Poll: Best 'One Book Wonder' gamebook

[petch]

Here we go then: the last poll before the grand final, and this one is to establish the forum's favourite book from those five authors who contributed only one gamebook to the series each. Siege of Sardath's top five finish in the rankings would suggest it is the heavy favourite here, however can The Gates of Death give it a run for its money?

Spoiler: 

SPOILER: Click to show

No. No, it can't.

Poll closes at 10pm Tuesday 8th.

[terrysalt]

It's really only between Rogue and Siege for me. Both are really good books but I ended up following the crowd and going with Siege of Sardath.

[sylas]

I'd say that Gates of Death is without a doubt the worst addition to the FF series or indeed any series of gamebooks. And I've read quite a few stinkers.

[terrysalt]

Gates of Death was annoying at the end with the whole having to die and being told you can't take anything with you but then needing the shoes and death stone from your previous body. That problem aside it wasn't as bad as its reputation. It was just regular bad instead of the crime against humanity it gets painted as.

[a moderator]

I haven't yet attempted to play Gates, but it'll need to be spectacularly awful to rank below a couple of (non-FF) gamebooks I've encountered in the past.

[vastariner]

Feb 6, 2022 0:28:58 GMT terrysalt said:

It's really only between Rogue and Siege for me. Both are really good books but I ended up following the crowd and going with Siege of Sardath.

Me too, Rogue has a lot of charm and fun for being against the grain, but Sardath, although narrow, opens an entire new world.

I've said before, and doubtless will say again, that BW was a major missed opportunity.  Given the status the siege of Vymorna had in Titan, this ought to have been a multi-book epic.  How come a 10 year siege was effectively over within 400 references?  There were all sorts of things that could be done before even leaving the city, for instance, trying to find out why magical scrying was not resulting in help being sent from elsewhere, or why teleportation spells were being blocked.  That sort of thing.

[nathanh]

I've only played Rogue and Warrior and Rogue is way better. So Rogue it is. It's a good one. Only significant negative is that there's no reason to hide one of the clues behind a "you must make this choice first on paragraph one" option, and the clue isn't even narratively necessary, and it isn't acquired through roguery.

[CharlesX]

Crystal Of Storms is a worthy book, and putting it in a poll with Gates Of Death is downright insulting (get Petch has no choice about it). I voted Midnight Rogue, because although Seige Of Sardath is definitely better written, I love the atmosphere in Midnight Rogue, I love playing a villain.

[petch]

This has only just occurred to me after reading through some of the comments above, but does the title of Battleblade Warrior have any relation to the book itself? I mean, other than the fact that you're a warrior, who uses a blade, and there are some battles in it - which could apply to pretty much any book in the series. Surely Gascoigne could have called it, I dunno, 'Siege of Vymorna' or 'The Eyes of Telak', or anything that has an actual connection to the story rather than inventing an unnecessary and basically nonsensical compound word instead.

Perhaps he was aware that he'd just written something so generic that in some kind of act of self-parody he decided to give it as generic-sounding a fantasy title as he could think of.

[Wilf]

This really isn't a contest, is it? My all-time favourite FF versus an unspectacular pot-boiler (Warrior) and three might-be-good-if-they-weren't-so-very-horribly-broken titles.

I can only assume the votes not going Sardath's way are from people who haven't read it.

*reads previous comments*

Yep.

[CharlesX]

Feb 6, 2022 13:32:23 GMT Wilf said:

This really isn't a contest, is it? My all-time favourite FF versus an unspectacular pot-boiler (Warrior) and three might-be-good-if-they-weren't-so-very-horribly-broken titles.

I can only assume the votes not going Sardath's way are from people who haven't read it.

*reads previous comments*

Yep.

I owned and read SOS and I think it's phenomenal. It's also flawed, it's as linear as other FF, very dark, you have no way of knowing the first time when to wear the Brain Slayer Amulet.. Midnight Rogue appealed more to me as a kid (yeah, I bought it earlier), and has a stronger ending with actual, challenging fights.
   The way you can seemingly explore the world quite a lot, but actually there's a tight true path, bugged me (more as a kid), along with the ISTU puzzle. Like I say, there's no question Seige Of Sardath is better written, so maybe I'm the sort of person who prefers King to Shakespeare.
   Read Siege Of Sardath, completed it without a guide many years ago.

[The Count]

Easily Siege of Sardath by a very long way.

Midnight Rogue is fun, but nowhere near the same level.

Crystal is good for what it is, but has the potential to be so much better.

