my buddy Jesper the mongoose though.

[The Count]

Vault of the Vampire is the stand out - very cleverly planned, incredibly atmospheric, brilliantly written and just the right level of difficulty

[Wilf]

Not a fan of Keith Martin's FFs at all. Don't like his prose style; don't like the way he structures his books. The fact that his later titles become increasingly broken doesn't help. Think Island and Night Dragon border on passable; really don't like the others and don't get the love for Vault in the slightest.

[CharlesX]

Jan 28, 2022 22:39:31 GMT Wilf said:

Not a fan of Keith Martin's FFs at all. Don't like his prose style; don't like the way he structures his books. The fact that his later titles become increasingly broken doesn't help. Think Island and Night Dragon border on passable; really don't like the others and don't get the love for Vault in the slightest.

Stealer Of Souls is probably the least Martin-like of his works, and for me is comparable to a good Livingstone adventure such as TWOFM or IOTLK (yes, the Speed spell is a bit of a bug). But then, for me the issues with Martin are more about length, difficulty, and note-taking, which vary and can be addressed, it sounds like your issues with Martin are more fundamental. Aside from the need to go to most places, and sometimes to do so in a specific order, is there something about Martin you really dislike? In a very hypothetical scenario in which Martin wrote some more FF, what FF-related advice would you offer him to write a book which would satisfy you, or do you pretty much hate him?

[nathanh]

I like to take my time over a gamebook, so being able to stretch something like Night Dragon or Legend of Zagor over a week is a positive for me

[vastariner]

Tower of Destruction. Unusual setting, evocative descriptions, and unlike most I don't think the puzzles are unfairly challenging (although they do suggest a 24 hour clock in Allansia).

[stevendoig]

Master of chaos.

The only hub style book that doesnae annoy me.

It's reasonably easy as well.

[CharlesX]

I wonder who voted for Legend Of Zagor? It's kinda fun if you're in the mood for a long FF, and even Sallazar isn't half as hard as Crypt.
  We had a noisy debate about Legend versus Crypt in the FF gamebook ranking thread . Legend isn't a masterpiece and arguably isn't even good, but I'm glad someone else gets some enjoyment out of it.

[natwa]

My vote went to Stealer of Souls. I stated my reason for why I like it so much in the "Most underrated FF gamebooks" thread, in short for many interesting and varied encounters, how it covers and brings to life so many different environments and atmospheres in the space of a book and, not least the final the final part where you both get to learn and use magic and where you experience an interesting and surreal kind of environment. That it's quite easy and doesn't have the large number of special combats, i.e combats where you character has to fight with a handicap, most of his other FF gamebooks seem to have(as you can maybe tell, I'm no a fan of those), doesn't hurt either.

When it comes to the other Keith Martin FF gamebooks I've played, Tower of Destruction, is probably the one I like the least. The first half is a long "try not to get your Stamina reduced to 0" slog. The second half is a bit better, but I didn't find the Ice Palace to be that atmospheric and the musical puzzle seems far too hard. Isle of Undead gets points for a really interesting story and plot that really drew me in and made me want to find out what had happened on the isle in question. On the other hand it loses points for the laundry list of items that you need in order to win, a puzzle that is truly broken and a combat near the beginning that it's far too easy to lose. So in the end it ends up at about average or a little bit about average for me.

Vault of the vampire has several good and interesting encounters and some good(as in well-written) and interesting characters. However, I prefer gamebooks that don't focus so much on one "theme" or a particular kind of opponents and/or encounters, and most of the encounters and opponents seem to be of the vampires and their servants or other types of undead-kind, which means that they are less varied than what I prefer. There are also a couple of encounters/combats that are annoyingly hard at the middle(if I remember correctly) of the story/book and which played a big part in me having to replay the book many times in order to win and get to the end. And these days that's something that drastically reduces my enjoyment of a gamebook. So, all things taken into consideration, I'd consider it to be about average. Master of Chaos is probably the one I like the second best. It's got a reasonable difficulty level, many fun and interesting encounters and I always enjoy it when a FF gamebook gives my character extra abilities.

I haven't played any of the other ones, but it's interesting to see that Night Dragon seem to be about as popular or at least almost as popular as Vault of the vampire, which I, based on the final standings of the big Fighting Fantazine poll though would be sure to be a clear winner of the Keith Martin poll.

[terrysalt]

Night Dragon is great except for the excessive bookkeeping. Especially as the stats that require the most bookkeeping have very little effect on the game.

[tyrion]

Jan 29, 2022 20:14:25 GMT CharlesX said:

I wonder who voted for Legend Of Zagor? It's kinda fun if you're in the mood for a long FF, and even Sallazar isn't half as hard as Crypt.
  We had a noisy debate about Legend versus Crypt in the FF gamebook ranking thread . Legend isn't a masterpiece and arguably isn't even good, but I'm glad someone else gets some enjoyment out of it.

That was me. I like the choice of characters, even if they are unbalanced. I like dungeons, and hubs.

Strangely enough, I enjoy the excessive book keeping in this one, even going so far as to make little cards for each of the magic items and clues that I can refer to easily. It's like an rpg.

I like picking the book up, playing a section, then putting it back down again.

Obviously, I understand not everyone (or, judging from this poll, anyone) shares my point of view! 

This was a difficult decision though, I like all of Keith Martin's books.

[nathanh]

Jan 29, 2022 20:14:25 GMT CharlesX said:

I wonder who voted for Legend Of Zagor? It's kinda fun if you're in the mood for a long FF, and even Sallazar isn't half as hard as Crypt.
  We had a noisy debate about Legend versus Crypt in the FF gamebook ranking thread . Legend isn't a masterpiece and arguably isn't even good, but I'm glad someone else gets some enjoyment out of it.

Legend of Zagor would probably be my #2 choice. As I said, I am happy to take as long as it takes to play a gamebook, and Legend rewards a long slow playthrough. It is also fun just to read all the different encounters.

[terrysalt]

I think a lot depends on what you're trying to do. As a one-off, the bookkeeping is fine, actually fun in some ways. When you're doing something like my progressive playthroughs of the entire series, where you play the same book over and over and over until you win it (and LoZ has to be done four times!), it gets very tiresome very quickly. So that being my most recent experience with the books is probably colouring my opinion.

[petch]

Jan 29, 2022 21:37:55 GMT natwa said:

My vote went to Stealer of Souls. I stated my reason for why I like it so much in the "Most underrated FF gamebooks" thread, in short for many interesting and varied encounters, how it covers and brings to life so many different environments and atmospheres in the space of a book and, not least the final the final part where you both get to learn and use magic and where you experience an interesting and surreal kind of environment. 

I like the ending chapter too. What until that point had been a fairly generic (but well designed and fun) dungeon crawl suddenly became something more memorable and as you say, surreal. I'm sure someone else on the forum has picked up on this in the past, but I think that whole Empire of Illusions section is the most overt evidence of Sargent's psychology background coming to the fore in his books, with each of the corridors appearing to represent a different form of phobia.

[petch]

Yet another close one! Master of Chaos clocked up a respectable four votes, but there were really just two books in the running for the victory here. Night Dragon was I believe four votes ahead at one stage but, like its titular antagonist, Vault of the Vampire rose from the grave to overhaul the lead and goes through to the final.