Lava Demon vs Lava Imp - Redux

[soulreaver]

Sylas and I recently had a PM discussion about one of the great controversies of our time: the 'proper' name for Lava Imps/Lava Demons.

To avoid confusion going forward, I'm going to refer to the specific type of creature in question as "Fire Imp Larvae".

The first mention of Fire Imp Larvae comes from "Crypt of the Sorcerer", specifically paragraph 115:

"As soon as you unbolt the door, it is pushed open by three disgusting creatures. Resembling giant flying slugs with no eyes, but with large gaping mouths and spiked teeth, the Lava Demons circle around you.  Suddenly they stop and hover above your head. They have no wings, and you wonder what keeps them in the air. Then you remember that Lava Demons metamorphose into Fire Imps just as caterpillars become butterflies. As the first Lava Imp swoops in to attack you, you suddenly laugh at yourself for thinking of butterflies at such and inappropriate moment"

And you end up fighting the First LAVA DEMON, Second LAVA DEMON and third LAVA DEMON.

You'll notice that this paragraph refers to the Fire Imp Larvae as both "Lava Demons" and "Lava Imps".

There was a thread about this before... somewhere... but unfortunately I can't find the old one. In it, it was unanimously decided that the 'proper' name should be "Lava Imp".
Titannica takes this position as well, stating that Fire Imps are "known as Lava Imps or mistakenly as Lava Demons in their larva form" and the caption under a picture of the creature states "Fire Imps in their immature Lava Imp form."

Beyond the Pit (unfortunately I don't have a copy of this) also refers to the Fire Imp Larvae as Lava Imps (there isn't any mention of them in the original 'Out of the Pit').

However, I'm going to play Devil's (or rather Demon's) advocate and state that calling the Fire Imp Larvae "Lava Imps" is incorrect, or at least that this was not the initial intention of the author that invented them, Ian Livinstone.

First, let's look at the primary source on this creature: "Crypt of the Sorcerer".

This is the ONLY single-player gamebook that mentions Fire Imp Larvae.  In it, this creature is called a "Lava Demon" no less than six times: five times when they are first introduced in paragraph 115, and then one more time after you defeat them in paragraph 309.

Only ONCE is the Fire Imp Larvae referred to as a Lava Imp.  I note that this happens immediately after a sentence mentioning Fire Imps, and in the same section that refers to the same creature as Lava Demons five times.

My take:

Based on this alone, I believe that "Lava Demon" is the correct term, as it gets used far more frequently (and in more than one place).  The only instance of "Lava Imp" was likely an error, with the word "Imp" still swimming around in Ian Livingstone's head when he wrote the sentence just after he explains how the Fire Imp Larvae turn into Fire Imps.

Secondly, let's look at another primary source of information: Titan - The Fighting Fantasy world, authored by Marc Gascoigne, Steve Jackson & Ian Livingstone (no other single-player or AFF books mention Fire Imp Larvae as far as I know):

Titan - The Fighting Fantasy World lists a 'Lava Demon' as a creature in the Hierarchy of the Pit.  They are classified as "Lesser Demons - Shock Troops and Slayers" and share this category with the likes of Nanka, Ice Demons, Hell Demons and Mirror Demons.  It does not tell us anything else about them, like stats or anything else.

My take:

I find it hard to believe that the Fire Imp Larvae are the same creature as the "Lava Demon" mentioned in Titan - they're certainly not on-par with the likes of Mirror Demons, Ice Demons etc.  Most likely the "Lava Demon" mentioned in Titan and the Fire Imp Larvae mentioned in Crypt of the Sorcerer are two entirely different creatures, based on the limited information we do have.  However, there is notably zero evidence that "Lava Imp" is the correct name to use for the Fire Imp Larvae - in fact, that name doesn't come up in the book anywhere at all.  I believe that the "Lava Demon" from this book has simply never been seen in any of the books, and just happens to share a name with the Fire Imp Larvae.  Most likely Ian Livingstone was not aware of the name conflict when he wrote Crypt of the Sorcerer (or didn't care).  Fighting Fantasy is written by a variety of authors and the canon is loose at best, so two different creatures sharing a name is possible (it might even have happened before, though I can't think of an instance offhand).

Thirdly, regarding 'Beyond the Pit' and 'Titannica':

Beyond the Pit and Titannica both assert that the correct name for Fire Imp Larvae is "Lava Imp"

My take:

I do not consider these primary sources.  Beyond the Pit was written by Andrew Wright years after Crypt of the Sorcerer was published, and Titannica is a fan-written wiki.  In both cases, I see them as fan-created material at best, not reliable sources.  As such, they should not be taken into consideration when determining Ian Livingstone's initial intention.

Last, let's consider the words themselves:

My take:

1. When you think of an 'imp' in a fantasy context, it usually brings to mind a small, devil-like humanoid, often with bat wings.  This isn't too far off from how a Fighting Fantasy "Fire Imp" is portrayed: a small, vaguely human-faced, bat-winged flying monster (that breathes fire).  However, the Fire Imp Larvae look nothing like that - they are not humanoid and have no wings at all.  Imp is a poor descriptor.

