|
Post by time4tea on Sept 17, 2022 11:46:42 GMT
Dunno who told you that the original royalty rate was too generous, but I seriously doubt that it was one of us poor toilers on 6% (actually 3% on a co-written book). Given than J&L were making 4% on books which they did no work whatever on, perhaps you meant too generous to them. But fair's fair, they did start the series. And quite why they feel the need to deprive writers entirely of their copyright, I can't understand (for me it's not the rate of pay that means my books were never republished, it was entirely a matter of my objection to the principle of depriving writers of what is their moral right).
Oh, you're an FF author? Cool! Which books are yours (if you don't mind me asking)?
Re. the Scholastic series: I have been wondering why all the reprints are SJ/IL books, and there seem to be very few other authors doing new ones. I think it should be really important to get other authors on board, to have different ideas coming in. It's hard to imagine the original series would have been as successful if SJ/IL had just gone it alone - many of my favorite FFs are not books written by them.
|
|
|
Post by sleepyscholar on Sept 17, 2022 12:53:11 GMT
Oh, you're an FF author? Cool! Which books are yours (if you don't mind me asking)?
Re. the Scholastic series: I have been wondering why all the reprints are SJ/IL books, and there seem to be very few other authors doing new ones. I think it should be really important to get other authors on board, to have different ideas coming in. It's hard to imagine the original series would have been as successful if SJ/IL had just gone it alone - many of my favorite FFs are not books written by them.
My books are The Riddling Reaver, Slaves of the Abyss, Black Vein Prophecy, The Crimson Tide and Magehunter. As for whether it's 'important' to have other authors on board, I think it boils down to 'important to whom'. As the decisions are made by Steve and Ian, I think it should be evident that getting other authors on board is not important to them.
|
|
|
Post by time4tea on Sept 18, 2022 1:10:02 GMT
My books are The Riddling Reaver, Slaves of the Abyss, Black Vein Prophecy, The Crimson Tide and Magehunter. As for whether it's 'important' to have other authors on board, I think it boils down to 'important to whom'. As the decisions are made by Steve and Ian, I think it should be evident that getting other authors on board is not important to them.
Ok, it's great to meet you! I remember reading Slaves of the Abyss and Black Vein Prophecy when I was a kid. I really enjoyed those books and found them quite challenging. Yes, it's pretty clear that Steve and Ian don't seem very interested in getting other authors involved at the moment, unfortunately. I'll have to hope that will change at some point in the future.
|
|
|
Post by sleepyscholar on Sept 18, 2022 3:25:33 GMT
Ok, it's great to meet you! I remember reading Slaves of the Abyss and Black Vein Prophecy when I was a kid. I really enjoyed those books and found them quite challenging. Yes, it's pretty clear that Steve and Ian don't seem very interested in getting other authors involved at the moment, unfortunately. I'll have to hope that will change at some point in the future.
I can't see a reason why it might. Other writers only got involved initially because the demand was so massive. Now it is rather lower, Steve and Ian can fulfil most of it themselves while asking a couple of celebrity chums to join in as and when...
|
|
|
Post by time4tea on Sept 18, 2022 12:49:45 GMT
I can't see a reason why it might. Other writers only got involved initially because the demand was so massive. Now it is rather lower, Steve and Ian can fulfil most of it themselves while asking a couple of celebrity chums to join in as and when...
It's interesting to look at how things have changed. With the original series, I had the impression that at least Steve seemed to have lost interest in writing FFs himself after a while. The last one he wrote was Creature of Havoc and Ian only wrote about 3 of the last 30. However, now it seems things have flipped around and they seem to want to do most of it themselves. I guess, as you say, the market is different and perhaps they were more occupied with other things back then.
|
|
|
Post by sleepyscholar on Sept 18, 2022 13:34:01 GMT
It's interesting to look at how things have changed. With the original series, I had the impression that at least Steve seemed to have lost interest in writing FFs himself after a while. The last one he wrote was Creature of Havoc and Ian only wrote about 3 of the last 30. However, now it seems things have flipped around and they seem to want to do most of it themselves. I guess, as you say, the market is different and perhaps they were more occupied with other things back then.