BW is dull

Gates is an abomination.

[CharlesX]

Feb 6, 2022 1:21:45 GMT terrysalt said:

Gates of Death was annoying at the end with the whole having to die and being told you can't take anything with you but then needing the shoes and death stone from your previous body. That problem aside it wasn't as bad as its reputation. It was just regular bad instead of the crime against humanity it gets painted as.

So,  clearly you and Sylas have a difference of opinion on Gates Of Death. In which ways is it  "just regular bad", because I think it deserves to be below stuff like Sky Lord and Eye, and I can't see a single way in which someone could enjoy Gates? As a tribute to FF it's obviously been surpassed by Crystal Of Storms, and I think it deserves its place in the bottom 2 FF..
   Or do you think Blood Of The Zombies isn't as bad as they say too? 

[sylas]

Feb 6, 2022 16:28:51 GMT CharlesX said:

Feb 6, 2022 1:21:45 GMT terrysalt said:

Gates of Death was annoying at the end with the whole having to die and being told you can't take anything with you but then needing the shoes and death stone from your previous body. That problem aside it wasn't as bad as its reputation. It was just regular bad instead of the crime against humanity it gets painted as.

So,  clearly you and Sylas have a difference of opinion on Gates Of Death. In which ways is it  "just regular bad", because I think it deserves to be below stuff like Sky Lord and Eye, and I can't see a single way in which someone could enjoy Gates? As a tribute to FF it's obviously been surpassed by Crystal Of Storms, and I think it deserves its place in the bottom 2 FF..
   Or do you think Blood Of The Zombies isn't as bad as they say too? 

I'm in the minority here but I don't think Blood of the Zombies is that terrible.
Now, I can acknowledge that the gameplay sucks big time. Mechanically, it's broken to unplayable and the whole Zombie tallying up idea is awful... But the story itself is actually very well written (aside from the cringey Intro and Outro). The pacing is great and quite atmospheric in places, there's a good sense of survival, exploration and info hunting, it does feel like running a gauntlet during your escape, you get a nice companion who isn't annoying and doesn't die!, and you get to encounter the antagonist at least once before the final confrontation. It's also a very original entry to the series and differs greatly from what Livingstone has written before. The art is excellent too.
Okay, so that's not a shining summary of what I think of the book but I do believe if it was presented in a more FF format (i.e. with the regular Skill and Luck included from the outset) that there's a good adventure to be had. And it doesn't infuriate me in the way that Gates of Death does.

[sleepyscholar]

Feb 6, 2022 11:02:24 GMT petch said:

This has only just occurred to me after reading through some of the comments above, but does the title of Battleblade Warrior have any relation to the book itself? I mean, other than the fact that you're a warrior, who uses a blade, and there are some battles in it - which could apply to pretty much any book in the series. Surely Gascoigne could have called it, I dunno, 'Siege of Vymorna' or 'The Eyes of Telak', or anything that has an actual connection to the story rather than inventing an unnecessary and basically nonsensical compound word instead.

Perhaps he was aware that he'd just written something so generic that in some kind of act of self-parody he decided to give it as generic-sounding a fantasy title as he could think of.

Very likely. Marc has highly active senses of irony and humour. On another list*, this very morning, he described me as 'reliable'.



*Related to music, not gamebooks, I should add.

[terrysalt]

Feb 6, 2022 16:28:51 GMT CharlesX said:

Feb 6, 2022 1:21:45 GMT terrysalt said:

Gates of Death was annoying at the end with the whole having to die and being told you can't take anything with you but then needing the shoes and death stone from your previous body. That problem aside it wasn't as bad as its reputation. It was just regular bad instead of the crime against humanity it gets painted as.

So,  clearly you and Sylas have a difference of opinion on Gates Of Death. In which ways is it  "just regular bad", because I think it deserves to be below stuff like Sky Lord and Eye, and I can't see a single way in which someone could enjoy Gates? As a tribute to FF it's obviously been surpassed by Crystal Of Storms, and I think it deserves its place in the bottom 2 FF..
   Or do you think Blood Of The Zombies isn't as bad as they say too? 

Apart from the one issue I mentioned, I had no problem with Gates. It was pretty boring but I think people overstate it's terribleness because it's popular to do so. If you compensate for the one issue, the gameplay is pretty balanced and you really can win no matter what your stats are. Maybe it's just that it had been hyped up as the epitome of irredeemable garbage so when I read it, it didn't meet those expectations. But I'm fine with being against the crowd on this one.

