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Post by zoove on Aug 8, 2023 23:57:24 GMT
Was re-directed to this thread after stopping by the Secrets of Salamonis thread to express my distaste for this new format. I only bought SoS in this format, because there IS no other format. But personally, I'm happy to pay well over the odds for the originals. I'm like a lot of people here (I'm assuming), in that I had a boat load of the originals from when I was a kid in the 80s and then my parents threw them away when I moved out. Time passes, and then you get nostalgic, and so I was lucky enough to find a set of Sorcery in the original format for about AU$100 and it was worth EVERY penny. The book format, the illustrations, type setting, paper...everything is just beautiful.
Question I posed in the other thread was: I would love to see stats on whether younger readers are actually picking these up, or if the FF team would be better off creating a really spiffy set of reprints in the original format for people like us, and follow that format through to the new books. The SoS illustrations are really nice, and I hate seeing them in this terrible format.
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Post by paperexplorer on Aug 9, 2023 5:40:42 GMT
New format or not, the series in general hasn't stuck with my kids with most books being abandoned mid adventure on first read or after one attempt
Comments my kids have made on the newer books are: - Artwork is terrible (excluding the two releases from last year) - the starting premise is the same (you are an adventurer looking to make a fortune is very repetitious) - confusing (this one comes out with the open world books, I think being pushed in a direction is better for them)
They are currently reading Rick Riordan books (Percy Jackson adventures)
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Post by pip on Aug 9, 2023 9:35:22 GMT
I gave a second hand copy of Deathtrap Dungeon to a young family member, she also gave up mid adventure even though it's like the perfect introductory book. She had enjoyed shorter gamebooks aimed at younger audiences, but DD was unfortunately quickly abandoned. I think she found it too long and couldn't be bothered reading rules and rolling dice. I'm afraid today's kids are no longer the target audience for FF.
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 9, 2023 10:17:59 GMT
I don't know the exact age or gender of your family member, if that were to change things, but Deathtrap Dungeon like City Of Thieves has to be mapped out with a flow diagram, and is ambitious and slightly linear. Bizarrely some of my favourites as a kid (in the '80s & '90s, so a different generation and time) were FF such as Space Assassin and Midnight Rogue that weren't terribly deep. By the sounds of things though your young family member has already made up their mind - but I highly doubt there is no audience for all gamebooks, after all people continue to play boardgames. Perhaps the market has just changed, which might not be such a bad thing. In the eighties when Warhammmer was in its infancy most wargames, even the so-called basic-level ones, were seriously complicated and had rulebooks as long as average novels, which was why many such as me were turned off\intimidated by the choice; of course Games Workshop's popular gaming has transformed that.
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Post by scouserob on Aug 9, 2023 11:06:49 GMT
For a more optimistic take on current teenagers' views on Fighting Fantasy:
I tried both my sons with Fighting Fantasy books.
They enjoyed playing The Wishing Well together until arguments broke out and the younger of the two ended up purposely throwing his brother into the pit trap room. 😬
The younger never got into the numbered FF books but the elder is building quite the collection now. He prefers the older versions and their art to the recent scholastic re-releases and is particular enough to specifically ask for the Wizard Series 1 editions (where they exist) so that there is some sense of uniformity to his shelf. (After a few initial scholastic purchases, I bought him a box set of Sorcery books which began his Wizard editions collection.)
He has donated his Scholastic versions of Creature of Havoc and Citadel of Chaos to a local charity shop and spent his pocket money to replace them. Says a lot about the relative quality of the Scholastic re-releases.
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Post by zoove on Aug 9, 2023 23:35:15 GMT
These are really interesting insights for a relatively new father (son 2.5, daughter 6 months) like myself.
It's my fervent hope that when my kids get older, they'll want to play these with me, but am all too aware that the attention of modern kids is tough to keep. I don't want to sound like an old man (but I'm going to sound like an old man), but when I was a kid, I had comics, a selection of VHS movies taped off the TV (Star Wars trilogy, Indiana Jones, and a few others), scale models, and outdoor pursuits as my whole life. So sitting down to escape into a fascinating world of goblins and warlocks was an amazing pass time, and one our generation had the patience to learn. It's a great love for me...only last night was I making my way across the river in WoFTM.