Demon is a broader term, with a wider range of forms, from large to small, from animal to humanoid.  As such, it makes a much better descriptor for the Fire Imp Larvae, who lack humanoid features.

2. In English, creatures that undergo metamorphosis typically have a completely different name in their larval form (unless called just 'larvae'): Caterpillar turns into Butterfly, Maggot turns into Fly, etc.  They are not called Catterfly and Butterfly.  Lava Demon -> Fire Imp follows this format more closely than Lava Imp -> Fire Imp.

3. Changing from Lava Imp to Fire Imp simply sounds like a 'downgrade', seeing as Lava is usually nastier than fire.  Changing from Lava Demon to Fire Imp sounds like a complete change from one thing to a totally different thing, which again is more verbally descriptive of what happens.

My own conclusion:

Ian Livingstone meant for the Fire Imp Larvae to be called Lava Demons, and just made a mistake that one time while typing up paragraph 115 in Crypt of the Sorcerer - there is no other actual primary evidence to the contrary that that specific creature has any other name.

So, what's your take?

[CharlesX]

You could well conclude Ian Livingstone made a single error calling Lava Imp Fire Imp, or alternatively that Ian Livingstone just 'felt like' using different words, or that it in some way reflects their place of origin as well as their age and sub-species. As you say the FF universe is a generic one so swapping the names around doesn't seem unfair either.

   The balance of evidence is that a single use of a different wording would suggest a mistake, imo, or if not some weird Livingstonian logic few other people would share. By the way, while I get why you might not recognise Titanicca as a source, I personally would dispute why you shouldn't recognise the official Out Of The Pit series - i don't see why the time elapsed since the original book should be a factor, and it seems as canonical as anything else published in FF that is not by J&L, such as The Zagor Chronicles, which by the sounds of it, you don't recognize either?

[soulreaver]

May 8, 2023 10:42:37 GMT CharlesX said:

You could well conclude Ian Livingstone made a single error calling Lava Imp Fire Imp, or alternatively that Ian Livingstone just 'felt like' using different words, or that it in some way reflects their place of origin as well as their age and sub-species. As you say the FF universe is a generic one so swapping the names around doesn't seem unfair either.

   The balance of evidence is that a single use of a different wording would suggest a mistake, imo, or if not some weird Livingstonian logic few other people would share. By the way, while I get why you might not recognise Titanicca as a source, I personally would dispute why you shouldn't recognise the official Out Of The Pit series - i don't see why the time elapsed since the original book should be a factor, and it seems as canonical as anything else published in FF that is not by J&L, such as The Zagor Chronicles, which by the sounds of it, you don't recognize either?

Regarding what I 'recognize', maybe that's the wrong term to use.  I'm more thinking about which sources would be the most likely to reflect Ian Livingstone's actual thoughts/intentions for the creature - those are what I consider 'primary' sources.  Ian Livingstone is the author who appears to have invented Fire Imp Larvae to begin with, so if something contradicts what he wrote we have to ask ourselves how reliable that source is.

I do recognize the original 'Out of the Pit' as relevant as Ian Livingstone was credited as one of the authors and it was published around the same time, but it has nothing to say about Fire Imps or Lava Demons/Lava Imps.  I also recognize 'Titan' for the same reason.

'Beyond the Pit' however did not have any author involvement from Ian Livingstone and was published about 27 years later.  Maybe Andrew Wright did some deep and careful research with Ian Livingstone (who also somehow remembered exactly what he intended for this creature he invented and included in one book 27 years earlier), but I have my doubts about that.

[andrewwright]

Interesting topic! :-)

My take, looking back at all the stuff I wrote, where I sourced it from, and trying to make sense of the mess:

Fire Imp: Iconic monster from City of Thieves (and also Trial of Champions, Armies of Death and Knights of Doom) but for some reason never described in Out of the Pit (except for a brief mention on p.34 (large version of OOTP) where it is described as being from the Magical/Elemental Plane of Fire, and thus is a Magical Creature and not a Demon for creature Type). I finally described it in Beyond the Pit.

Lava Demon (Crypt of the Sorcerer): I used the (possible) mistaken name of Lava Imp from COTS, to downgrade it to a Lava Imp (based on its stats), and, in line with COTS, make it the larval version of a Fire Imp, meaning it too is a Magical Creature and not a Demon, in Beyond the Pit.

Lava Demon (Titan): Tertius tier level Lesser Demon from Titan's Hierarchy of the Pit. I detailed this powerful Demon in Rough Guide to the Pit (along with other 'Hierarchy' Demons, such as the Rust Demon, Iron Demon, Greater Fire Demon, Plague Demon, Lightning Demon, Slime Demon, Storm Demon, and Sand Demon, as well as two new forms: Greater Shadow Demons (Lesser Shadow Demons are in Return to the Pit) and Acid Demons).