[kieran]

Feb 6, 2022 17:27:44 GMT sylas said:

I do believe if it was presented in a more FF format (i.e. with the regular Skill and Luck included from the outset) that there's a good adventure to be had.

I find the streamlined battle system one of its good points. Can you imagine having to fight dozens of Skill 7 Stamina 5 zombies? Mowing down 8 zombies at once with a shotgun blast is oddly satisfying.

I think if it was a bit less linear and you started with 100+ Stamina, it would actually be a decent book for the reasons you mention.

[kieran]

Like nearly everyone else, I voted for Siege of Sardath. It's intricately designed, teaming with red herrings and extremely well-written with some of the best characters in an FF book. It could maybe have done without having quite so many instant deaths (the author admitted in Facebook he wouldn't have put so many in if he had expected people to play the book by the rules), I dislike one puzzle, the time track is pointless and obtaining one essential item is way too counter-intuitive. But still a very good gamebook and it's a pity that it was Phillips' only FF. Although he is not one of my favourite FF artists, Pete Knifton is really good at drawing elves.

Midnight Rogue would have been better if it was completely burglary devoted - the dungeon is linear and dull. But even the burglary section has its annoyances - you shouldn't need all 3 clues, particularly The Noose one. And the book should warn you to do the Noose first.

Battleblade Warrior has a good start and I like the mini dungeon at the end. I also like the atypical villain and the orc funeral is pretty funny. But a lot of the middle section is a bit dull and tries to railroad you too much. Also, as a child I used to find it really depressing that no matter what you do, Katya always dies 

Gates of Death does some interesting things with the mechanics, but also some quite annoying things. The writing is pretty inconsistent in terms of quality and it just goes on and on and on. Nice villain.

Crystal of Storms also forces you to see 95% of the book in a single playthrough which I really dislike but it's much better written and has an excellent final boss battle. It's a pity most of the islands seem oddly empty.

[nathanh]

I think the linearity of the Rogue dungeon is overstated as a weakness. If you think of it more as a test of how efficiently you've managed your limited inventory slots and special skill acquisition, it should be more palatable.

[The Count]

Feb 7, 2022 10:31:44 GMT kieran said:

 And the book should warn you to do the Noose first.

I strongly disagree with this. The book should not have the reset, and the Noose should have the most important clue. The very first time I played MR, it was blatantly obvious that I should visit the Noose asap. If you cannot work out that a thief should visit the place where you will meet other thieves, you should fail badly.

[stevendoig]

I gave a sympathy vote to Battle blade warrior.

Always one of my favourites.

[bloodbeasthandler]

Feb 8, 2022 0:36:31 GMT The Count said:

If you cannot work out that a thief should visit the place where you will meet other thieves, you should fail badly.

This takes me back to my student days.
YOU are tasked with writing an essay on the phenomenon of interactive fiction of the 1980's to be handed in at 9am tomorrow without fail. Do you...

Go to the library to take out the necessary books? turn to 123
Seek out your tutor for some last minute advice? turn to 234
Go down the Students' Union where you will meet other students? Turn to 345

But back to Midnight Rogue, there's no real logical reason why you cannot go back to the Noose. Madame Starr [the one with the apparently crucial information which doesn't even seem that crucial to me] was at home when you go and find her anyway. It's not as if you have to catch her within her normal business hours. 

[bloodbeasthandler]

Feb 6, 2022 9:12:15 GMT vastariner said:

I've said before, and doubtless will say again, that BW was a major missed opportunity.  Given the status the siege of Vymorna had in Titan, this ought to have been a multi-book epic.  How come a 10 year siege was effectively over within 400 references?  There were all sorts of things that could be done before even leaving the city, for instance, trying to find out why magical scrying was not resulting in help being sent from elsewhere, or why teleportation spells were being blocked.  That sort of thing.

I'd not thought about this before, but you are completely right. The initial Lizardman Empire attacks in the countryside, the battles, evacuating people [might have a bit of a Flight from the Dark feel to it] and retreating. The siege itself, as you say... think of all the things that could have been included... spies within the walls, Vymorna sending out troops for supplies, messengers and reliving armies not getting though, the fighting on the ramparts. Loads of stuff.  

The only downside to it, would be that there would have been an inevitability to things - ie we know the result will always be a long siege. The Lizardmen couldn't be defeated within those ten years because it would clash with what was written in Titan. 

