Thoughts on the Zagor books

[CharlesX]

I would say there were three Fighting Fantasy books where Zagor is The big bad, The Warlock Of Firetop Mountain, Return To Firetop Mountain, and Legend Of Zagor, plus the Zagor Chronicles (as Joss Whedon might say, they suck). They seem to suffer from diminishing returns (a common problem in sequels). The Warlock Of Firetop Mountain is an amazing adventure, which is why it has deservedly been adapted onto video games, Advanced Fighting Fantasy, and even a board game. Return To Firetop Mountain is heavily linear, and suffers from all the sorts of things Ian normally does wrong, but is enjoyable enough if you don't deeply dislike Ian Livingstone. Legend Of Zagor seems to have divided, even polarized, opinion, but it's very long and feels too much like a game, and that's heavily obvious even as a fan of it and the author. I think if people were asked to name their favourite Zagor gamebooks in order, I'd challenge anyone to say they weren't TWOFM, RTFM, and LOZ, in that order (with The Zagor Chronicles below all three).
   Zagor for me is an incredibly iconic figure, and I think the Zagor gamebooks are some of the most amazing in the series!
   Posted in the wrong category, could this be moved to Fighting Fantasy?

[a moderator]

As you investigate the edit options, you hear a click. Your screen turns blurry, and goes blank. When it comes on again, the thread is in a different location.

[kieran]

Jun 3, 2022 19:31:50 GMT CharlesX said:

I think if people were asked to name their favourite Zagor gamebooks in order, I'd challenge anyone to say they weren't TWOFM, RTFM, and LOZ, in that order

Hmm, I would go with 1.RTFM, 2.TWOFM 3.LOZ. I feel RTFM is a bit more coherent and atmospheric and doesn't suffer from having so many sections devoted to a bland maze. And as you said, LOZ is quite polarising so many FF fans would rank it higher than either or both of the other two.

Despite these three books being a trilogy connected by a single villain, the connection between them feels quite weak to me. "Zagor" may as well be a completely different character in each of the three books - if the villain of RTFM had been a new wizard who had taken over the dungeon and LOZ's villain had just been the Bone Demon without the Zagor merge, it would have made minimal difference. Even Firetop Mountain feels like a different dungeon between TWOFM and RTFM with only a few areas appearing in both.

[terrysalt]

I'm the oddball then because I would put Legend in the middle. It gets points for at least trying something different. Return is a strictly paint-by-numbers Livingstone effort. I put Warlock at the top not because I think it's especially good but because its competition is so lacking.

[bloodbeasthandler]

Jun 3, 2022 23:14:57 GMT kieran said:

Despite these three books being a trilogy connected by a single villain, the connection between them feels quite weak to me. "Zagor" may as well be a completely different character in each of the three books

And the character of Zagor in the novel The Trolltooth Wars feels different again.

[nathanh]

Legend of Zagor is one of my favourite gamebooks. It helps that I am happy to play a gamebook over the course of several days, because I think that helps with LoZ. I also like gamebooks where I spend as much time looking at the map optimising the route as I do playing it, and Legend is one of the best for this. It could be better balanced and a little better at occasionally limiting you to only exploring some % of each hub, but you can't have everything.

Warlock is to me just a reasonable gamebook. It wasn't remotely the first I played so it doesn't have any special place for me. I think the most impressive thing about it is that it's the first one but is generally well-rounded. I'd have expected some sort of big flaw in the first attempt but there isn't anything that springs to mind.

Return bores me to play it, but is diverting enough to read. I think there is too much time wasted before going into the dungeon though.

I give a lot of grief to the Zagor Chronicles but I suspect much of that is residual annoyance at one of the events at the end of the last book; Young Nathan liked the first three books. Even Adult Nathan sees some value in certain elements:
- The tone is suitably miserable. Amarillia really is getting punched in the face again and again in this series.
- I like the twist at the end of the third book
- Young Nathan started the series expecting Braxus to be the designated hero and Jallarial the designated girlfriend. I don't think I'd read a series where a woman was the party leader and most effective team member, so the series probably had a good effect on me.

[bloodbeasthandler]

Does anyone know why Amarillia was chosen as a setting in the first place? 

Trolltooth Wars, Demonstealer and Shadowmaster were all Allansia-based. 
Then these books came along in a world that up til then had had only a single gamebook set in it. Why?

[nathanh]

I don't have an answer to your question, but Amarillia was also the setting for Casket of Souls which came a lot earlier. So it might have been a case of "we've got this old story about the Bone Demon and the Casket of Souls lying around, let's just use that"

[vastariner]

There is a mention in them about the similarity of names of Lord Azzur and the city of Azzūr. I assume it was chosen simply to get the interplanetary elements of the plot in there and as a throwback to Casket of Souls.

[IoannesKantakouzenos]

Actually, I think I'd rate them TWoFM, LoZ, RtFM. Legend is different enough to actually being fun (especially playing as Braxus), even though some things don't make sense in it. Warlock is, well, Warlock. So what's my beef with RtFM? I have alrerady stated it here, but I'll repeat it again for argument sake. Since I loved Warlock, I half-expected Return to use more of the original tunnels, maybe return to the crypt, find the Ghouls once again... but very little is used, the first three doors are even bolted shut. And of course, from the river onwards, everything is different.

