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Post by misomiso on Aug 27, 2023 10:02:25 GMT
Before J Green wrote Howl of The Werewolf apparently he canvassed opinions on the forums as to what the readership wanted from a FF book.
Since it is likely that IL at least will write some kind of Deathtrap Dungeon themed book for the 40th anniversay next year, I wondered what people here would request for the next IL or SJ gamebook, both in terms of content and in terms of gameplay.
Secrets of Salamonis and Shadow of the Giants were huge step forwards compared to other recent releases, and it would be good to see the series continue to advance!
So what would you like to see in their next gamebooks?
For me it would be something like: -Longer books (480-520 entries)
-The Deathtrap Dungeon book using a twist on the original Dungeon layout, at least for the first part -Perhaps Sorcery V from Mr Jackson? (No Amomour system though this time please!)
-Playtesting again.
Ty for any thoughts.
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Post by hallucination on Aug 27, 2023 10:28:27 GMT
Oh, well, for a DD-themed one, how about: YOU are an adventurer, a sword for hire, now roaming Allansia having been commissioned by the Baron of Fang to recruit (or otherwise 'persuade'!) all manner of monsters, puzzlemasters, and general servants for the inaugural contest. But there's a catch... having heard of the Baron's plans, and jealous of such a contest's potential for bringing fame and honour to Fang, the Baron's brother has dispatched a handful of assassins to put paid to your recruitment attempts...
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 27, 2023 10:48:50 GMT
In spite of playtesting both adventures had a number of errors, so getting ride of those would be a plus. Anyway:
IL -Magic spells\special skills. A boss you can defeat more than one way, maybe via fighting. Fewer instant deaths, more fighting (I personally felt, and I don't think I'm alone, there were too much talking and not enough adventure in Shadow Of The Giants). SJ - Wouldn't mind if he continued the Amonour system, or gave adventurers fixed or tight stats. Jackson writes extremely well but can be a bit linear, so I might like him to do a more forgiving work like Shamutanti Hills (perhaps as one of two-part Sorcery!).
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679 
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 27, 2023 11:05:48 GMT
I'd like a Citadel of Chaos sequel with Lucretia Dire being the main antagonist using cunnelwort to summon the Sorq spirits on to Allansia while secretly trying to resurrect Balthus Dire.
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Post by misomiso on Aug 27, 2023 15:22:52 GMT
In spite of playtesting both adventures had a number of errors, so getting ride of those would be a plus. Anyway:
IL -Magic spells\special skills. A boss you can defeat more than one way, maybe via fighting. Fewer instant deaths, more fighting (I personally felt, and I don't think I'm alone, there were too much talking and not enough adventure in Shadow Of The Giants). SJ - Wouldn't mind if he continued the Amonour system, or gave adventurers fixed or tight stats. Jackson writes extremely well but can be a bit linear, so I might like him to do a more forgiving work like Shamutanti Hills (perhaps as one of two-part Sorcery!).
I really like the idea of a book in two parts - so maybe Sorcery V is one book but in two parts of 300 Entries each (Separate).
The first could be very forgiving and a nice walk like in Shamunatati hills, but the 2nd could be very difficult like House of Hell!
Would rather he used the Citadel of Chaos Magic system though.
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 27, 2023 16:51:04 GMT
Oh, well, for a DD-themed one, how about: YOU are an adventurer, a sword for hire, now roaming Allansia having been commissioned by the Baron of Fang to recruit (or otherwise 'persuade'!) all manner of monsters, puzzlemasters, and general servants for the inaugural contest. But there's a catch... having heard of the Baron's plans, and jealous of such a contest's potential for bringing fame and honour to Fang, the Baron's brother has dispatched a handful of assassins to put paid to your recruitment attempts... Don't think that'd be a patch on Green writing Thief of Fang, though. In fairness, I very much doubt Livingstone's would be, even if he writes it better than I expect him to.
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Post by paperexplorer on Aug 28, 2023 12:33:37 GMT
I don't want sequels or re-hashed characters or self references, I'd prefer something new.