It's probably wishful thinking to imagine that by the time my son is 10, he'll be even remotely interested in these, given he'll probably be immersed in virtual worlds online. But a man can hope!
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Aug 10, 2023 5:09:43 GMT
I gave a second hand copy of Deathtrap Dungeon to a young family member, she also gave up mid adventure even though it's like the perfect introductory book. She had enjoyed shorter gamebooks aimed at younger audiences, but DD was unfortunately quickly abandoned. I think she found it too long and couldn't be bothered reading rules and rolling dice. I'm afraid today's kids are no longer the target audience for FF. I'm slightly surprised at the idea that your ?niece/cousin gave up because she "couldn't be bothered reading rules and rolling dice". No question for a full gamebook experience you need to do that (and any gamebook which doesn't work well by the rules is seriously flawed), but I'm not sure I always did as a 9 or 10 year old, and I'm sure many of my classmates didn't. stevendoig mentioned that he and his friends had a rule that 'Livingstone=easy; Jackson=hard' because they all just blasted past the fights and stat tests. Proper playing can wait. Also, I realise that I'm stereotyping here, but is Deathtrap Dungeon really the perfect introductory book even for a girl? I'm not as familiar with it as most forum members, but it seems to me more appealing to the average male than female. It emphasises the dank and gruesome aspects of adventuring rather than the eerie, the magical, the heroic responsibilty of a noble quest... if I had to get a young girl I didn't know into FF, I'd probably try with Citadel, Talisman or Shamutanti before almost any IL book. Also Demons of the Deep if we're including out-of-print Puffin books. Those have distinctly gruesome bits in them of course, but they're not themed on them. Scholastic obviously intended The Crystal of Storms to be aimed at girls too.
(Apologies if this is annoying, talking about someone who you know and I don't!)
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Post by zoove on Aug 10, 2023 5:53:44 GMT
I don't want to sound biased (but I'm gonna sound biased)...not sure the world of FF would appeal to many girls. I remember trying to get my younger sister to play some and she was just happy to play some boring CYOA about horse riding or baby sitting lol. Having said that, I would LOVE my daughter to play thru Shamutanti with me one day...I love that book so much.
It may just be that the FF time has passed, and that's ok...each generation has their own thing. I think it's just cool that there's still a loyal community of enthusiasts that I can connect with. I joke about it with my wife ("Be right there, I just have to finish fighting this goblin"), but she just rolls her eyes at me.
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 10, 2023 18:49:32 GMT
New format or not, the series in general hasn't stuck with my kids with most books being abandoned mid adventure on first read or after one attempt Comments my kids have made on the newer books are: - Artwork is terrible (excluding the two releases from last year) - the starting premise is the same (you are an adventurer looking to make a fortune is very repetitious) - confusing (this one comes out with the open world books, I think being pushed in a direction is better for them) They are currently reading Rick Riordan books (Percy Jackson adventures) Heavily ot but I imagine the Percy Jackson books might be appealling for younger readers who dislike newer FF for reasons you've given, I've only seen the films of one and two, and while the concepts seem derivative, the hero is a very everyman type who has learning disabilities, the mythical world is bright and fast-paced, and the messages and characters are more about friendship than treasure and slaying. All the same, and I don't think this is hypocritical even though I haven't read the books, I don't quite get why it sells so well (Like Harry Potter). With Harry Potter they built a big, ambitious franchise and movie series around it; with Percy Jackson the first movie had some good action sequences but so-so acting, the second film was pretty mediocre.
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Post by paperexplorer on Aug 11, 2023 8:52:37 GMT
I haven't read any of the Percy Jackson stuff. It does come across as derivative, Riordan is essentially retelling Greek myths in a modern context (Percy Jackson is Perseus), but credit to him on repackaging the stories and making them appealing to his audience.
On the comment around shorter attention spans, I think this is a little overstated in a lot of ways. A child who can read the entire Harry Potter series does not have a short attention span. What they have is lower tolerance for things that aren't to their taste. In our times we used to watch whatever was on TV. Today's kids have netflix and similar services, giving them what they want when they want. Expectation levels are different. I don't think attention is part of it.