Any other business: The Fire Imp that transforms into a (Lesser) Fire Demon in TOC is due to a spell devised by the Trialmaster Lexus, and not any innate feature or evidence of links between Fire Imps and Fire Demons.

A note on canon: What is or is not canon is completely up to you, and I usually say something at the start of my AFF books that you can use them in any way you want. However, I'd point out that all AFF 2E product carries official Fighting Fantasy and Advanced Fighting Fantasy logos on the cover, the product contents are vetted behind the scenes by Fighting Fantasy adjacent consultants, and we have to pay not-insignificant licensing fees to Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone to publish this material. So while, yes I am a FF fan, and my books are to some extent fan extrapolations of Fighting Fantasy and Titan, they are also to some extent official FF canon as well.

[soulreaver]

May 8, 2023 17:48:47 GMT andrewwright said:

Interesting topic! :-)

My take, looking back at all the stuff I wrote, where I sourced it from, and trying to make sense of the mess:

Fire Imp: Iconic monster from City of Thieves (and also Trial of Champions, Armies of Death and Knights of Doom) but for some reason never described in Out of the Pit (except for a brief mention on p.34 (large version of OOTP) where it is described as being from the Magical/Elemental Plane of Fire, and thus is a Magical Creature and not a Demon for creature Type). I finally described it in Beyond the Pit.

Lava Demon (Crypt of the Sorcerer): I used the (possible) mistaken name of Lava Imp from COTS, to downgrade it to a Lava Imp (based on its stats), and, in line with COTS, make it the larval version of a Fire Imp, meaning it too is a Magical Creature and not a Demon, in Beyond the Pit.

Lava Demon (Titan): Tertius tier level Lesser Demon from Titan's Hierarchy of the Pit. I detailed this powerful Demon in Rough Guide to the Pit (along with other 'Hierarchy' Demons, such as the Rust Demon, Iron Demon, Greater Fire Demon, Plague Demon, Lightning Demon, Slime Demon, Storm Demon, and Sand Demon, as well as two new forms: Greater Shadow Demons (Lesser Shadow Demons are in Return to the Pit) and Acid Demons).

Any other business: The Fire Imp that transforms into a (Lesser) Fire Demon in TOC is due to a spell devised by the Trialmaster Lexus, and not any innate feature or evidence of links between Fire Imps and Fire Demons.

A note on canon: What is or is not canon is completely up to you, and I usually say something at the start of my AFF books that you can use them in any way you want. However, I'd point out that all AFF 2E product carries official Fighting Fantasy and Advanced Fighting Fantasy logos on the cover, the product contents are vetted behind the scenes by Fighting Fantasy adjacent consultants, and we have to pay not-insignificant licensing fees to Steve Jackson and Ian Livingstone to publish this material. So while, yes I am a FF fan, and my books are to some extent fan extrapolations of Fighting Fantasy and Titan, they are also to some extent official FF canon as well.

Awesome, I'm glad I get to ask you directly!

Regarding canon: canon or not, the main purpose here is to establish what Ian Livingstone wanted to call this monster when he invented it.  This creature had not been mentioned in any of the gamebooks up to Crypt of the Sorcerer so this is the source of what we know about them.

It sounds like your decision to call them 'Lava Imps' was due to 'Fire Imps' being classified as Magical Creatures (rather than Demons) in one version of Out of the Pit.

However, the 'Demon Bat' is also a Magical Creature from the Magical Plane of Fire (not a Demon) yet has Demon in its name, so I don't think this is a good enough reason on its own.

How would you account for Ian Livingstone calling the Fire Imp Larvae a "Lava Demon" no less than six times (in two different places), if that isn't what he meant for them to be called?  Lava Imp is mentioned only once and in direct contradiction to five other mentions of them as Lava Demons in the same paragraph.

[philsadler]

Just high-jacking this thread for a moment to ask if there's any chance of a new 'Pit' book any time soon?

[andrewwright]

May 8, 2023 20:39:12 GMT soulreaver said:

How would you account for Ian Livingstone calling the Fire Imp Larvae a "Lava Demon" no less than six times (in two different places), if that isn't what he meant for them to be called?  Lava Imp is mentioned only once and in direct contradiction to five other mentions of them as Lava Demons in the same paragraph.

Yep, it's totally an error on Ian Livingstone's part to call them a Lava Imp just the once, but when doing the monster books, it allowed me to reskin them as a Lava Imp and save Lava Demon as a handle for a far more powerful creature in Rough Guide to the Pit, as befits its status in the Hierarchy of the Pit diagram in the original Titan book (which also predates Crypt of the Sorcerer, just).

[andrewwright]

May 17, 2023 19:51:55 GMT philsadler said:

just highjacking this thread for a mo to ask if there's any chance of a new 'Pit' book any time soon?

Haha, I've started working on a rough structure, as there are certainly enough monsters for one final Pit book. I go on sabbatical in 4 weeks after 28 years teaching, and plan to take at least 2 years off to write AFF material full time, including the next Pit book. No promises, but hopefully it may be sooner rather than later. :-)