Hopes for FF in 2024 and beyond

[trialmaster]

As 2023 draws to a close in what was a quiet year for FF, I thought I would start a discussion to explore what we know will be coming in 2024 and then open up a discussion as to what people's hopes would be for new offerings in 2024 and beyond?

Known publications:

You Are The Hero history of FF - Interactive edition by Jon Green. This is a funded Kickstarter project, initially expected in 2023 but delayed until sometime in 2024;

Magic Realms - The Art of Fighting Fantasy by Jon Green and Ian Livingstone funded through Unbound;

The Fighting Fantasy Card Game - funded on Gamefound;

Rebel Planet comic book written by Mark Lain funded on Kickstarter.

If there are any other known FF works scheduled to be published in 2024, it would be good to know?

Hopes for 2024 and beyond:

I am always excited for a new FF gamebook so will start the discussion around these.

With FF Fest 5 coming later in 2024 and it being the 40th anniversary of Deathtrap Dungeon, I am hopeful (and fairly certain) we will see another gamebook from Ian Livingstone that will likely have strong links to DD.

What I am less certain of unfortunately is that we will see another from Steve Jackson due to his failing health. I think the only chance is if he is assisted again by Jon Green.

I would love to see other authors involved who have written FF in the past e.g. Stephen Hand, Kevin P. Phillips, Robin Waterfield, Paul Mason as well as Jon Green, but I think the chances of that are extremely slim as gamebooks are now such a niche market and many of these past writers would not be asked or will have moved on to other things (or retired!).

[slloyd14]

I'd like to see those too.

Stephen Hand swore off Fighting Fantasy ages ago, unfortunately. His books were awesome.

I would like to see some amateur FF books tidied up and prepared for publication (and not just because I wrote some), but I think the chances of that are slim.

[scouserob]

Dec 29, 2023 11:45:49 GMT trialmaster said:

Known publications:

You Are The Hero history of FF - Interactive edition by Jon Green. This is a funded Kickstarter project, initially expected in 2023 but delayed until sometime in 2024;

Magic Realms - The Art of Fighting Fantasy by Jon Green and Ian Livingstone funded through Unbound;

I'm looking forward to these two arriving in the post, hopefully sometime this year, though I'm happy to wait until they are in a state Jonathan Green and Ian Livingstone are completely happy with.
(George R. R. Martin and the 12 and a half year, and counting, wait for Winds of Winter has taught me patience.)

After enjoying Secrets of Salamonis and Shadow of the Giants as much as I did, any new Fighting Fantasy will be snapped up very quickly.

As mentioned in the initial post, with it being the 40th Anniversary it would be fitting to return to Fang and base the book around Sukumvit's third iteration of Deathtrap Dungeon.
Though after having his first two cracked in consecutive years (after the initial 9 yearly attempts at the first one left it unconquered) it would probably be best to set this a few years into Deathtrap Dungeon 3's undefeated challenge, or the Trial of Champions' reputation may go the way of the Borg in Voyager.

[CharlesX]

It's interesting to me Jon Green has written an entire number of volumes of history of FF, and assisted with Secrets Of Salmonis, just recently and has written so many (very good) FF in the 2000s and 2010s, plus many more before that. So I definitely wouldn't rule out a solo one by him or at least another in which he assists Jackson or possibly Livingstone. My understanding is this whole thing is very prosaic in that FF writers pay terms were poor before the EOTD reboot and only worse these days, where others would offer more flexibility. Something with very different rules to FF such as Livingstone's Blood Of The Zombies would be rejected (not necessarily about quality) for being risky or by the author because they might as well go freelance where they will keep more royalties etc.

   My understanding re: Amateur gamebooks being published is a lot depends on complicated commercial reasons about who the market is how big the name is how well it fits in the FFverse what new things it brings to the franchise etc. which is one reason why seemingly below-average FF and other gamebooks are often given the go-ahead. In CYOA there was an amateur writing competition, the winner of which was published (Longhorn Territory) and was of more than comparable quality to other CYOA, but I very much don't see that happening in FF where the audience is teens rather than young kids.