Honestly, if FF wants to appeal to modern kids, they need to look at modern trends and target those, not hang on celebrity authors and simpler writing in bigger fonts with double spacing. I mean real think out the box stuff. Create Allansia in roblox, complete with quests like Forest of Doom and bring characters like Yaztromo alive that way. Make skins of famous FF villains in Minecraft (eg Zanbar Bone) to buy and play with in the game. Make the world are characters real for them.
But I'm not holding my breath. Scholastic don't come across as heavily invested in making FF big again. I mean, we still have to either write in the book or create our own adventure sheets. Seriously, how hard is it to create an Adventurers hub online for pdf adventure sheets? That's the first thing I'd do if I were in charge.
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 11, 2023 9:10:05 GMT
Percy Jackson does sort of remind me of Ulysses 31, which I loved growing up, although frankly it isn't\couldn't be a patch on that phenomenal series!
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Aug 16, 2023 21:13:02 GMT
I don't want to sound biased (but I'm gonna sound biased)...not sure the world of FF would appeal to many girls. I remember trying to get my younger sister to play some and she was just happy to play some boring CYOA about horse riding or baby sitting lol. Having said that, I would LOVE my daughter to play thru Shamutanti with me one day...I love that book so much. It may just be that the FF time has passed, and that's ok...each generation has their own thing. I think it's just cool that there's still a loyal community of enthusiasts that I can connect with. I joke about it with my wife ("Be right there, I just have to finish fighting this goblin"), but she just rolls her eyes at me. It's true that it can hardly be a fluke that, for example, of the 50-odd members of this forum who've posted 50+ times, I know of two who are female and nearly all the rest are explicitly male. Of those, Klea is really a Sorcery specialist and Tammy/Khaxan has always been something of a unique character! What seems plausible is that some attractions for boys about FF are unlikely to be so for the bulk of girls. Just the name for a start: young boys are usually interested in fighting (at least theoretically); less so girls. 'Fantasy' might be at least as interesting to girls as boys, but only if it's 'clean' – more about flying horses and dragons than the spilling of fetid orc entrails. Girls are stereotypically more interested in social skills and character from an earlier age. Again, they are less interested in fighting so will be less likely to tolerate endless rounds of combat which are objectively boring. They will probably also be less impressed by 'cool numbers' in fights and tests. "Wow! This does double damage" or "Wow, this makes my SKILL a really high number". I included Talisman in my list without really thinking about why. On reflection: – It has a strong cast of characters, notably several strong and/or interesting female characters: the Shieldmaiden, the horsewomen of Fell-Kyrinla, Lillantha, Cassandra and of course Hawkana. – Very little of the adventure is slimy or stinky: locations include a woodland glade with a druid and a pet(ish) wolf, an encounter with horsewomen on the open ground, dinner with a sage, a magic show, a temple, open plains, a waterfall and a dragon's lair. – Even though your character needs to be an excellent fighter, much of the book turns on making choices to avoid confrontation – whether with the horsewomen, the thieves, Tyutchev and Cassandra or the Hogmen.
Anyway, I think what I'm saying is that maybe FF is inevitably more a male thing than female but a slightly different series of books with slightly different presentation might have been more of a 60:40 or 70:30 split rather than 95:5 – and that maybe you shouldn't give up on catching your daughter's interest too easily.
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Post by paperexplorer on Aug 20, 2023 1:54:48 GMT
Growing up when my parents took us on a long road trip they'd buy us books for the trip. I distinctly remember one trip where I got Fangs of Fury and Stealer of Souls, and my sister got 2 x Baby Sitters Club books.
I can tell you right now, there was zero consideration from either of us to read each other's books. I don't think there is anything wrong with that either btw. Play to your audience and own it. If FF had a cover early in the 80s like Crystal of Storms had it would have even a disaster.
