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Post by CharlesX on Apr 23, 2023 13:18:58 GMT
This thread will post first the results from the 24 least favourite poll from absolute worst (with any ties being resolved by their position, not their points in round one), and after that the results (based again on position not points) from all the other rounds, the first I might be able to post as soon as Monday, the entire results might take a few days to work out\find time to do. Both 'final 4' and 'absolute worst' will be over tonight at 10 p.m..
Slightly disappointed we haven't had quite as many vote for the 'absolute worst' as the main poll, I don't know whether that's because people don't own the books, think it's too mean-spirited, have poll fatigue, or just prefer the main results, but if people aren't so keen on the 'absolute worst' poll I can also write results up which only incorporate the main poll. I've a feeling part of it is about the distinction between 'worst' and 'least-favourite'. Thank you everyone for participating as apart from a couple of votes midway through when I accidentally put through Warlock this has gone well. I wonder how many will have voted April Fool?
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Post by CharlesX on Apr 24, 2023 7:06:15 GMT
First 25 absolute worst\least-favourite:
1. Gates Of Death 2. Blood Of The Zombies 3. Starship Traveller 4. Sky Lord 5. Chasms Of Malice 6. Star Strider 7. Eye Of The Dragon 8. Clash Of The Prince's The Warrior's Way 9. Legend Of Zagor 10. Appointment with FEAR 11. Crystal Of Storms 12. Space Assassin
13. Rings Of Kether 14. Armies Of Death \ Freeway Fighter (Tie on here & round one) 15. Crypt Of The Sorceror 16. Deathmoor 17. Port Of Peril 18. April Fool
19. Return To Firetop Mountain \ Tower Of Destruction \ Assassins Of Allansia (Tie)
20. Revenge Of The Vampire 21. Keep Of The Lich-Lord 22. Curse Of The Mummy
Ranking the remainder will take some time so sit tight and wait for the ranking over the next week or so!
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Post by CharlesX on Apr 24, 2023 7:28:13 GMT
Few thoughts:
There seems to have been some nuanced voting here. Curse Of The Mummy has two big failings, its absence of replayability (because it has lots of combats and tests like Knights Of Doom, as well as being rather dry) and its difficulty, the latter of which is very noticeable when playing the original reprint rather than the welcome if flawed revision. I get the feeling people are saying its mediocre rather than poor, which given other failings such as lots of Green letter-to-number conversion, some technical errors, and above all it just not being Green's best, I agree with. I've a feeling Chasms Of Malice and Crypt Of The Sorceror wouldn't be so low if it weren't for their outrageous difficulty as well, although there are definitely other factors. I agree with Starship Traveller's harsh ranking because at least gamebooks like Eye Of The Dragon and Legend Of Zagor can be played and even enjoyed a bit even if they arguably aren't brilliant (Legend Of Zagor might be higher if it weren't for the poorly-designed magic and character system as well as some technical errors and ambiguities).
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,462
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Apr 24, 2023 7:45:19 GMT
Curse Of The Mummy has two big failings, its absence of replayability (because it has lots of combats and tests like Knights Of Doom, as well as being rather dry)
Well, it is in the desert after all Star Strider being the 6th worst book seems pretty harsh. It definitely has its flaws but it has a lot to recommend it too. Appointment with FEAR seems to be the most marmite book in the series so unsurprised to see it in the bottom 10. I imagine if we took an average of its places between this poll and another where people vote for their favourites it would be right in the middle of the pack. |
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Post by petch on Apr 24, 2023 10:00:31 GMT
1. Gates Of Death 2. Blood Of The Zombies
Bah. I've said it before but I have a soft spot for both of these two. I take some crumb of comfort from the fact that of the 22 people who voted in the worst of the worst poll, only 14 voters put these two in their bottom five, so while they have been established as the forum's least favourite two books, at least they're not universally loathed. Although now that I think about it, an alternative and frankly more plausible reason for that might be because a big chunk of those eight voters didn't vote for them simply because they haven't read them, and I uniquely have such awful taste. |
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Post by CharlesX on Apr 24, 2023 12:32:57 GMT
Curse Of The Mummy has two big failings, its absence of replayability (because it has lots of combats and tests like Knights Of Doom, as well as being rather dry)
Well, it is in the desert after all Star Strider being the 6th worst book seems pretty harsh. It definitely has its flaws but it has a lot to recommend it too. Appointment with FEAR seems to be the most marmite book in the series so unsurprised to see it in the bottom 10. I imagine if we took an average of its places between this poll and another where people vote for their favourites it would be right in the middle of the pack. I haven't played Star Strider for a very long time and don't have it anymore, but my memory of Star Strider is, good concept, writing and illustrations, rubbishy execution and gameplay. Even more than others it suffers from the curse of sci-fi FFs that they can't be as exciting as Fantasy FFs no matter their other qualities. I'm continually amazed to see it behind Eye Of The Dragon and Sky Lord; having read it and agreeing with you it is underwhelming rather than awful, I can only guess why others here may dislike it. Because it is sci-fi? Because the gameplay isn't as memorable and exciting as other sci-fi such as Space Assassin and Rings Of Kether?
