How many entries do YOU want in a good FF book?

[misomiso]

Just posting in response to the recent post about playing books of UNDER 400 entries. 

I personally would like around 540 I think - something a bit meatier to get my teeth into but not so that it gets too long! 

[a moderator]

As many as are needed. Which will vary depending on the adventure.

What next, a poll on how many nouns are required for the ideal FF book? How many words not containing the letter 'e'? How many opponents with an even-numbered Stamina score?

[sylas]

Aug 14, 2023 21:00:50 GMT a moderator said:

As many as are needed. Which will vary depending on the adventure.

What next, a poll on how many nouns are required for the ideal FF book? How many words not containing the letter 'e'? How many opponents with an even-numbered Stamina score?

I believe he's asking for our personal preference. I see nothing wrong with that.

[CharlesX]

No one so far has voted above 400 or below 400, even the OP hasn't bothered to do so after several hours, which is a surprise because he feels strongly enough to set up his own thread.

   Yes, some of the best FF have more than 400, and the Sorcery! are some of my favourites, but some, no, the majority, of my favourites, are 400 references. It's also heavy pressure on most FF authors, so what I say is stick with 400.

  

  

[schlendrian]

To supplement this, I feel inclined to link to a thread started by my own humble self, which discussed basically the same topic and basically came to the same conclusion.

Optimal-Gamebook-length

[King Gillibran]

I voted 1000 Just because I would love an epic adventure of that length. Jonathan Green or Steve Jackson would be my first picks. Or both. You could make a very interactive book with Secrets of Salamonis quest style and as much space as you need. Not saying I would want all books to be this long and most are fine at 400, but I would love one with this many paragraphs. Just so long as it wasnt like Charlie Higsons book.

[tyrion]

Steve Jackson only managed 400 entries twice (nor counting firetop mountain), one of which included a bizarre torture game show which no doubt padded it out, so I can't see 400 being the gold standard.

However, 400 is a nice round number, has historical precedent and at this length is manageable in a couple of evenings. In contrast, I've been playing fabled lands 7 with 1200 entries for about two weeks and so far all I've managed to do is tell a lady's friends that she is happy, have one fight and refurbish a run down cottage.

[CharlesX]

Aug 15, 2023 9:07:29 GMT King Gillibran said:

I voted 1000 Just because I would love an epic adventure of that length. Jonathan Green or Steve Jackson would be my first picks. Or both. You could make a very interactive book with Secrets of Salamonis quest style and as much space as you need. Not saying I would want all books to be this long and most are fine at 400, but I would love one with this many paragraphs. Just so long as it wasnt like Charlie Higsons book.

I think the difference between my poll and this is whether you would effectively abort gamebooks that are noticeably under 400, or whether you would want you favourite gamebooks to be really long (they're separate questions). And a really long gamebook might be as good as Creature Of Havoc or as bad as Gates Of Death. There's completely a case for having a very long gamebook that is amazing, but Sorcery! has a lot of errors and Secrets Of Salamonis also has quite a few, unfortunately (as does say Night Of The Necromancer, with the Ironheart bug). Ultimately the author has to decide if he can tell his tale in about 400 references or if he would rather have more, and Green doesn't waste references (Jackson's Sorcery! does with failed spell choices, but that was a long time ago).
   As I've said before personally I'd be just as happy if a good FF has 380, 400, 500, 800 references, whatever. And as we've all said unfortunately the dream scenario of the next Howl or Night could just as easily be the next Gates or Eye.  

[trialmaster]

Aug 15, 2023 9:07:29 GMT King Gillibran said:

I voted 1000 Just because I would love an epic adventure of that length. Jonathan Green or Steve Jackson would be my first picks. Or both. You could make a very interactive book with Secrets of Salamonis quest style and as much space as you need. Not saying I would want all books to be this long and most are fine at 400, but I would love one with this many paragraphs. Just so long as it wasnt like Charlie Higsons book.

[trialmaster]

If you want a gamebook with 1000 references by Jonathan Green then look no further than his own Dracula gamebook which he published a couple of years ago. You can play as a number of different characters, including Dracula himself.

[nathanh]

My favourite FFs are the more epic ones and these tend to feel mildly constrained by 400 references, but not too constrained, so I went with 440-480.

[misomiso]

Aug 15, 2023 6:59:59 GMT CharlesX said:

No one so far has voted above 400 or below 400, even the OP hasn't bothered to do so after several hours, which is a surprise because he feels strongly enough to set up his own thread.