Ian, at least, made his real money with Eidos, I think. At the time Fighting Fantasy was at its peak, I think both Ian and Steve had far more lucrative uses of their time than the effort involved in knocking out a decent gamebook. And given that they could make 4% from every gamebook written, with zero effort on their part, it made sense to farm it out to other authors. But lest you think I'm characterising them as no more than venal moneygrubbers, I remember that while writing FF I was also working for Games International, a magazine which initially gave a lot of coverage to the amazing games coming out of Germany (it was probably the first venue in the UK to do so: now everyone knows about Settlers of Cataan etc). Brian Walker, the editor, got friendly with Ian, basically because Ian was really interested in board games. Ian did stuff for the magazine, which provided him with chump change -- he was clearly doing it for the love of the games. After Games International morphed into Strategy Plus, and then got bought up by Americans, Ian even gave Brian a job at Eidos. Now I would guess -- and it is only a guess, of course -- that both Ian and Steve are basically now doing Fighting Fantasy for the craic. For them, as for so many fans*, it's nostalgic. And they may even get some pleasure from the intricacies of gamebook plotting; as those on this forum who have done it can attest, it can be pretty absorbing. One thing that really impressed me at Fighting Fantasy Fest 4 was the effort Steve and Ian put in to the signings, and of course to their presentations. Neither of them was doing that out of commercial necessity. The flip side of that is that there is now absolutely no reason for them to get other writers in except, as I put it earlier, for good craic. Hence a bloke from the Fast Show and Terry Pratchett's daughter (one of whom, however, was probably qualified to write a gamebook, and readers will not need me to point out which). And since Fighting Fantasy is, to Steve and Ian, primarily a sort of good feeling and nostalgia, they don't want to muddy that water by allowing anybody else to have any claim (in the form of copyright) on it. The only reprinted FFs are ones whose authors have ceded copyright to Ian and Steve. *29.2%, according to my recent research.
|
|
|
Post by paperexplorer on Sept 18, 2022 23:34:18 GMT
Hi Paul,
Just curious, but was the signing over of copyright a thing under Puffin or is that new? My question comes from the fact that Keep of the Lich Lord was republished (minus FF rules or setting of Allansia).
Re pay rates, it's an interesting relationship the series had with its authors. Steve and Ian created the rules and the platform which pretty much guaranteed a writer mass market publication, great shelf presence and a wrapping which pretty much guaranteed sales, but on the other hand without thise other writers the series would have petered out before hitting 20 books. FF was the hit it was because not only were they great, but they were able to flood the market with them. Steve and Ian needed those other writers to keep the momentum going.
Personally, and I'm saying this as a writer myself who has only published through independent publishers, I'd take the 6% and be happy to have a book I wrote appear in the series I grew up reading, and I think my kids would love it too.
|
|
|
Post by time4tea on Sept 19, 2022 1:09:41 GMT
Ian, at least, made his real money with Eidos, I think. At the time Fighting Fantasy was at its peak, I think both Ian and Steve had far more lucrative uses of their time than the effort involved in knocking out a decent gamebook. And given that they could make 4% from every gamebook written, with zero effort on their part, it made sense to farm it out to other authors. But lest you think I'm characterising them as no more than venal moneygrubbers, I remember that while writing FF I was also working for Games International, a magazine which initially gave a lot of coverage to the amazing games coming out of Germany (it was probably the first venue in the UK to do so: now everyone knows about Settlers of Cataan etc). Brian Walker, the editor, got friendly with Ian, basically because Ian was really interested in board games. Ian did stuff for the magazine, which provided him with chump change -- he was clearly doing it for the love of the games. After Games International morphed into Strategy Plus, and then got bought up by Americans, Ian even gave Brian a job at Eidos. Now I would guess -- and it is only a guess, of course -- that both Ian and Steve are basically now doing Fighting Fantasy for the craic. For them, as for so many fans*, it's nostalgic. And they may even get some pleasure from the intricacies of gamebook plotting; as those on this forum who have done it can attest, it can be pretty absorbing. One thing that really impressed me at Fighting Fantasy Fest 4 was the effort Steve and Ian put in to the signings, and of course to their presentations. Neither of them was doing that out of commercial necessity. The flip side of that is that there is now absolutely no reason for them to get other writers in except, as I put it earlier, for good craic. Hence a bloke from the Fast Show and Terry Pratchett's daughter (one of whom, however, was probably qualified to write a gamebook, and readers will not need me to point out which). And since Fighting Fantasy is, to Steve and Ian, primarily a sort of good feeling and nostalgia, they don't want to muddy that water by allowing anybody else to have any claim (in the form of copyright) on it. The only reprinted FFs are ones whose authors have ceded copyright to Ian and Steve. *29.2%, according to my recent research.
Thanks for the detailed insight - this is all very interesting. So, it seems the main reason for the lack of reprints from other authors is because Ian/Steve are insisting that they hand over copyright, rather than because of problems with money or Scholastic? The copyright demand does strike me as being rather unreasonable and I can certainly understand many authors not being willing to do that. It's sad to see the Fighting Fantasy series being impacted by these sorts of disagreements, but I guess that's life.