I don't want to be asked if I want to attack a shopkeeper, find fish hooks or enter a pie eating contest.
I don't want one long corridor if the story isn't strong.
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 28, 2023 12:43:38 GMT
I don't want sequels or re-hashed characters or self references, I'd prefer something new. I don't want to be asked if I want to attack a shopkeeper, find fish hooks or enter a pie eating contest. I don't want one long corridor if the story isn't strong. Or (attack) Yaztromo or Nicodemus\kindly healers. I feel it really cheapens an adventure to be asked if you want to attack a high-level wizard for no reason at all. |
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Post by Wilf on Aug 28, 2023 13:02:10 GMT
A thumping good story with a meaty climax, that has plenty of parallel paths and false trails, giving it lots of replay value. It should be winnable on minimum stats, maybe with a path that enables you to pick up items to bolster your chances. I would love to see a book with four possible paths, though - the other three being winnable if you have a high Skill, Stamina, or Luck. It must be well written, properly playtested, lacking in continuity errors, and I would love to see the old school artwork style retained - Tazio Bettin and Kev Crossley would be my first picks, if asked. No preference regarding genre or storylines.
Oh, and Zagor, Zanbar Bone, Lord Azzur, etc. have all been overused. Let's have an original antagonist, please.
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Post by linflas on Aug 28, 2023 14:55:48 GMT
I want "Return to Scorpion Swamp" where you play the hero's daughter, and you have three quests to complete. Oh wait..
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Post by pip on Aug 28, 2023 15:29:32 GMT
Hire Iain McCaig for the artwork.
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Post by schlendrian on Aug 28, 2023 16:40:45 GMT
I don't want to be asked if I want to attack a shopkeeper, find fish hooks or enter a pie eating contest. Adding to that, I don't want to have to attack a shop- or bonekeeper in order to win. |
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Post by pip on Aug 28, 2023 17:12:21 GMT
More seriously (I know Iain McCaig is doing other things and is very unlikely to return), I agree with the "don't ask me if I want to enter a pie eating contest" sentiment. In IL and SJ's classic books, almost every choice seemed to matter, they made you feel like you may die at any moment if you picked the wrong option (even if it wasn't necessarily the case). Whenever you had to choose a reference to turn to, it usually seemed like you had a very, very important choice to make.
I did enjoy both Giants and Salamonis, but if I had to make a criticism that I think applies to both books, I would say they are too "laid back" for my taste. There are many references where you have to choose if you want to buy something, talk to someone, enter a pie eating contest (or such)... I miss the dread of the likes of Deathtrap Dungeon and House of Hell. Reading both of the new books, I did miss the "this is a very dangerous place, always choose carefully" vibe, so I would wish for them to bring that back.
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 29, 2023 10:03:25 GMT
This thread title's kind of reminded me what I already thought; more SJ & IL collaboration would be pretty amazing. An unlikely scenario though.
My understanding is Jackson's Secrets Of Salamonis benefited from some contribution by Green (or Green was under-credited, depending on truth). So, hopefully Livingstone could do something like that, too.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Aug 29, 2023 18:03:35 GMT
This thread title's kind of reminded me what I already thought; more SJ & IL collaboration would be pretty amazing. An unlikely scenario though. My understanding is Jackson's Secrets Of Salamonis benefited from some contribution by Green (or Green was under-credited, depending on truth). So, hopefully Livingstone could do something like that, too. Perhaps we will see a gamebook written by Jon Green but incorporating some of Steve Jackson's ideas that might not have been included when Secrets of Salamonis was being written for the sake of space. Concepts, themes and encounters that 'hit the cutting room floor' so to speak. That is probably the best we can hope for in this respect. An Ian Livingstone book, especially something like Deathtrap Dungeon 3 (which would play to his strengths as a gamebook writer) doesn't really need any collaboration - it just needs a playtester or two. The IL and SJ collaboration FF#1 was many things - one of them being a 'proof of concept' - and after that there was no need for them to work together on the books. In fact, half the book had to be rewritten before printing because the writing styles were so different. |
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Post by misomiso on Aug 29, 2023 18:45:02 GMT
This thread title's kind of reminded me what I already thought; more SJ & IL collaboration would be pretty amazing. An unlikely scenario though. My understanding is Jackson's Secrets Of Salamonis benefited from some contribution by Green (or Green was under-credited, depending on truth). So, hopefully Livingstone could do something like that, too. I don't think he was under credited - he's named as 'written with' in the title page and at FF4 Steve said the book could not have happened with J Green.