   Yes, some of the best FF have more than 400, and the Sorcery! are some of my favourites, but some, no, the majority, of my favourites, are 400 references. It's also heavy pressure on most FF authors, so what I say is stick with 400.

  

  

Apologies set up the post then had to rush out to dentist!  Very painful!

I would prefer something around 540 I think; there is a real art to making a good gamebook in only 400 entries, but now I find them just a tad short.  For example I think Shadow of the Giants could have done with a few more entries, say 440, and that would have filled some parts of the story a bit more. 

But also I would love a 1000 entry epic with multiple parts etc.  !

[paperexplorer]

I'm not sure number of references is really what defines whether a book could be better or not.

Maybe a longer adventure might be fun, but some books are a slog already. Would you really want a longer Island of the Undead? Or a book with ne true path give 100 extra references to make it that much harder to find the true path?

I think they did right in FF in setting a benchmark reference count and making the author do the best job within that framework.

[Pete Byrdie]

I think in terms of story length and exploration options, 400 entries is about right. If a book is longer than that, I'd rather the extra entries be used to flesh out locations and encounters with more options.

[misomiso]

The pacing definately has a big effect on how long the story feels.

Something like Deathtrap Dungeon is a perfect length for 400 entries, but then it is a very linear adventure with not much branching paths.

On the other hand even though Creature of Havoc is 460 entries I find it quite short after the Dungeon sequence; both the cross country part and the finale on the Boat could be a bit longer.

[Pete Byrdie]

Aug 20, 2023 16:16:02 GMT misomiso said:

The pacing definately has a big effect on how long the story feels.

Something like Deathtrap Dungeon is a perfect length for 400 entries, but then it is a very linear adventure with not much branching paths.

On the other hand even though Creature of Havoc is 460 entries I find it quite short after the Dungeon sequence; both the cross country part and the finale on the Boat could be a bit longer.

Well, it seems to me having more entries could flesh out some of those areas in Creature of Havoc.

It seems to me that a gamebook is a book the size of a novel that tells a story the size of a short story, because large sections are missed out in any given playthrough. One way around that is to make a more linear adventure, with paths that loop back to a main path. That makes a playthrough feel like a slog while still giving the illusion of a multicursal adventure, until you map it, or realise you always end up in the same spots. Truly branching adventures, once mapped and a good path found, can seem shockingly short on a winning playthrough. Add 100-150 extra entries, and you can have it both ways.

[misomiso]

Aug 20, 2023 16:36:55 GMT Pete Byrdie said:

Aug 20, 2023 16:16:02 GMT misomiso said:

The pacing definately has a big effect on how long the story feels.

Something like Deathtrap Dungeon is a perfect length for 400 entries, but then it is a very linear adventure with not much branching paths.

On the other hand even though Creature of Havoc is 460 entries I find it quite short after the Dungeon sequence; both the cross country part and the finale on the Boat could be a bit longer.

Well, it seems to me having more entries could flesh out some of those areas in Creature of Havoc.

It seems to me that a gamebook is a book the size of a novel that tells a story the size of a short story, because large sections are missed out in any given playthrough. One way around that is to make a more linear adventure, with paths that loop back to a main path. That makes a playthrough feel like a slog while still giving the illusion of a multicursal adventure, until you map it, or realise you always end up in the same spots. Truly branching adventures, once mapped and a good path found, can seem shockingly short on a winning playthrough. Add 100-150 extra entries, and you can have it both ways.

It depends on the style of gamebook.  A lot of gamebooks are actually incredibly linear, much more linear than the general public really appreciate, but then there are some that are some gamebooks like Starship Traveller that can be  completed in around 40 entries with lots of content that you may never see. 

[scouserob]

I wouldn't say Deathtrap Dungeon was linear.
Especially compared to Livingstone's next two releases, Island of the Lizard King and Caverns of the Snow Witch, which seem to have a longer adventure due to less alternative substantial paths.

Deathtrap Dungeon's basic structure is something like:
3 Branches up to the Idol.
Linear through idol, column of light, water trap and dagger room.
Then 2 Branches (Though 1 is a reasonably short dead end so probably doesn't count).
Correct branch splits in two after the Goblins, and reunites at Throm.
Then linear until after the Trialmaster.
Then 4(!) branches to get to the Bloodbeast.
Then linear all the way to the end.

[a moderator]

Aug 20, 2023 18:36:02 GMT scouserob said:

I wouldn't say Deathtrap Dungeon was linear.
Especially compared to Livingstone's next two releases, Island of the Lizard King and Caverns of the Snow Witch, which seem to have a longer adventure due to less alternative substantial paths.