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Post by CharlesX on Apr 24, 2023 13:05:04 GMT
These are the flipside of the least-favourite: the gamebooks which did not receive a single vote from round one
City Of Thieves Creature Of Havoc Demons Of The Deep Siege Of Sardath
Some of these are a bit surprising, City Of Thieves can be annoying and is less brilliant than Deathtrap Dungeon imo (I'm guessing the vote against Deathtrap Dungeon was a bit of a protest about its difficulty), Creature Of Havoc has been called pretentious by some, presumably the ISTU puzzle was disregarded because most other things about Siege are good, and Demons Of The Deep must have done well because it is extremely well-designed, being forgiving, engaging and challenging.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679 
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Apr 24, 2023 15:00:23 GMT
I agree with these being at the bottom even though I still enjoy some of them, they aren't as good as the ones above it. The only exception being Keep of the Lich Lord which I would swap with The Warlocks Way whatever place that might be at.
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Post by CharlesX on Apr 24, 2023 15:15:34 GMT
I agree with these being at the bottom even though I still enjoy some of them, they aren't as good as the ones above it. The only exception being Keep of the Lich Lord which I would swap with The Warlocks Way whatever place that might be at. I strongly suspect the reason The Warlock's Way isn't in the bottom 25 is because it's comparatively obscure. It's like if you ask someone to criticise a terrible book that once scraped a run of 2000, or Harry Potter, they'll go with the one they've actually heard of. Keep Of The Lich-Lord has all sorts of good things going for it but it can't hold a candle to really good FFs imho.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Apr 24, 2023 22:49:08 GMT
I agree with these being at the bottom even though I still enjoy some of them, they aren't as good as the ones above it. The only exception being Keep of the Lich Lord which I would swap with The Warlocks Way whatever place that might be at. I strongly suspect the reason The Warlock's Way isn't in the bottom 25 is because it's comparatively obscure. It's like if you ask someone to criticise a terrible book that once scraped a run of 2000, or Harry Potter, they'll go with the one they've actually heard of. Keep Of The Lich-Lord has all sorts of good things going for it but it can't hold a candle to really good FFs imho.
I would have thought the same but The Warrior's Way is in the bottom 25 so no reason The Warlock's Way would be more obscure. |
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Post by CharlesX on Apr 25, 2023 6:21:29 GMT
The least-favourite half FF
I may or may not write up the bottom half of these results at some point. Knocking off those FFs which got very few votes (that is, 0, 1 or 2 in rounds one through three) has been effective in making this egalitarian and working out the bottom half but not quite so good in working out the top half, still this is the majority of results.