[sylas]

I hope Jon Green's Puffin FF books get re-released (revised if possible). Jon should also write a new FF adventure and it should have his name on the cover.

[evilwizard]

As incredibly unlikely as it is to happen, I'd like them to start to reissue more books per year and include the Keith Martin books, and those of other authors, but with all the bugs properly fixed, and if the original art can't be included, get decent artists involved. They could do 2-3 sets of releases per year of 3-4 books per set from a mix of authors.

[sylas]

Dec 30, 2023 18:42:53 GMT evilwizard said:

As incredibly unlikely as it is to happen, I'd like them to start to reissue more books per year and include the Keith Martin books, and those of other authors, but with all the bugs properly fixed, and if the original art can't be included, get decent artists involved. They could do 2-3 sets of releases per year of 3-4 books per set from a mix of authors.

Don't know if I'm making this up but didn't Ian mention a while ago that if Legend of Zagor gets reissued, he'd have Keith Martin's name on it as a tribute to his passing? Granted if that were the case, this would be the only book of his to likely get reissued.

[kieran]

Dec 30, 2023 21:53:29 GMT sylas said:

Don't know if I'm making this up but didn't Ian mention a while ago that if Legend of Zagor gets reissued, he'd have Keith Martin's name on it as a tribute to his passing? Granted if that were the case, this would be the only book of his to likely get reissued.

Yes, he said that in You Are the Hero.

[adrius]

How about getting more titles out on the Fighting Fantasy Classics app?

Personally I'd be interested to see translations being digitally published too, it's a shame that Tin Man Games doesn't have the publishing rights for those. Maybe that might change in time to come.

[CharlesX]

Dec 31, 2023 8:18:43 GMT adrius said:

How about getting more titles out on the Fighting Fantasy Classics app?

Personally I'd be interested to see translations being digitally published too, it's a shame that Tin Man Games doesn't have the publishing rights for those. Maybe that might change in time to come.

There would be a number of advantages to doing that, there could be difficulty modes for FF that are too hard and too easy, changes in gameplay, music, different artwork. I've no idea if errors would be corrected or if they have been before, but my sense is, aside from the muddy if fundamental issue of license rights, the future of reprints lies in e-format rather than paperbacks, which is only helped by the latter's cheap-quality paper.

[CharlesX]

I'm probably far from the only one who wishes there were more FF gamebooks and other new material rather than these histories about former FF. Anyway, quoting from interview about the next volume of You Are The Hero:

There are also two audio-visual projects being worked on, but more news about that in due course. 2024 is the 40th anniversary of Deathtrap Dungeon, and I’m hoping to have a new gamebook out in time for Fighting Fantasy Fest 5."

Jackson is equally keen to keep the legend alive, although he admits that the passage of time does alarm him. "Last time I speculated about new books was 1989, and the book was The Trolltooth Wars: A Fighting Fantasy Novel. At my age, I’m supposed to retire! But if a good idea pops up…"

www.timeextension.com/features/the-making-of-fighting-fantasy-the-million-selling-gamebook-series

So what are these mysterious two audio-visual projects? I don't know about Jackson's health but it sounds like he's as keen as his fans are.

[paperexplorer]

If there is a new Deathtrap Dungeon book, I just hope it isn't as easy and straightforward as Ian's recent efforts.

I selfishly hope that Howl of the Werewolf gets a reprint so I can get a copy. Maybe it could be reprinted with a few others under an "FF Classics" moniker to give it and the other titles a boost

Authors outside of Steve and Ian need to be introduced. I think the series would lose steam (if it has any) with long gaps between releases. But no more Charlie Higson messes

[kieran]

If we get new books, I hope they actually have some mutually exclusive paths to explore rather than these 'see it all in a single playthrough' books that have been dominating of late.

[kieran]

Jan 1, 2024 23:55:32 GMT paperexplorer said:

 But no more Charlie Higson messes

I'd give him another chance IF he was happy to take feedback on board. Gates of Death had its moments.