You can see the inlfuence - a lot of the mechanics from other JGreen books in there like the Day of the Week mechanic, but there is also a twist on others. The Amonour system is similar to Character Creation in some JGreen books, but in SoS one you have to earn points during play, and the 'hub system' is brilliant in that time progresseses as you play and certain events play out as you complete more quests.
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 29, 2023 19:00:27 GMT
This thread title's kind of reminded me what I already thought; more SJ & IL collaboration would be pretty amazing. An unlikely scenario though. My understanding is Jackson's Secrets Of Salamonis benefited from some contribution by Green (or Green was under-credited, depending on truth). So, hopefully Livingstone could do something like that, too. I don't think he was under credited - he's named as 'written with' in the title page and at FF4 Steve said the book could not have happened with J Green.
You can see the inlfuence - a lot of the mechanics from other JGreen books in there like the Day of the Week mechanic, but there is also a twist on others. The Amonour system is similar to Character Creation in some JGreen books, but in SoS one you have to earn points during play, and the 'hub system' is brilliant in that time progresseses as you play and certain events play out as you complete more quests.
Like I implied we may never know how much of the FF is owed to Jackson and how much is owed to Green. I guess if a majority of the FF (whatever that means) was written by Steve Jackson it's fair Green's name doesn't appear on the frontspiece (yes, he's credited as being written with). What I will say is it's a hell of a lot more fair than Legend Of Zagor which basically used Ian Livingstone's name to sell the book and never credited Keith Martin\Carl Sargent even though he did most of the work. I'm not particularly in the know about Legend Of Zagor so I'd welcome to be corrected but my understanding is LOZ owes quite a bit to Keith Martin yet he was not credited at the time.
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trialmaster
Wanderer
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Posts: 62
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Post by trialmaster on Aug 29, 2023 19:58:58 GMT
Having been at FFest4 and seen the talk presented by Jonathan Green with Steve Jackson, my impression was that Secrets of Salamonis was mainly written by Jon Green, incorporating some of SJ's ideas. There were a couple of reasons for this. One being that there were numerous JG tropes found in the text as discussed already, even down to the numerical structuring that was similar to JG's recent Ace gamebooks. Secondly the presentation was very much led by JG with SJ contributing sporadically.
With SJ's failing health, unfortunately I think it is highly unlikely we will see another gamebook written predominantly by him (although I would love to be proved wrong). It would be good though to see another one by JG in a similar vein to SOS, perhaps with some input from SJ.
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Post by pip on Aug 29, 2023 20:21:00 GMT
This thread title's kind of reminded me what I already thought; more SJ & IL collaboration would be pretty amazing. An unlikely scenario though. My understanding is Jackson's Secrets Of Salamonis benefited from some contribution by Green (or Green was under-credited, depending on truth). So, hopefully Livingstone could do something like that, too. I don't think he was under credited - he's named as 'written with' in the title page and at FF4 Steve said the book could not have happened with J Green.
You can see the inlfuence - a lot of the mechanics from other JGreen books in there like the Day of the Week mechanic, but there is also a twist on others. The Amonour system is similar to Character Creation in some JGreen books, but in SoS one you have to earn points during play, and the 'hub system' is brilliant in that time progresseses as you play and certain events play out as you complete more quests.