Bottom 25:
1. Gates Of Death 2. Blood Of The Zombies 3. Starship Traveller 4. Sky Lord 5. Chasms Of Malice 6. Star Strider 7. Eye Of The Dragon 8. Clash Of The Prince's The Warrior's Way 9. Legend Of Zagor 10. Appointment with FEAR 11. Crystal Of Storms 12. Space Assassin 13. Rings Of Kether 14. Armies Of Death\Freeway Fighter (Tie) 15. Crypt Of The Sorceror 16. Deathmoor 17. Port Of Peril 18. April Fool 19. Return To Firetop Mountain\Tower Of Destruction\Assassins Of Allansia (Tie) 20. Revenge Of The Vampire 21. Keep Of The Lich-Lord 22. Curse Of The Mummy
Knocked out in round one:
23. Fangs Of Fury 24. Rebel Planet\Robot Commando\Masks Of Mayhem\Magehunter (Tie)
25. Warlock Of Firetop Mountain\Clash Of The Prince's The Warlock's Way\Seas Of Blood\Daggers Of Darkness (Tie)
26. Spellbreaker\Crimson Tide (Tie)
Knocked out in round two:
27. Battleblade Warrior 28. Forest Of Doom 29. Scorpion Swamp 30. Caverns Of The Snow Witch\Island Of The Undead 31. Shadow Of The Giants\Midnight Rogue 32. Spectral Stalkers
Knocked out in round three:
33. Trial Of Champions 34. Master Of Chaos\Island Of The Lizard King
(46-47 FFs and therefore the majority)
My complicated and not uncontroversial formula for calculation would mean that if I wanted to work out the other half I would be working backwards i.e. book 47 would be Black Vein Prophecy with the books below it just that and those books with 0-2 votes above those (on the basis this is both least-favourite and worst). I rather think these are the more important results out of the two.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,462
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Apr 25, 2023 8:24:44 GMT
I figure I missed a joke here but what does this refer to? |
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Post by CharlesX on Apr 25, 2023 9:02:46 GMT
I figure I missed a joke here but what does this refer to? In the worst of the worst 25 I deliberately included a "April Fool's unnecessarily complicated tenty-fifth option", partly just to make up the numbers to twenty-five but also as a pastiche\take on things like "why not include the cardboard case in Clash Of The Princes" as suggested in the Clash Of The Princes April poll, why we shouldn't include non-FF gamebooks, as a pass\none-of-the-above\joke option. It seems to have beaten Curse Of The Mummy by getting a single vote rather than none in the worst 25 vote. |
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Post by CharlesX on Apr 25, 2023 19:49:26 GMT
I am finding the maths and so on quite difficult so I might leave working out the rest of the results for some time, if ever (i have a life outside this site). I think my entire voting system worked better at determining the bottom half and those FFs which were most average than the top half anyway and I think it would be a bit mean-spirited to try and determine those FFs that are our least least-favourite.
To be a bit completist I shall record a few more, bringing it to the bottom 40:
1. Gates Of Death
2. Blood Of The Zombies
3. Starship Traveller
4. Sky Lord
5. Chasms Of Malice
6. Star Strider
7. Eye Of The Dragon
8. Clash Of The Prince's The Warrior's Way
9. Legend Of Zagor
10. Appointment with FEAR
11. Crystal Of Storms
12. Space Assassin
13. Rings Of Kether
14. Armies Of Death\Freeway Fighter (Tie)
15. Crypt Of The Sorceror
16. Deathmoor
17. Port Of Peril
18. April Fool
19. Return To Firetop Mountain\Tower Of Destruction\Assassins Of Allansia (Tie)
20. Revenge Of The Vampire
21. Keep Of The Lich-Lord
22. Curse Of The Mummy
Knocked out in round one:
23. Fangs Of Fury
24. Rebel Planet\Robot Commando\Masks Of Mayhem\Magehunter (Tie)
25. Warlock Of Firetop Mountain\Clash Of The Prince's The Warlock's Way\Seas Of Blood\Daggers Of Darkness (Tie)
26. Spellbreaker\Crimson Tide (Tie)
Knocked out in round two:
27. Battleblade Warrior
28. Forest Of Doom
29. Scorpion Swamp
30. Caverns Of The Snow Witch\Island Of The Undead
31. Shadow Of The Giants\Midnight Rogue
32. Spectral Stalkers
Knocked out in round three:
33. Trial Of Champions
34. Master Of Chaos\Island Of The Lizard King
Voted down in round four:
35. Phantoms Of Fear
36. Bloodbones 37. Night Dragon
38. Portal Of Evil\Citadel Of Chaos
Voted down in round five:
39. Black Vein Prophecy
40. Sorcery! 2 Khare Cityport Of Traps
Other round five:
41. Sorcery! 1 The Shamutanti Hills\Sorcery! 3 The Seven Serpents
That is the worst 40 counting the April Fool's joke I'm very tired and I don't want to do this anymore!