Tbh, hearing this makes me feel even less inclined to buy the Scholastic books, or at least any of the reprints.
|
|
|
Post by sleepyscholar on Sept 19, 2022 6:15:15 GMT
Hi Paul, Just curious, but was the signing over of copyright a thing under Puffin or is that new? My question comes from the fact that Keep of the Lich Lord was republished (minus FF rules or setting of Allansia). Re pay rates, it's an interesting relationship the series had with its authors. Steve and Ian created the rules and the platform which pretty much guaranteed a writer mass market publication, great shelf presence and a wrapping which pretty much guaranteed sales, but on the other hand without thise other writers the series would have petered out before hitting 20 books. FF was the hit it was because not only were they great, but they were able to flood the market with them. Steve and Ian needed those other writers to keep the momentum going. Personally, and I'm saying this as a writer myself who has only published through independent publishers, I'd take the 6% and be happy to have a book I wrote appear in the series I grew up reading, and I think my kids would love it too. Contracts with Penguin included copyright staying with the authors, though you may notice the absurd (and probably unenforceable) 'Concept copyright...' notice. By definition, a concept cannot be copyrighted. Penguin probably drew up the contracts in this traditional way because this was how it was done by most publishers in those days. The whole principle of copyright was that it was a right, which inhered in the author. The modern concept of it being no more than a tradeable commodity was not so widely held in the 80s and 90s. I've never complained about the opportunity I had to write FF, or the rates I was paid for them. I'd probably even do them again at that rate, if I could find the time. I guess the money has never mattered that much to me: the reason I have never made any money off FF in the last 20 years was that I was pissed off that when they cancelled the series, Puffin also handed all foreign rights sales stuff to Ian & Steve without informing or consulting us. First I heard about it was when a letter and cheque arrived from Steve. I never cashed the cheque, as that would have indicated that I tacitly accepted the arrangement. Never got around to challenging it, though, which means that Ian and Steve have kept whatever foreign income my books have accrued over the years. As I know that money did matter that much, to Ian at least (as supported by the story of his angry denial when Dave Morris suggested that I might have made more money than him from his abortive F.I.S.T. wizard's duel game), I guess they probably deserved it more than I did. As I've said, including at FFF4, when I noticed that my comment was accompanied by nods from the other 3 writers on the panel, I think writers should retain copyright.
|
|
|
Post by sleepyscholar on Sept 19, 2022 6:21:26 GMT
Thanks for the detailed insight - this is all very interesting. So, it seems the main reason for the lack of reprints from other authors is because Ian/Steve are insisting that they hand over copyright, rather than because of problems with money or Scholastic? The copyright demand does strike me as being rather unreasonable and I can certainly understand many authors not being willing to do that. It's sad to see the Fighting Fantasy series being impacted by these sorts of disagreements, but I guess that's life.
Tbh, hearing this makes me feel even less inclined to buy the Scholastic books, or at least any of the reprints.
I wouldn't call this a 'disagreement'. It's just how Ian and Steve have decided to do things. And as I suggested, there are probably pretty understandable reasons why they should do so. I'm not sure it really impacts on whether or not you should buy the Scholastic books. Or at least, let's say I don't think it's as important as the quality of the artwork! I'm a bit of a fanatic about not buying Nestlé, or even MacDonalds. But you have to choose your battles with these things, and I'm not sure FF is the place to take a moral stance about stuff. Unless, of course, it's a neat excuse to save yourself a bit of money you weren't 100% sure about spending anyway!
|
|
|
Post by time4tea on Sept 19, 2022 11:00:26 GMT
I'm not sure it really impacts on whether or not you should buy the Scholastic books. Or at least, let's say I don't think it's as important as the quality of the artwork! I'm a bit of a fanatic about not buying Nestlé, or even MacDonalds. But you have to choose your battles with these things, and I'm not sure FF is the place to take a moral stance about stuff. Unless, of course, it's a neat excuse to save yourself a bit of money you weren't 100% sure about spending anyway!
I think ethics and how people are treated are important, and I care about what 'ethical message' is being sent when I make purchases. If Steve/Ian were primarily motivated by nostalgia and sentiment for the original series, then I would think they would try to be more reasonable and make a deal that would allow the whole series to be reprinted.