[The Count]

Feb 8, 2022 18:05:14 GMT bloodbeasthandler said:

Feb 8, 2022 0:36:31 GMT The Count said:

If you cannot work out that a thief should visit the place where you will meet other thieves, you should fail badly.

This takes me back to my student days.
YOU are tasked with writing an essay on the phenomenon of interactive fiction of the 1980's to be handed in at 9am tomorrow without fail. Do you...

Go to the library to take out the necessary books? turn to 123
Seek out your tutor for some last minute advice? turn to 234
Go down the Students' Union where you will meet other students? Turn to 345

But back to Midnight Rogue, there's no real logical reason why you cannot go back to the Noose. Madame Starr [the one with the apparently crucial information which doesn't even seem that crucial to me] was at home when you go and find her anyway. It's not as if you have to catch her within her normal business hours. 

If you are a student, clearly the correct response is 345.

There is a structure issue with MR which means you can revisit the other two areas repeatedly and I think removing the option to visit areas more than once then turning those 3 "you naughty cheat!" paragraphs into instant deaths based on whether you went to the Noose second, third or not at all would fix this.

[petch]

And so the individual author polls come to a close with the most one-sided contest of the lot. As other posters have already pointed out, this was a no contest from the off. Nothing came close to Siege, and Midnight Rogue is the only other book here to come away with anything approaching a respectable amount of votes.

[bloodbeasthandler]

Feb 8, 2022 6:27:27 GMT stevendoig said:

I gave a sympathy vote to Battle blade warrior.

Always one of my favourites.

I meant to mention this a while ago, but for me Marc Gascoigne's contribution to FF is underestimated even on these boards. 
Yes he only did one gamebook, but in terms of expanding the world and providing source books he did a lot. 
He was the editor [author rather] of Titan and Out of the Pit and [along with Pete Tamlyn] did all three of the AFF books - Dungeoneer, Blacksand and Allansia.

Titan I have read and reread many times and the Blacksand book is really indispensable for anyone wanting to write a gamebook set in that city.  

[CharlesX]

Feb 16, 2022 19:40:38 GMT bloodbeasthandler said:

Feb 8, 2022 6:27:27 GMT stevendoig said:

I gave a sympathy vote to Battle blade warrior.

Always one of my favourites.

I meant to mention this a while ago, but for me Marc Gascoigne's contribution to FF is underestimated even on these boards. 
Yes he only did one gamebook, but in terms of expanding the world and providing source books he did a lot. 
He was the editor [author rather] of Titan and Out of the Pit and [along with Pete Tamlyn] did all three of the AFF books - Dungeoneer, Blacksand and Allansia.

Titan I have read and reread many times and the Blacksand book is really indispensable for anyone wanting to write a gamebook set in that city.  

Agreed. Titan is one of my favourite FFs, non-gamebook or otherwise, both for the rich description and the wealth of information for any potential RPG or solo gamebook.
   As far as AFF goes (and yeah, they are well-written), there's always been the balance\specialisation problem. I myself think it should be progressively harder to gain higher levels, like XP in a computer game. I sometimes prefer the more simplistic gameplay of the original Fighting Fantasy The Role-playing Game, or Fighting Fantasy Legends, in which you're awarded a stat bonus (by the system, that is) on completion of a big quest. There's a definite charm about it.

[vastariner]

Gascoigne's contribution (he also edited Warlock) is one reason why BW was so disappointing. Instead of being a gamebook of itself it became an excuse to shoehorn in as much of Titan! as possible. I expected a lot more world-building and game-play.

[bloodbeasthandler]

I'm going to say it was not shoehorning at all.
To me, that implies jamming and cramming something into a space it doesn't really fit.

From YOU are the Hero... (my underlinings)

Gascoigne took a number of plot hooks that he had created for Titan - the city state of Vymorna, a Lizardman Empire, a merchant and his pet sabre-toothed tigers - and ran with them, developing them into an exciting narrative set against the backdrop of a city under siege, with forays into jungle swamplands as well as the ruins of a forgotten city.

He had already done the world-building. All those things were his ideas and he decided to set his gamebook within them. At the time, rather than being disappointed that I was seeing something taken from Titan and put into the latest gamebook, I was pleased. 

[vastariner]

It WAS shoehorning though. In that there was no plot need to meet Lecarte, and surely drinking guursh at the Orc funeral was self-indulgence gone mad. And, as I've said, the Siege of Vymorna was built up in Titan to be something huge and epic, and instead it turned out the Vymorns were just being lazy. One hero doing something easier than Fangs of Fury.