Chronology of Gamebooks

[King Gillibran]

Hey guys

Has anyone ever done detailed research into which gamebooks came before or after each other according to texts. and could people suggest ideas they have. I mean not when they where puplished but like Caverns of the snow Witch comes before Forest of Doom.

Thanks

[kieran]

Oct 25, 2022 13:11:53 GMT King Gillibran said:

Hey guys

Has anyone ever done detailed research into which gamebooks came before or after each other according to texts. and could people suggest ideas they have. I mean not when they where puplished but like Caverns of the snow Witch comes before Forest of Doom.

Thanks

Most of the books take place in the 280s AC, but I think it's less clear where they all fit in that period exactly There's a few obvious ones:

1. Warlock of Firetop Mountain > Return to Firetop Mountain > Legend of Zagor (Casket of Souls also must precede this)
2. City of Thieves > Assassins of Allansia > Deathtrap Dungeon > Trial of Champions > Armies of Death
3. Caverns of the Snow Witch > Forest of Doom > Temple of Terror
4. Riddling Reaver > Slaves of the Abyss > Magehunter
5. Black Vein Prophecy > The Crimson Tide
6. Vault of the Vampire > Revenge of the Vampire

There's clearly some time passed between Masks of Mayhem and Deathmoor, but it's unclear how much or which book comes first. Tasks of Tantalon comes a good while before the other Old World books. Eye of the Dragon comes after most of the other Yaztromo books as he becomes the Grand Wizard of Yore in that book.

I've seen other interesting bits of speculation - Night Dragon is the Dark Elves trying to make amends after the events of Tower of Destruction and Siege of Sardath is a good one. Also that Flaxenmane of Silverton (the dead hero you come across in Creature of Havoc) may have been the hero of Forest of Doom and Temple of Terror. It may also been the same hero in Crypt of the Sorcerer as they seem to have an existing relationship with Yaztromo.

I agree it would be interesting to get a proper timeline though it would be an arduous task and I imagine there would be numerous inconsistencies.

[misomiso]

As far as I know all the Ian Livingstone ones are in chronological order and have internal consistency, 'supposedly'.  I think even you aresupposed to be the same character in a lot of them. 

There are other links in the series - quite often guest authors created their own little patch of the world and set their books there.  I think all of Stephen Hands books are linked for example.

Secrets of Salamonis, the most recent SJ one, is set before the Trolltooth wars if that is any help.

[kieran]

Oct 25, 2022 14:56:07 GMT misomiso said:

As far as I know all the Ian Livingstone ones are in chronological order and have internal consistency, 'supposedly'.  

Definitely not in exact chronological order since Caverns is set before Forest and Assassins leads into Deathtrap Dungeon.

[misomiso]

Ah ok.

[peasantscribbler]

It would be interesting to work it all out. I suspect anyone who does so would eventually resort to using some sort of Titan multiverse idea to work out all of the inconsistencies and continuity errors.

[Law]

Legend of the Shadow Warriors and Moonrunner take place a few years after the War of the Four Kingdoms (175 to 178 AC), so in the 180's.

The events of Vault (take place close after the war too) and Revenge of the Vampire are notably and actively mentioned to be separated by exactly one hundred years. So 180-190 to 280-290

Temple of Terror definitely follows on from Forest of Doom with the same protagonist for me due to its prologue.

And the adventurer from Caverns of the Snow Witch must be a different individual and take place slightly before FoD because it references the theft of the king's hammer and the war with the trolls still being unsettled.

The protagonist is decidedly unfamiliar with the conflict, unless the protag of CoTSW contracted amnesia from surviving that Death Spell. 

Deathtrap Dungeon begins in 275 according to Titan and is finally beaten in 283 after destroying eight teams of adventurers over the years.

We don't know how quickly Sukumvit rebrands the Walk but I like to think it's a mere year after as Carnuss wants to hammer home his big brother's humiliation.

There's absolutely no indication that the adventurer who defeats the ToC is the same one who beat the dungeon before. Surely that would be mentioned, however obliquely, though I guess you can headcanon it if you so desire. (Not me though!)

Assassins of Allansia's attempts to canon-weld sadly contradicts the prologue of Deathtrap Dungeon, come on, Ian! 

Though I do like a continuing meet-up with Yaztromo from an introduction to him in Port of Peril, to reuniting in RtFM and finally aiding him again in CoTS.