NB: I never read the Zagor Chronicles.

[King Gillibran]

Jun 3, 2022 19:31:50 GMT CharlesX said:

I think if people were asked to name their favourite Zagor gamebooks in order, I'd challenge anyone to say they weren't TWOFM, RTFM, and LOZ, in that order (with The Zagor Chronicles below all three).

Hmm My favourite is RTFM then LOZ then TWOFM. I love Return. Legend is Exciting and TWOFM you walk into an old mans home who likes cards and vaporize him with an eye that you can't not find if you are going to win. No challange.

[Gabe Fandango]

Jun 4, 2022 7:54:02 GMT bloodbeasthandler said:

Jun 3, 2022 23:14:57 GMT kieran said:

Despite these three books being a trilogy connected by a single villain, the connection between them feels quite weak to me. "Zagor" may as well be a completely different character in each of the three books

And the character of Zagor in the novel The Trolltooth Wars feels different again.

I've always felt the Trolltooth Wars version to be the more "authentic" version of the original Zagor (probably because they were both written by Jackson). The one in Return to Firetop mountain always felt like a different guy. The original Zagor was never said to be causing trouble for the common folk outside. He was just a recluse who holed up in his labyrinth with his magic and treasure. He probably dealt harshly with foolhardy adventurers who went into his home with the intention of trying to steal his riches, and rightfully so, but he never felt like the villain. Livingstone just turned him into another generic world-conquering villain. Do we even know of any innocent victims to have suffered under Zagor's tyranny in the first book? The villagers described the dangers in the mountain, but not they were suffering for living close to it or being troubled by any of his servants. That old man we may free form his dungeon admitted that he was just another greedy adventurer who came for the treasure, so he was justifiably imprisoned like a captured thief would be (and Zagor didn't even kill him for it, or use him for sorcerous experiments). Even the 4 dwarves gambling in the maze never said anything bad about Zagor. 

[kieran]

Nov 13, 2022 14:30:32 GMT Gabe Fandango said:

Do we even know of any innocent victims to have suffered under Zagor's tyranny in the first book?

Section 165 tells us that the river flooded and supplies were cut off for the inhabitants of the north bank who then starved to death. Zagor put a curse on the area to turn them all into his undead guards against the outside world.

Also presumably he didn't acquire all that treasure honestly.

Even in The Trolltooth Wars, he is still a pupil of an evil wizard even if he was against betraying that wizard.

So I think it's fair to say he was at least somewhat bad in WOFM and just became more so when he came back. In RTFM he needs to build a new body so that explains why he harasses the locals more than previously.

[Gabe Fandango]

Nov 13, 2022 16:53:52 GMT kieran said:

Also presumably he didn't acquire all that treasure honestly.

Fair point about the necromancy (although at least he didn't seem to have caused the flood or the deaths themselves), but nobody knows how he got the treasure. He could have just slain a local dragon that previously inhabited the place and took over his hoard, which makes him about as evil as any standard fantasy adventurer. And he likely added on to that hoard over the years by looting all the guys who came to rob him.

I certainly don't think he was a nice guy to begin with, but the rest of Allansia could probably have co-existed well enough with him so long as they stay out of his yard. You could say that the Hero of WoFTM may have created a real monster for his "heroic" deed. Being robbed and killed can have some really negative impact on a guy's disposition.

[kieran]

Nov 14, 2022 3:12:33 GMT Gabe Fandango said:

Fair point about the necromancy (although at least he didn't seem to have caused the flood or the deaths themselves)

No although you'd think a powerful mage would have had some means to prevent their deaths. He seems to have managed to have kept himself from starving at any rate.

[paperexplorer]

I always found RTFM jarring as it wasn't the zagor from WOFM or Trolltooth Wars. By the time LOZ came about I just accepted he was now a generic bad guy.

I don't have any great affinity for zagor. If you asked me to rank my favourite FF villains, he wouldn't be part of that list, but I get that he is recurring just by being the first, and that is his real significance.

[revenant]

Remember he wasn't even named Zagor in the original book. There was just a section of dungeon named The Maze Of Zagor from which the name was retconned.
I like the original Warlock just as he was in Book 1, before Allansia even existed (if memory serves). Canon is cool and all but FF has a very rickety and patchwork canon and lets not forget how the series developed organically.

[kieran]

Nov 15, 2022 13:50:45 GMT revenant said:

Remember he wasn't even named Zagor in the original book. There was just a section of dungeon named The Maze Of Zagor from which the name was retconned.

He was actually named Zagor from the start, but the reference that confirms this is easy to miss. Section 25:
'The paintings are portraits of men. Your spine shivers as you read the nameplate under the one on the west wall - it is that of Zagor, the Warlock whose treasure you are seeking.'

[revenant]

Nov 15, 2022 14:03:34 GMT kieran said:

Nov 15, 2022 13:50:45 GMT revenant said:

Remember he wasn't even named Zagor in the original book. There was just a section of dungeon named The Maze Of Zagor from which the name was retconned.

He was actually named Zagor from the start, but the reference that confirms this is easy to miss. Section 25:
'The paintings are portraits of men. Your spine shivers as you read the nameplate under the one on the west wall - it is that of Zagor, the Warlock whose treasure you are seeking.'

I stand corrected! Funny, I've had that incorrect factoid in my head for years.