Deathtrap Dungeon's basic structure is something like:
3 Branches up to the Idol.
Linear through idol, column of light, water trap and dagger room.
Then 2 Branches (Though 1 is a reasonably short dead end so probably doesn't count).
Correct branch splits in two after the Goblins, and reunites at Throm.
Then linear until after the Trialmaster.
Then 4(!) branches to get to the Bloodbeast.
Then linear all the way to the end.

But unless you're playing to lose, many of the branches are non-viable, and the only meaningful choice of branches still has one path that's objectively better than the other two.

[adrius]

It depends on how content-packed each reference is too, I guess. Many of the earlier gamebooks featured shorter content across their references (and for TWOFM, the maze and treasure chest segments were incredibly brief), so one might argue that their effective content is much less than 400 references. Even for the Sorcery! series, a good chunk (some 25-35% of the later references) were all spellwork.

Personally I feel Creature of Havoc has it well, and Howl of the Werewolf is still at a comfortable length on the higher end, so I'd say 450-500 would be sweet. If there's a lot of short passages (mazes, reactionary spellwork etc) then it can go up a little further. Too long, and it might be better split into two or multiple adventures.

[CharlesX]

Aug 15, 2023 9:07:29 GMT King Gillibran said:

I voted 1000 Just because I would love an epic adventure of that length. Jonathan Green or Steve Jackson would be my first picks. Or both. You could make a very interactive book with Secrets of Salamonis quest style and as much space as you need. Not saying I would want all books to be this long and most are fine at 400, but I would love one with this many paragraphs. Just so long as it wasnt like Charlie Higsons book.

The OP has specified FF as opposed to gamebooks as a whole (I like longer gamebooks such as Fabled Lands). While maybe a 600, 750 reference FF might be doable, an FF as long as this possibly wouldn't work (imho) as something about FF format doesn't lend itself to longer adventures, and I don't see a new series like Sorcery! taking off that way. Fully prepared to be humiliated when Steve Jackson does both things though.

[misomiso]

Aug 20, 2023 22:50:38 GMT a moderator said:

Aug 20, 2023 18:36:02 GMT scouserob said:

I wouldn't say Deathtrap Dungeon was linear.
Especially compared to Livingstone's next two releases, Island of the Lizard King and Caverns of the Snow Witch, which seem to have a longer adventure due to less alternative substantial paths.

Deathtrap Dungeon's basic structure is something like:
3 Branches up to the Idol.
Linear through idol, column of light, water trap and dagger room.
Then 2 Branches (Though 1 is a reasonably short dead end so probably doesn't count).
Correct branch splits in two after the Goblins, and reunites at Throm.
Then linear until after the Trialmaster.
Then 4(!) branches to get to the Bloodbeast.
Then linear all the way to the end.

But unless you're playing to lose, many of the branches are non-viable, and the only meaningful choice of branches still has one path that's objectively better than the other two.

Yes DD has the beginning 3 way choice, then a long linear section up to the two goblin room which splits into two short paths, then another long linear section up to the Trialmaster, and then the end section there are multiple (At least 5) paths to the end. 

So you do have quite a few multiple sections, but apart from the end they are quite short, and the linear sections are very long and take up a lot of the book I feel.  Even the end multiple section has quite a few paths that are very quick. 

Fantastic book though.

[misomiso]

Aug 21, 2023 11:35:20 GMT CharlesX said:

Aug 15, 2023 9:07:29 GMT King Gillibran said:

I voted 1000 Just because I would love an epic adventure of that length. Jonathan Green or Steve Jackson would be my first picks. Or both. You could make a very interactive book with Secrets of Salamonis quest style and as much space as you need. Not saying I would want all books to be this long and most are fine at 400, but I would love one with this many paragraphs. Just so long as it wasnt like Charlie Higsons book.

The OP has specified FF as opposed to gamebooks as a whole (I like longer gamebooks such as Fabled Lands). While maybe a 600, 750 reference FF might be doable, an FF as long as this possibly wouldn't work (imho) as something about FF format doesn't lend itself to longer adventures, and I don't see a new series like Sorcery! taking off that way. Fully prepared to be humiliated when Steve Jackson does both things though.

The way I would think about it is too split the gamebook into 'Acts' - so Act I would be 300 sections, Ac II would be 400 sections, and Act III would be 300 sections, and each section would be self contained so in some ways you would be looking at three books in one. 

I've found some of the longer gamebooks can be quite overwhelming with the amount of sections you have to flick through the whole time.