I hear the new Secrets of Salamonis is the prequel to Citadel of Chaos? I choose to think that CoH takes place concurrently to tie in with the novels where both dark sorcerers' power-bases are dismantled at once.

[zimgief]

The Night of the Necromancer is set after Knights of Doom, as one of the pre-made characters is the hero of that one:
"He is a member of the Knights of Telak, and got his start as a crusader against evil by stopping the plans of the wizard Belgaroth, marking him as the hero of Knights of Doom. "
fightingfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Evrain_Peredur

[Gabe Fandango]

Moonrunner is after Legend of the Shadow Warriors because Doktor Kauderwelsch is alive in the latter, but has since died and reassembled as a "Frankenstein's monster"-style creature by her son in the former.

Phantoms of Fear presumably happens after Deathtrap Dungeon because the PC may dream of Lord Carnuss and his arena. It's not clear whether it's before, after or simultaneous with Trial of Champions (since the dream could be a foretelling type).

[King Gillibran]

Secrets of Salamonis is before citadel of Chaos and while creature of Havoc is going. and foretells warlock of firetop mountain.
Port of Peril contradicts itself. in the background it says you are searching for Throm's treasure who died in Deathtrap Dungeon but at paragraph 400 it Hakasan says there is a purse of 10000 gp for DD but if Throm is dead then the first DD is completed so it would be Trial of Champions but that is 20000 gp. I would remove the Throm Treasure bit and have it still DD
City of Thieves > port of peril > Assassins of Allansia > DD have gold taken by Azzur and allowed to live go to Island of the Lizard King > on the way back captured on boat > trial of Champpions > Armies of death
I think Citadel of Chaos could come after WoFM because you get a spell book and go learn magic in yore and do CoC then after that you increase power and make the Galleykeep and so lead on to CoH.

More Thoughts please.

[misomiso]

Ok so for the IL books: -

City of Thieves
Port of peril
Assassins of Allansia
Deathtrap Dungeon
Island of the Lizard King
Trial of Champions
Armies of Death

For the SJ ones:-
Secrets of Salamonis
Creature of Havoc
Citadel of Chaos

I don't think it's necessary that you are the same hero in all the SJ ones, as that was something that IL has talked about. As in I don't think there is a 'canon' where you are the same person it Citadel of Chaos as another book for example.

[Law]

Oct 26, 2022 10:36:13 GMT King Gillibran said:

Secrets of Salamonis is before citadel of Chaos and while creature of Havoc is going. and foretells warlock of firetop mountain.
Port of Peril contradicts itself. in the background it says you are searching for Throm's treasure who died in Deathtrap Dungeon but at paragraph 400 it Hakasan says there is a purse of 10000 gp for DD but if Throm is dead then the first DD is completed so it would be Trial of Champions but that is 20000 gp. I would remove the Throm Treasure bit and have it still DD
City of Thieves > port of peril > Assassins of Allansia > DD have gold taken by Azzur and allowed to live go to Island of the Lizard King > on the way back captured on boat > trial of Champpions > Armies of death
I think Citadel of Chaos could come after WoFM because you get a spell book and go learn magic in yore and do CoC then after that you increase power and make the Galleykeep and so lead on to CoH.

More Thoughts please.

These are my two personal timelines which I cobbled together as two separate Lone Wolf-esque campaigns. One for a cabin boy sailor to holy knight, the other for a wif-wolf witch to pre-eminent sorceress. Old World protagonists rise up!

Probably contradicted by the release of new books but hey, you do you! I was more concerned with accruing epic gear and different abilities and stat-keeping for lots of fights.

Both characters do get rather long in the tooth to keep on adventuring but Titan is a death world, so humans there must be built different, and there's probably magic similar to the fountain of youth lying around.

- 255 AC, Birth

- 267 AC, Clam Beach put to the torch, prologue of Bloodbones

- 277 AC, main events of Bloodbones

- 278 AC, Scorpion Swamp

- 279 AC, Warlock of Firetop Mountain

- 280 AC, Keep of the Lich Lord

- 281 AC, City of Thieves -> Dungeoneer! -> Blacksand!

- 282 AC, Forest of Doom -> Temple of Terror

- 283 AC, Deathtrap Dungeon -> Island of the Lizard King

- 284 AC, Master of Chaos

- 287 AC, Knights of Doom

- 288 AC, Portal of Evil

- 289 AC, Beneath Nightmare Castle -> Allansia!