I'm not sure I get your point, you say Jon Green was not undercredited, yet from your post it seems like he wrote the bulk of the book, but only got a second hand credit. |
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Post by evilwizard on Aug 29, 2023 21:03:33 GMT
I'd like to see Steve Jackson (II) write another book in a similar style to his previous books, but harder
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Post by misomiso on Aug 30, 2023 6:58:20 GMT
Having been at FFest4 and seen the talk presented by Jonathan Green with Steve Jackson, my impression was that Secrets of Salamonis was mainly written by Jon Green, incorporating some of SJ's ideas. There were a couple of reasons for this. One being that there were numerous JG tropes found in the text as discussed already, even down to the numerical structuring that was similar to JG's recent Ace gamebooks. Secondly the presentation was very much led by JG with SJ contributing sporadically. With SJ's failing health, unfortunately I think it is highly unlikely we will see another gamebook written predominantly by him (although I would love to be proved wrong). It would be good though to see another one by JG in a similar vein to SOS, perhaps with some input from SJ.
It's definately difficult to say. SoS FEELS like a SJ book in that the core concept was very creative compared to other FF books, and the overall plot has a mystery and some slight twists (Cardinal Zim isn't the main villain, who the shivering man is), as well as some random elements like the talking dog.
I also felt the writing was of a very high quality, better than some of the Ace gamebooks. I"m not sure if this is because there was more care and proofreading taken with this book than others, but reading it was a very enjoyable experience.
I generally prefer simpler gamebooks in terms of mechanics, so if they did another it would be good to lose the Day of the Week mechanic and maybe modify the Amonour system a bit, but I would love to see another from the pair, as I still think SJ has that creative flair despite his health.
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Post by misomiso on Aug 30, 2023 7:03:08 GMT
I don't think he was under credited - he's named as 'written with' in the title page and at FF4 Steve said the book could not have happened with J Green.
You can see the inlfuence - a lot of the mechanics from other JGreen books in there like the Day of the Week mechanic, but there is also a twist on others. The Amonour system is similar to Character Creation in some JGreen books, but in SoS one you have to earn points during play, and the 'hub system' is brilliant in that time progresseses as you play and certain events play out as you complete more quests.
I'm not sure I get your point, you say Jon Green was not undercredited, yet from your post it seems like he wrote the bulk of the book, but only got a second hand credit. I guess it depends what you mean by undercredited. I though SJ was very generous and clear with his praise, saying the book wouldn't have happened without JGreen, and although you can see the mechanical influences, it seems very clear that the concept / idea / plot direction of the book was SJs.
But as you say maybe we will never know.
EDIT: I would say that of all the ideas in the book, the 'Quest Selection' part is by far and away the best and most innovative.
Hub systems have been used before in gamebooks, but I've never seen one with 'time Progressing' and little side quests that happen after a certain amount of times have passed. Also with some of JGreen's other books like Stormslayer and Oz you have a hub, but there often isn't a limit as to how many paths you can take so you end up taking all of them. In SoS part of the puzzle is working out which quests do and which order to do them in.
Not sure who this came from, perhaps a combination of both SJ and JG.
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Post by hallucination on Aug 31, 2023 12:32:45 GMT
it is likely that IL at least will write some kind of Deathtrap Dungeon themed book for the 40th anniversay next year Just noticed that an as-yet-untitled FF book by IL with a 2024 publication date has been added to the list-of-FF Wikipedia page… but perhaps this is old news? Of course, ‘citation needed’ lol |
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Post by King Gillibran on Aug 31, 2023 13:13:38 GMT
Yeah I have been seeing that for a while.
I really hope it comes true!
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Post by CharlesX on Sept 2, 2023 12:34:54 GMT
This is a number of suggested Deathtrap Dungeon sequel titles:
Thief Of Fang
Deathtrap Dungeon 2
Second Deathtrap Dungeon (Where Deathtrap Dungeon is a lot bigger and more dangerous, taking up many more references - this is where I might not mind it being a sequel)
Azzur's Victim (You are falsely sentenced to the Dungeon together with the real criminal, during the adventure you have to pick up enough evidence to prove your innocence to Lord Azzur)
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Post by nathanh on Sept 2, 2023 14:46:52 GMT
For a new IL book I would request that the scope/setting be more restricted than most of his post-Deathtrap work. I liked Shadow of the Giants a lot, but it does go through so many environments that, with Livingstone's adventure style, there isn't enough space for enough fleshed-out branches. I guess you could instead add more references.