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 20, 2023 20:00:00 GMT
I don't want to sound biased (but I'm gonna sound biased)...not sure the world of FF would appeal to many girls. I remember trying to get my younger sister to play some and she was just happy to play some boring CYOA about horse riding or baby sitting lol. Having said that, I would LOVE my daughter to play thru Shamutanti with me one day...I love that book so much. It may just be that the FF time has passed, and that's ok...each generation has their own thing. I think it's just cool that there's still a loyal community of enthusiasts that I can connect with. I joke about it with my wife ("Be right there, I just have to finish fighting this goblin"), but she just rolls her eyes at me. It's true that it can hardly be a fluke that, for example, of the 50-odd members of this forum who've posted 50+ times, I know of two who are female and nearly all the rest are explicitly male. Of those, Klea is really a Sorcery specialist and Tammy/Khaxan has always been something of a unique character! What seems plausible is that some attractions for boys about FF are unlikely to be so for the bulk of girls. Just the name for a start: young boys are usually interested in fighting (at least theoretically); less so girls. 'Fantasy' might be at least as interesting to girls as boys, but only if it's 'clean' – more about flying horses and dragons than the spilling of fetid orc entrails. Girls are stereotypically more interested in social skills and character from an earlier age. Again, they are less interested in fighting so will be less likely to tolerate endless rounds of combat which are objectively boring. They will probably also be less impressed by 'cool numbers' in fights and tests. "Wow! This does double damage" or "Wow, this makes my SKILL a really high number". I included Talisman in my list without really thinking about why. On reflection: – It has a strong cast of characters, notably several strong and/or interesting female characters: the Shieldmaiden, the horsewomen of Fell-Kyrinla, Lillantha, Cassandra and of course Hawkana. – Very little of the adventure is slimy or stinky: locations include a woodland glade with a druid and a pet(ish) wolf, an encounter with horsewomen on the open ground, dinner with a sage, a magic show, a temple, open plains, a waterfall and a dragon's lair. – Even though your character needs to be an excellent fighter, much of the book turns on making choices to avoid confrontation – whether with the horsewomen, the thieves, Tyutchev and Cassandra or the Hogmen.
Anyway, I think what I'm saying is that maybe FF is inevitably more a male thing than female but a slightly different series of books with slightly different presentation might have been more of a 60:40 or 70:30 split rather than 95:5 – and that maybe you shouldn't give up on catching your daughter's interest too easily.
Bullet-point some reasons why FF might attract more of a male audience than females:
FF is full of fighting, and has its own elaborate system for doing so. A majority of FF has dark antagonists and a protaganist who is gloomy and violent. Even where you don't fight, spells (e.g. so-called neutral ones) tend be about destruction, not healing.
Women tend to prefer multiple solutions to a problem (whether or not you like CYOA, it's quite good at this). FF often if not always has a single path through to a victory. On related points, that victory is often either hard or very hard, not just in finding the path which can be counter-intuitive but more in dice-rolling. Deaths are often drawn-out and wouldn't be out-of-place in a 15 film. FF often rely on single-use 'magic' items that are never fully explained. When you do win, your victory is often about picking up masses of gold and\or saving the world.
FFs artwork is sharply-drawn which effectively conveys harsh worlds. Perhaps that was what they were going for with the more kiddie-orientated cover for Stormslayer, which looks too inoffensive. Perhaps they can't win. The heavy bookkeeping in many FFs, often of very male concepts such as "Honour", "Stamina" or "Time", is something women might not go for. I don't think the two fathers of FF would have an attractive writing style to women. Steve Jackson writes about male things like warlocks, space, superheroes, mutants, horror. Ian Livingstone doesn't flesh out either his description or his world, and his gameplay style is old-school rather than friendly. FF has a lot of technical errors, more than it should really.
I think the two new FFs are very much addressing some of these points, in likelihood without trying to. It seems like a product can sometimes not be all things to all people (unless it's a really good one); CYOA is too aimed at young people, My Little Pony has a majority female audience, D&D isn't christian enough, Tolkien is too cliche, etc.
I personally don't think a single female author within 75 FF gamebooks is a big deal, although perhaps being male my view isn't as valid about that, but I do think it might be meme-esque. Gamebooks like Gates Of Death and Clash Of The Princes are hands-down worse than hers.
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Post by paperexplorer on Aug 20, 2023 22:17:12 GMT
I don't think most girls would have gone past the covers. And, let's be honest,the 80s were simpler times. Not many mothers would be letting their daughters wallk out of a shop with Deathtrap Dungeon.
That's not to say girls can't or shouldn't get into FF btw, just that what was fir boys and what was for girls was pretty rigid back then.
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