- 290 AC, Stealer of Souls

- 293 AC, Spellbreaker

- 296 AC, Night Dragon

- 298 AC, Slaves of The Abyss -> FIN

Female play-through is a bit of a harder novelty to do, some illustrations clearly give you man hands despite gender neutral writing! Glamyr FTW!

- 244 AC, Birth

- 258 AC, Howl of The Werewolf

- 262 AC, Demons of The Deep

- 265 AC, Seas of Blood

- 271 AC, Curse of The Mummy

- 281 AC, Midnight Rogue -> Dungeoneer! -> Blacksand!

- 282 AC, Caverns of The Snow Witch -> Port of Peril (Don't believe it's ever mentioned that that's the same Throm you then go on to meet in AoA / DD?)

- 283 AC, Assassins of Allansia (tough to canon-weld but loved the John Wick contract-killer plot)

- 284 AC, Trial of Champions -> Armies of Death

- 287 AC, Stormslayer

- 289 AC, Return to Firetop Mountain -> Allansia! (perhaps the only book [RtFM] where you're directly referred to as male! Whoops)

- 290 AC, Crypt of The Sorcerer

- 291 AC, Creature of Havoc

- 293 AC, Citadel of Chaos

- 295 AC, Revenge of The Vampire

- 296 AC, Legend of Zagor

- 298 AC, SORCERY! -> TBC?

One hell of a century for Titan!

[kieran]

Oct 26, 2022 12:18:25 GMT misomiso said:

I don't think it's necessary that you are the same hero in all the SJ ones, as that was something that IL has talked about.

I don't think it can work for all the IL books either. The hero of Forest is definitely not the hero of Caverns as the former knows nothing about the hammer which the latter would do. The hero of Return to Firetop Mountain does not seem to be the hero of Warlock.

Some of the others are less clear-cut, but I think it's unlikely you're the same hero. The hero of Deathtrap Dungeon probably would have mentioned to Mungo if they had succeeded at the trial. The hero of DD probably also isn't the hero of Trial of Champions and Armies of Death since Sukumvit gives no indication of recognising them. The hero of Caverns speculates about the fate of Zagor so is probably not the hero of Warlock of Firetop Mountain. The heroes of Return to Firetop Mountain and Eye of the Dragon do not seem to have met Yaztromo before. The hero of Armies of Death is probably unlikely to return to solo adventuring.

My understanding is the hero of Assassins of Allansia turns out to be

SPOILER: Click to show

the Ninja from Deathtrap Dungeon

so their career must end there.

The hero of Warlock must be very wealthy so is unlikely to be a penniless adventurer in a later book.

I also think it makes more sense to place Port after DD - there's an inconsistency either way but it seems like the lesser inconsistency.

So if you wanted to say some IL books have the same heroes, you could maybe go with this:

Hero A (Yaztromo's Pal)
1. Forest of Doom
2. Temple of Terror
3. Crypt of the Sorcerer
4. Warlock of Firetop Mountain
5. Deathtrap Dungeon (the hero is specified to want glory rather than gold so is probably a) financially secure and b) pretty cocky in their abilities as this hero surely would be)

Hero B (Tattooed Forehead Guy)
1. Caverns of the Snow Witch
2. City of Thieves
3. Assassins of Allansia

Hero C (Rags to Riches)
1. Port of Peril
2. Island of the Lizard King
3. Trial of Champions (maybe you were picked up rowing back from Fire Island?)
4. Armies of Death

I don't think Eye or Return can fit with any of these three chronologies or with each other. I also don't know Shadow of the Giants well enough to place it.

[King Gillibran]

Wow this is facinating what people think up. I am mainly interested in North Western Allansia and I think that with many adventures there are clues to others so you could work out when the adventures happen. some surely happening at the same time like PoP and FoD. because of Bignose looking for Bigleg Bigleg must have gone but you must not be out of the forest. Oh yeah and it never says anything about not knowing Yaztromo in Eye of the Dragon so I count it in the Yaztromo's pal series.

[kieran]

Oct 27, 2022 5:57:25 GMT King Gillibran said:

Oh yeah and it never says anything about not knowing Yaztromo in Eye of the Dragon so I count it in the Yaztromo's pal series.