For SJ I think I'd just request a less strict route than usual. His books often feel like they are quite open but the winning path is quite narrow. Or you could have a narrower path to ultimate victory, but a wider path to a reasonable end (e.g. in SoS you could have had more leniency in route but to get the best ending you need enough Amonour and there isn't much scope to deviate from the optimal path for this).
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Post by a moderator on Sept 2, 2023 16:06:45 GMT
Copying my message from my suggested Deathtrap Dungeon sequel title thread as that doesn't seem to have a tidal wave of interest: It's a bit early to be complaining about lack of interest, given that you only posted the thread a few hours ago. And, by the look of things, posted this less than an hour afterwards. What sort of frenzied response were you hoping for? Additionally, I would suggest that if forum members show little to no interest in a topic you raise, you try accepting that they're not very interested in it rather than spamming other threads with the same material in an attempt at forcing discussion. |
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Post by CharlesX on Sept 2, 2023 17:12:35 GMT
Copying my message from my suggested Deathtrap Dungeon sequel title thread as that doesn't seem to have a tidal wave of interest: It's a bit early to be complaining about lack of interest, given that you only posted the thread a few hours ago. And, by the look of things, posted this less than an hour afterwards. What sort of frenzied response were you hoping for? Additionally, I would suggest that if forum members show little to no interest in a topic you raise, you try accepting that they're not very interested in it rather than spamming other threads with the same material in an attempt at forcing discussion. I'm sorry if copying material came across as spamming, because I truthfully thought the material I was stating was at least as relevant in this thread (the distinction being I was mentioning my own ideas for Deathtrap Dungeon names rather than starting a discussion about some). "As that doesn't seem to have a tidal wave of interest" was intended as a passing and self-deprecatory remark, but it was a fairly careless one with regard to how long the thread had been up for (and my enthusiasm, as you point out).
If there had been no responses by maybe tomorrow evening\a few days time I probably would have ended the other thread meaning that message - but kept my own remarks here, because there's always a distinction between a message you might want want to send and a number of messages you might hope to get in replies in a discussion\interest in a thread. I have also partly edited my message as I probably should have done that - would you rather it was deleted entirely (if not, does that mean that actually effectively copying is acceptable sometimes)? I thought my message was very relevant here based on the opening in this misimo's thread:
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Post by a moderator on Sept 2, 2023 23:21:16 GMT
I'm not going to say that cross-posting is never appropriate, but on this occasion it definitely came across as attention-seeking.
As for its relevance here, I guess it's appropriate IF a sequel to Deathtrap Dungeon is what you want most from Ian Livingstone and you care more about the title than the content of the book.
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Post by slloyd14 on Sept 3, 2023 15:48:20 GMT
As far as Ian Livingstone's books are concerned, I've grown to like his formula (probably from a sense of nostalgia). It's not spectacular game design, but the hoarder in my loves collecting random items and shopping and there is tension in wondering whether the person selling you a loaf of bread is going to sell it to you or turn out to be a zombie assassin or something (a seemingly common problem in North West Titan. And you thought the service in your local supermarket was bad).
I especially like Shadow of the Giants because, thanks to some playtesting, it wasn't impossible. The only other think is that I think Ian could afford to branch out from NW Allansia and introduce a few more characters and areas rather than try to make everything more interlinked than the cast of the Star Wars films, but it's something I can live with.
For Steve Jackson, it's harder to make a request. Steve Jackson liked to experiment with new stuff, so he has less of a style to pin down. I guess what he could do is take all the best bits from what he's done (Spells, deep background, epic stories, lots to explore, a sense of tension) and leave the stuff that didn't work well (rolling up loads of characters and never using them, anticlimax bosses) and try to make something that just contains all the best of SJ.
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