And that's another big thing that puts me off the Scholastic reprints: they chose back in the 80s/90s to farm out large numbers of books to other authors (many of whom did an excellent job). Those books are part of the FF series, so the way I see it the current Scholastic series is incomplete. And why would I want to invest my money on an incomplete series of books?
But then, as I said earlier, I doubt they are marketing them to oldies like me who remember the originals. I might buy the new ones and possibly Crystal of Storms (to cast a vote for 'more books by other authors'), but I'll steer clear of the reprints.
|
|
|
Post by paperexplorer on Sept 19, 2022 12:23:02 GMT
Thanks for sharing such detailed responses. Copyright should obviously always belong to the writer for anything they've written.
|
|
|
Post by The Editor (Alex B) on Oct 1, 2022 7:38:01 GMT
As far as copyright goes, an interesting difference in the latest two books:
SOTG - the art & map copyright is given to Ian Livingstone SOS - the art copyright is given to Tazio Bettin
Does Bettin have a better agent? Did SJ & IL pick the artists and retaining copyright was a requirement by Bettin before agreeing?
|
|
revenant
Squire
Posts: 21
Favourite Gamebook Series: Zork (just kidding)
|
Post by revenant on Oct 2, 2022 5:57:42 GMT
I'm going to take a lot of convincing to buy the 2 new ones. Unless these forums absolutely explode with praise for them, I'll save my money. They've just burned too much goodwill with me. Steve Jackson hasn't written a gamebook since 1986. How exactly has he burned your goodwill? Did he slam his trolley into yours at the local Tesco or something?
|
|
|
Post by terrysalt on Oct 2, 2022 7:12:32 GMT
I'm going to take a lot of convincing to buy the 2 new ones. Unless these forums absolutely explode with praise for them, I'll save my money. They've just burned too much goodwill with me. Steve Jackson hasn't written a gamebook since 1986. How exactly has he burned your goodwill? Did he slam his trolley into yours at the local Tesco or something? Ah yes, because I was clearly referring to Steve Jackson as an individual and not Scholastic as a publisher. You got me. *rolls eyes*
|
|
revenant
Squire
Posts: 21
Favourite Gamebook Series: Zork (just kidding)
|
Post by revenant on Oct 2, 2022 11:12:57 GMT
Steve Jackson hasn't written a gamebook since 1986. How exactly has he burned your goodwill? Did he slam his trolley into yours at the local Tesco or something? Ah yes, because I was clearly referring to Steve Jackson as an individual and not Scholastic as a publisher. You got me. *rolls eyes* At least you're man enough to admit it!
|
|
|
Post by CharlesX on Nov 14, 2022 19:27:34 GMT
Going all Back-To-The-Future I'm going to respond to your question in the event Scholastic publish more Fighting Fantasy in the time to come, and base my answer on the two new entries as well as the older ones. Yes, the art has developed from being (for want of a better word) rubbish (amateur?) in the early reprints to quite good in the later ones. I wouldn't say it was above criticism, or e'en always as good as Fighting Fantasy in its Puffin and Wizard editions - it is well-drawn, but cartoonish for my taste. The cover is good but nothing special imho. The paper quality and spine remain only poor. I don't know why but Scholastic seem to have gone with more pages with larger print size - I don't know whether this is an attempt to get a bigger kid audience or 'bang for your buck' but either doesn't resonate with me. The editors do absolutely nothing to correct gameplay errors as usual TTBOMK.
|
|
|
Post by paperexplorer on Nov 14, 2022 22:55:24 GMT
I admit I was thinking of getting some just to save my fragile originals from getting further beaten up by my kids, but given they aren't as into them as they initially signalled (I mean, both kids currently mid adventure in secrets of salamonis, one hasn't touched the book in a month and the other pulls it out and reads for 20 minutes maybe once or twice a week, plus my son who is reading also gave up on stormslayer and shadow of the Giants midway despite still being alive in the game) I don't think I'll bother other than new titles just to have read them
|
|
|
Post by sleepyscholar on Nov 17, 2022 2:42:13 GMT
The editors do absolutely nothing to correct gameplay errors as usual TTBOMK.
'Editors'? What an admirably quaint concept!
|
|
|
Post by misomiso on Nov 17, 2022 7:18:39 GMT
The editors do absolutely nothing to correct gameplay errors as usual TTBOMK.
'Editors'? What an admirably quaint concept! Haha!
|
|
|
Post by King Gillibran on Nov 17, 2022 12:10:08 GMT
Oh, you're an FF author? Cool! Which books are yours (if you don't mind me asking)?