I think in that case you would probably need to swap it with Warlock of Firetop Mountain (you couldn't place it before Warlock as Yaztromo doesn't appear to be the Grand Wizard of Yore yet in Return to Firetop Mountain) and place it before Deathtrap Dungeon since the hero of either would be too wealthy to contemplate Henry Delacor's offer. Also I feel the hero of Forest would probably mention they buried Bigleg to Littlebig but it's not beyond the realms of possibility that they wouldn't.

[paperexplorer]

Shadow of the Giants occurs after Island of the Lizard King as Marik om-yash fought in the battle on Fire Island

Actually, I was a bit miffed he didn't recognise me. I led that army and killed the lizard king. I know it happened over 30 years ago, but still...

[Law]

Oct 26, 2022 16:23:32 GMT kieran said:

My understanding is the hero of Assassins of Allansia turns out to be

SPOILER: Click to show

the Ninja from Deathtrap Dungeon

so their career must end there.

The hero of Warlock must be very wealthy so is unlikely to be a penniless adventurer in a later book.

I also think it makes more sense to place Port after DD - there's an inconsistency either way but it seems like the lesser inconsistency.

So if you wanted to say some IL books have the same heroes, you could maybe go with this:

Hero A (Yaztromo's Pal)
1. Forest of Doom
2. Temple of Terror
3. Crypt of the Sorcerer
4. Warlock of Firetop Mountain
5. Deathtrap Dungeon (the hero is specified to want glory rather than gold so is probably a) financially secure and b) pretty cocky in their abilities as this hero surely would be)

Hero B (Tattooed Forehead Guy)
1. Caverns of the Snow Witch
2. City of Thieves
3. Assassins of Allansia

Hero C (Rags to Riches)
1. Port of Peril
2. Island of the Lizard King
3. Trial of Champions (maybe you were picked up rowing back from Fire Island?)
4. Armies of Death

I like it! Really good interpretation. Though for my part, the "murderer" of Zanbar Bone who's being hunted should more likely be the protag of Port of Peril, as many of the assassins aren't sure of your identity when it should be easy to guess if you have the very obvious forehead tattoo!

And what's more likely? That Lord Azzur goes to the effort of hiring a whole assassination guild and simultaneously plots for his master's return? Or his master's big comeback is foiled and then he really loses it? Plus Zanbar's end in PoP is far more... public than his disappearing act in CoT.

I had my witch-wanderer help Yaztromo, Nicodemus and Hakasan Za beat old bone-head. Then once reaching Fang and getting saved by Throm, she reunited with her strongarm friend from the first two multiplayer campaigns in my timeline and used illusionism to swap their appearances when meeting Sukumvit and Azzur.

(I'd already played Deathtrap with my first male character and we know he hadn't met Throm the Barbarian yet.)

Headcanon galore I know! And I suppose being the ninja would make more sense considering you get to spend the 10k and not have it filched by a pirate king but would a ninja have saved Silverton and become a caravan bodyguard oop north beforehand? Go back to Hachiman, weeb!

[paperexplorer]

What if all the books were part of some giant choose your own adventure across multiple adventures?

Eg. You start in Fang 1 month before the Deathrap Dungeon and you are low on cash. Two opportunities are put to you? Do you accept the challenge to find the golden dragon (turn to Eye of the Dragon), or would you prefer to earn some cash as a strongarm (turn to Caverns of the Snow Witch)

Finish Caverns
Do you choose to help the dwarves (turn to Forest of Doom), or prefer to venture to nearby Firetop Mountain and search for riches there (turn to warlock of Firetop Mountain)

Ending of Forest of Doom and Eye of the Dragon converge at the same spot (dwarves celebrate returnof their hammer), turn to Temple of Terror

From Firetop Mountain you choose to continue being an adventurer turn to... City of Thieves?

You get the idea

[scouserob]

Sounds fun. 😀
It has probably been discussed before but it would be great taking a character through a few adventures whilst keeping, between the books, say only 1 of each armour type (Shield, Helmet, Mail, etc.) and a weapon with their attack strength or other bonuses.

All other items get sold off for travel/living expenses between books, your stats return to their initial values and all your provisions/gold are reset to the proper levels for the next book.

I wonder if a Skill 7 adventurer could gather enough different attack strength boosts in the easier books to take on the more difficult ones, especially if taking on the stories chronologically.