[alziel]

I'd love to see new FF Titles in 2024, for sure - and yes, a Deathtrap Dungeon anniversary sequel would be nice.

I'd like to see more titles added to the FF Classics app, too - and to see that app updated so that there is an option to play in 'purist' mode (racking up a Skill score between 13 and 20 on a play-through just gets boring, and makes titles like Island of the Lizard King laughably easy!).

And yes, I would love to see older FF titles by other authors re-released too, especially the Keith Martin, Jonathan Green and Stephen Hand/Jim Bambra titles, although I'm guessing that this is really just wishful thinking for the latter.

I'd love to see Crypt of the Sorcerer re-released and revised/playtested to make it much fairer whilst still being a decent challenge. I do agree with Vags that it is a good book - it's just let down by it's insanely impossible gameplay.

[sylas]

Jan 2, 2024 16:29:33 GMT alziel said:

I'd love to see Crypt of the Sorcerer re-released and revised/playtested to make it much fairer whilst still being a decent challenge. I do agree with Vags that it is a good book - it's just let down by it's insanely impossible gameplay.

This already exists, though an unofficially revised version.

[alziel]

Jan 2, 2024 17:53:43 GMT sylas said:

Jan 2, 2024 16:29:33 GMT alziel said:

I'd love to see Crypt of the Sorcerer re-released and revised/playtested to make it much fairer whilst still being a decent challenge. I do agree with Vags that it is a good book - it's just let down by it's insanely impossible gameplay.

This already exists, though an unofficially revised version.

Colour me interested, sir! 

This is the revised version that you painstakingly worked on yourself, and that you refer to in the Crypt book discussion thread? Is there an online link by any chance? Or am I being incredibly lazy by not doing a proper search? 

[CharlesX]

Jan 2, 2024 19:46:49 GMT alziel said:

Jan 2, 2024 17:53:43 GMT sylas said:

This already exists, though an unofficially revised version.

Colour me interested, sir! 

This is the revised version that you painstakingly worked on yourself, and that you refer to in the Crypt book discussion thread? Is there an online link by any chance? Or am I being incredibly lazy by not doing a proper search? 

fightingfantazine.proboards.com/thread/826/crypt-sorcerer-revised-edition

[sylas]

For some reason the link keeps breaking but it is still available on Facebook.

If you message me your email I'll send you a PDF copy.

[alziel]

Jan 2, 2024 20:35:07 GMT sylas said:

For some reason the link keeps breaking but it is still available on Facebook.

If you message me your email I'll send you a PDF copy.

Done - message sent! Very greatly appreciated. 

[bloodbeasthandler]

Dec 29, 2023 11:49:56 GMT slloyd14 said:

Stephen Hand swore off Fighting Fantasy ages ago, unfortunately. His books were awesome.

Does that extend to not wanting to attend the Fighting Fantasy Fests as well?

[slloyd14]

Jan 3, 2024 17:15:07 GMT bloodbeasthandler said:

Dec 29, 2023 11:49:56 GMT slloyd14 said:

Stephen Hand swore off Fighting Fantasy ages ago, unfortunately. His books were awesome.

Does that extend to not wanting to attend the Fighting Fantasy Fests as well?

Yes, it extends to cutting all ties with Fighting Fantasy to the extent that, when I was asked to write something for Arion Games on a region of the Old World, I was told that I couldn't do ANY area that is mentioned in Stephen Hand books or any monsters from his books or use any artwork from his books.

[CharlesX]

Jan 4, 2024 12:12:03 GMT slloyd14 said:

Jan 3, 2024 17:15:07 GMT bloodbeasthandler said:

Does that extend to not wanting to attend the Fighting Fantasy Fests as well?

Yes, it extends to cutting all ties with Fighting Fantasy to the extent that, when I was asked to write something for Arion Games on a region of the Old World, I was told that I couldn't do ANY area that is mentioned in Stephen Hand books or any monsters from his books or use any artwork from his books.

That is slightly ironic as his standing in Fighting Fantasy is deservedly sky-high. I wonder why he feels that way - perhaps he is paranoid about being typecast.