Re. the Scholastic series: I have been wondering why all the reprints are SJ/IL books, and there seem to be very few other authors doing new ones. I think it should be really important to get other authors on board, to have different ideas coming in. It's hard to imagine the original series would have been as successful if SJ/IL had just gone it alone - many of my favorite FFs are not books written by them.
My books are The Riddling Reaver, Slaves of the Abyss, Black Vein Prophecy, The Crimson Tide and Magehunter. As for whether it's 'important' to have other authors on board, I think it boils down to 'important to whom'. As the decisions are made by Steve and Ian, I think it should be evident that getting other authors on board is not important to them. Hello Paul One of my favourite FF characters is the Riddling Reaver and I really enjoy Slaves of the Abyss. Haven't yet got the other two and I am not sure Magehunter will be coming my way with anything less than selling a car.
|
|
|
Post by King Gillibran on Nov 17, 2022 12:18:28 GMT
I'm going to take a lot of convincing to buy the 2 new ones. Unless these forums absolutely explode with praise for them, I'll save my money. They've just burned too much goodwill with me. Secrets of Salamonis is the best gamebook Steve has done. (and Jonathan Green has helped and he one of my 3rd favourite Author.) It is in the area of Trolltooth pass and is very much a prequel to Trolltooth Wars or Creature of Havoc and Citadel of Chaos. There is actually a strange sort of death paragraph where you are taken to the Grand Wizard of Yore to be taught magic to go on a mission to the Citadel of Chaos. Shadow of the Giants is another brilliant gamebook. A return to Firetop Mountain but with no Zagor. Excellent friends like Crypt of the Sorcerer but very possible. While not quite up to the standards of Deathtrap Dungeon it is easily his best gamebook since puffin.
|
|
|
Post by King Gillibran on Nov 17, 2022 12:20:15 GMT
This is a real shame. Has it happened to everyone? I still haven't played any of the latest ones. Mine aren't flaking at all. And they are not the most gently treated. I even left them on the floor for a few nights.
|
|
Blackheart
Squire
Formerly known as Symm. Razaak raised me from the dead.
Posts: 42
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
|
Post by Blackheart on Nov 21, 2022 9:29:46 GMT
If your old books are falling apart, by those old books again. I totally agree!
|
|
|
Post by paperexplorer on Jun 19, 2023 5:53:31 GMT
Just out of curiosity, and it is a minor quibble, but does anyone else dislike the size of the scholastic books?
I know they are the same size as the second run from wizard, and no I'm not find of that either.
|
|
|
Post by CharlesX on Jun 19, 2023 6:54:05 GMT
Well-said paperexplorer Scholastic gamebooks have gone with a bulky size and shape reminiscent of VHS tapes or 3DO\NeoGeo cartridges, and I can't for the life of me think why. They are in large print 'for no reason at all'; an audience of young people wouldn't want either a bigger shape or especially large print. If it's to show off the golden spine then that looks tacky to begin with and deteriorates after just a few weeks. Edit: I assume by everyone else's silence we're pretty much the only two people here who feel strongly about this; I've said before I feel paper print quality could be better and it seems like I'm one of about three people for whom this is a deal-breaker. As has been said elsewhere the war means the publishers don't have a choice about that. For me whole 'shaped like a VHS tape' gives FF a 20th-century, penny-dreadful\Stephen King feel which doesn't seem particularly apt for FF. I've no idea if young people would actually prefer that size (my suspicion is not, and that the publishers are just being nuts), but if they were I've never been one to follow what most other people do .
|
|
|
Post by The Editor (Alex B) on Jun 20, 2023 19:05:57 GMT
The change in book size will no doubt be some sort of ‘grabbing space on the shop shelf’ thing.
|
|
|
Post by a moderator on Jun 20, 2023 21:44:53 GMT
It's the same size that the original run of Steve Jackson's Sorcery! was.
|
|
|
Post by paperexplorer on Jun 21, 2023 10:25:10 GMT
The change in book size will no doubt be some sort of ‘grabbing space on the shop shelf’ thing. I hadn't thought of the shelf presence at book store angle, but it's a fair point. They can't demand the shelf space they used to have (and oh wasn't it a glorious sight as a kid seeing an entire shelf of green spines!) so bigger size gets a better presence I suppose. I think they should go down the matching spines angle though. The current gold, silver, purple pattern I have on my shelf could easily be mistaken for unrelated books.
|
|
|
Post by hallucination on Jun 21, 2023 10:43:35 GMT
Yeah… though, the matching spine thing is cool for our bookshelves at home, but on my last visit to a Waterstones the Scholastic FFs were shelved separately under H, J, L, and P
|
|