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Post by CharlesX on Apr 26, 2023 11:28:00 GMT
Out of the last few, it's noticeable how difficulty and random do-or-die rolls are a factor. I very much think Phantoms Of Fear would be higher if it weren't for the 2 do-or-die rolls down one route, as well as the poorly-implemented (useless) spell system, I don't think Waterfield's best work deserves such an average place but maybe people find it too hard or verbose, I would say it isn't a most accessible work. Bloodbones is good but hard with some 'Luke Sharp' rolls at the end. POE and COC were probably not given thumbs up because like POF there was an emphasis on description and a string of encounters and events as much as a developed whole (although POE has excellent world-building, like Robot Commando it is a bit fan service with some superficiality), perhaps people prefer more of a challenge, as well. And Black Vein Prophecy could have escaped being voted average if it weren't for the luck test you have to fail, and technical errors, and writing some people don't like, and difficulty level, and cover, basically if it were a different gamebook.
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Post by CharlesX on Apr 26, 2023 13:59:07 GMT
Before I write the results I must confess to some technical errors - after working out that I was missing 2 FFs out of the 75 I should have I checked and realised that I am two FFs short, having forgotten about them after they scored one vote each in round one. They are Slaves Of The Abyss and Stealer Of Souls. I do apologise. Slaves Of The Abyss perhaps should be on no one's least-favourite list, as for Stealer Of Souls it would also surely have been a top half FF. So my guess is they would both be in the bottom thirty of the least-favourite at least. Apologies again.
1. Gates Of Death
2. Blood Of The Zombies
3. Starship Traveller
4. Sky Lord
5. Chasms Of Malice
6. Star Strider
7. Eye Of The Dragon
8. Clash Of The Prince's The Warrior's Way
9. Legend Of Zagor
10. Appointment with FEAR
11. Crystal Of Storms
12. Space Assassin
13. Rings Of Kether
14. Armies Of Death\Freeway Fighter (Tie)
15. Crypt Of The Sorceror
16. Deathmoor
17. Port Of Peril
18. April Fool
19. Return To Firetop Mountain\Tower Of Destruction\Assassins Of Allansia (Tie)
20. Revenge Of The Vampire
21. Keep Of The Lich-Lord
22. Curse Of The Mummy (No votes in worst 25 poll)
Knocked out in round one:
23. Fangs Of Fury
24. Rebel Planet\Robot Commando\Masks Of Mayhem\Magehunter (Tie)
25. Warlock Of Firetop Mountain\Clash Of The Prince's The Warlock's Way\Seas Of Blood\Daggers Of Darkness (Tie)
26. Spellbreaker\Crimson Tide (Tie)
Knocked out in round two:
27. Battleblade Warrior
28. Forest Of Doom
29. Scorpion Swamp
30. Caverns Of The Snow Witch\Island Of The Undead (Tie)
31. Shadow Of The Giants\Midnight Rogue (Tie)
32. Spectral Stalkers
Knocked out in round three:
33. Trial Of Champions
34. Master Of Chaos\Island Of The Lizard King (Tie)
Voted down in round four:
35. Phantoms Of Fear
36. Bloodbones
37. Night Dragon
38. Portal Of Evil\Citadel Of Chaos (Tie)
Voted down in round five:
39. Black Vein Prophecy
40. Sorcery! 2 Khare Cityport Of Traps
Other round five:
41. Sorcery! 1 The Shamutanti Hills\Sorcery! 3 The Seven Serpents (Tie)
Round three two votes:
42. Temple Of Terror\Sword Of The Samurai\Legend Of The Shadow Warriors\Knights Of Doom\Stormslayer\Night Of The Necromancer (Tie)
Round three one vote:
43. Howl Of The Werewolf\House Of Hell\Vault Of The Vampire\Secrets Of Salamonis (Tie)
Round three no votes:
44. Talisman Of Death\Sorcery! 4 Crown Of Kings (Tie)
Round two 1 vote:
45. Beneath Nightmare Castle\Dead Of Night (Tie)
Round two no votes:
46. Deathtrap Dungeon\Moonrunner (Tie)
Round one no votes:
47. Demons Of The Deep\Siege Of Sardath\Creature Of Havoc\City Of Thieves (Tie)
& Round one one vote, but not taken through like others who got one vote and given an honorary rank of bottom thirty least-favourite:
Slaves Of The Abyss\Stealer Of Souls
This will do a disservice to those two as their true position is not just probably top half but definitely, but once again some apologies.
Perhaps we could poll on what number in the top thirty those two should rank (starting from Bloodbones)  ?
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