[bloodbeasthandler]

Jan 4, 2024 12:21:00 GMT CharlesX said:

Jan 4, 2024 12:12:03 GMT slloyd14 said:

Yes, it extends to cutting all ties with Fighting Fantasy to the extent that, when I was asked to write something for Arion Games on a region of the Old World, I was told that I couldn't do ANY area that is mentioned in Stephen Hand books or any monsters from his books or use any artwork from his books.

That is slightly ironic as his standing in Fighting Fantasy is deservedly sky-high. I wonder why he feels that way - perhaps he is paranoid about being typecast.

I can only speculate. But Jonathan Green may well have found out when researching You Are the Hero. 
I doubt it is anything to do with typecasting because he has nothing to fear in that respect - he had long ago (the 1980's) got into designing boardgames like Chainsaw Warrior and Fury of Dracula. And then like some other gamebook writers became involved in the computer games industry - see The Legacy: Realm of Terror (co-written with Jim Bambra!) and was also involved in XCOM along with Mike Brunton (Google: Stephen Hand Microprose). And if goodreads is to be believed, he has turned his hand to other fiction - www.goodreads.com/author/show/7034.Stephen_Hand

My guess (and it is a pure guess) would be that he has forthrightly and vigorously defended his copyright, to the extent that he may have burned his bridges with people. 

Whatever the case, it is a pity that we will not see him at any of the conventions and nor will his corner of Titan be expanded upon. 

[Per]

Getting lowball offers for reprints which include loss of ownership may well provoke that kind of reaction.

[evilwizard]

Jan 1, 2024 23:55:32 GMT paperexplorer said:

Authors outside of Steve and Ian need to be introduced. I think the series would lose steam (if it has any) with long gaps between releases. But no more Charlie Higson messes

Its already lost a lot of steam thanks to the long delays between releases, fewer books being (re)issued each year, and the new releases being rubbish.

[CharlesX]

Jan 7, 2024 15:59:50 GMT evilwizard said:

Jan 1, 2024 23:55:32 GMT paperexplorer said:

Authors outside of Steve and Ian need to be introduced. I think the series would lose steam (if it has any) with long gaps between releases. But no more Charlie Higson messes

Its already lost a lot of steam thanks to the long delays between releases, fewer books being (re)issued each year, and the new releases being rubbish.

That's the elephant in the room isn't it, Crystal Of Storms and Port Of Peril are nice tries (if you can overlook their errors) but don't compare with Jon Green's 2000s and 2010s material. If you mean Secrets Of Salamonis and Shadow Of The Giants though I'd say Secrets Of Salamonis is good and Shadow Of The Giants is average. Sure I will get a barrage of criticism from Livingstone nuts fans for the latter but I just don't think it's phenomenal as gamebooks go (basically it could have more action, more choices and variation instead of talking, and\or be longer or have fewer BS pickpockets and 2-bit charlatans).

   Alternatively they could try a new gamebook format? Sandbox and sci-fi are big in pop culture and some young people aren't above picking up gamebooks in print and digital.

[misomiso]

i just dont think sandbox works that well for the mainstream in gamebook formats.

There's excellent sandbox stuff out there, but it tends to have the broad appeal that FF had / has.

Having said that secrets of salamonis is quite close to sandbox and thats great.

[schlendrian]

Sandbox?

[sleepyscholar]

Jan 7, 2024 15:59:50 GMT evilwizard said:

Jan 1, 2024 23:55:32 GMT paperexplorer said:

Authors outside of Steve and Ian need to be introduced. I think the series would lose steam (if it has any) with long gaps between releases. But no more Charlie Higson messes

Its already lost a lot of steam thanks to the long delays between releases, fewer books being (re)issued each year, and the new releases being rubbish.

Yeah, but as we all know so well, it's phenomenally tough to find anyone else willing to write Fighting Fantasy gamebooks. I mean, the original series was all Ian and Steve, and it's not as if fans have ever written any for themselves, is it?