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Post by mooncat on Jan 2, 2024 22:06:20 GMT
Been going a little slowly for me but I've recently started re-reading the collection for the first time as an adult. Some thoughts so far (spoilers too):
House of Hell
Absolutely blown away at how much I enjoyed this. Far more than when I was a kid, and I liked it then. One thing I found interesting was that, as you are a regular person on Earth, I played it with that in mind the whole way through. The only book where it truly feels like YOU are the adventurer. Every decision I made had that in mind; how would 'I' actually act in this scenario. Which I found led to me doing plenty of creeping about and avoiding situations like the huge coward I would be in an actual haunted house haha (and whereas usually you're some kind of Conan-like warrior in the regular books and go charging into situations). This, plus a mixture of directional luck, meant I got almost to the end on my first go (died at the sacrifice scene). Was able to complete it on the third go (second time simply featuring a death in combat). I loved the genuinely creepy atmosphere and the art here is incredible. The goat's head devil worshipper with the head having the upturned eyes being a real favourite. How completely inappropriate it is for children was very entertaining too. Kids in the 80s were expected to be made of much sterner stuff than today! The sacrifice with the disciples all rubbing the blood on themselves in particular being a pretty astonishing scene for a kid's book, but one I enjoyed immensely. Final demon fight was also really fun with the description of the way he forms being cool. I enjoyed this one so much I immediately watched the Hammer classic The Devil Rides Out afterwards. They go hand in hand so well! Top marks, and this one feels like it will be hard to beat.
Island of the Lizard King
The first one I ever read so I was excited when it arrived. The sheer nostalgia of working through this really grabbed me. Particularly all the awesome artwork and recognizing all the creatures like old friends I hadn't seen in decades. I tried to draw several of these creatures when I was younger (I can't draw), the only book I did that with. It was funny to watch Mungo meet his demise Mysterious Island style, and I still felt that little pang of sadness when he died. I remembered this one being one of the more simplistic adventures, and going through it now was a little bland. Very linear, basically just 'move forward, encounter decision, be rewarded or punished, repeat'. That didn't bother me when I was younger, but I found it a bit boring here. Funny how age is making the difference now between the ways Lizard King and HoH have flipped in my estimation with an older reading. The adventure itself was super easy, the only challenging parts being the encounters. Those were still as good as ever though; the slime sucker being a real highlight. Still took me 3 goes to complete. Death by Slime Sucker and Black Lion got me first two times (Black Lion after having been left severely weakened by the Cyclops on the battlefied). Not a lot of ways to recover stamina throughout this one (and unless I'm mistaken, I couldn't find anywhere in the book that gave you a number of provisions you start with), so those big encounters can wear you down; plenty of high skill opponents in this book. I'd also forgotten about the whole freeing slaves and overthrowing their masters angle and that turned out to be the most enjoyable part of the adventure. I feel like stumbling over the monkey and having it make the final battle so easy is a mistake though. Takes away from the big fight. I also really enjoyed the tropical setting and could get a good feel from it from Ian's writing. Overall though I'd say this was a more average adventure which was bumped up a bit extra by nostalgia points.
Keep of the Lich Lord
The first one which I hadn't read before. This one felt like a 'middle of the pack' kind of read. Not great but not bad either. Pretty well written, but surprisingly easy. Seems to be one of the more open world books, which I like, but it all also feels a bit pointless. First time I read through it I didn't explore much and got to Mortiis pretty quickly. Went back for a second read and did more exploring, which yielded some fun adventures, but none of them really seemed to matter with regards to the ending, bar the one where you get the spear to help you kill Mortiis, and even then you don't need that. The vampire subplot was pretty fun, and there were some creative enemies like the Thrasher or the Skull Beast. It has good replay value (on the two times I've played it, still more to discover), but realistically the whole book has the feeling of a side-quest. Pretty much the same plot as Lizard King really: bad guy on an island doing terrible things needs assassinated. Not that that's a bad thing, not every story needs to have some huge world-ending angle and bombast (see the decline of Marvel for evidence), though I would say I enjoyed the encounters in Lizard King a lot more. I'd say Keep of the Lich Lord is the worst of the three so far, but still not bad. Like a cheese cracker with no topping.
That's as far as I've got so far. Picked up the two new ones for Christmas and I've just started into Shadow of the Giants. Enjoying it so far. Also got Salamonis, Dead of Night, and Creature of Havoc lined up for next (all new to me), plus Citadel of Chaos and Crypt of the Sorcerer (re-reads).
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Post by CharlesX on Jan 4, 2024 13:35:01 GMT
I remember enjoying Keep Of The Lich-Lord as it was released around when I was doing my GCSEs and A-levels as it was less demanding than either schoolwork or many FF. I'm reading a CYOA at the moment - Abominable Snowman - and it bought back bad memories as well as good ones. Know, all the old CYOA cliches about out-of-the-blue deaths, entire paths where brutal death is a forgeone conclusion, obvious, unimaginative choices. The writing is merely average like too many CYOA.
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Post by mooncat on Jan 9, 2024 0:26:02 GMT
I remember enjoying Keep Of The Lich-Lord as it was released around when I was doing my GCSEs and A-levels as it was less demanding than either schoolwork or many FF. I'm reading a CYOA at the moment - Abominable Snowman - and it bought back bad memories as well as good ones. Know, all the old CYOA cliches about out-of-the-blue deaths, entire paths where brutal death is a forgeone conclusion, obvious, unimaginative choices. The writing is merely average like too many CYOA.
Never tried CYOA. Are they of the quality of FF? |
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Post by mooncat on Jan 9, 2024 0:43:25 GMT
Citadel of Chaos
Got the gf involved in this one, was fun to play together. Have her hooked now too!
I remembered this one being one of my favourites before, though The Ganjees was literally the only part I could remember of it. The artwork was great and added to some really fun encounters like the ape-dog guards who are the inverse of each other (this scene, plus some of the riddles and other general bits and pieces gave me a real Labyrinth feel; I wonder if Jim Henson was a fan of FF...), the whirlwind woman, and of course the Ganjees themselves. The way the Ganjees are written, with a ghostly face suddenly appearing out of the pitch black and howling towards you was excellently written, and a good little precursor for the fear of House of Hell. Definitely one of my favourite enemy encounters so far, and the first death for us on the gf go through. Tried the spider-man jar and magic. Didn't have the actual required items. I loved the sadism of making you fight the spider guy and then just killing you anyway. Another Jackson precursor! Also loved them taunting your amateur magic skills.
The whole episode/debacle with O'Seamus the leprechaun was great fun too, and I love how many opportunities Jackson gives for you to be tricked by him aside from the unavoidable ones. My gf seems to have a preternatural ability to choose the wrong decision every time, so O'Seamus absolutely got his money's worth out of us! I loved the magic spells, and had forgotten that features like this had been added so early in the FF books. Went for one of each plus a few extra stamina spells. One slight criticism would be that there's aren't that many encounters until the latter part of the book, the first 2/3s or so mainly featuring sections trying to trick you out of wasting your magic spells. Overall though I just loved the way it was written. I could really feel like I was there in the Citadel and it did have a mysterious, threatening, almost kind of hazy/magical feeling throughout. The final encounter too, the best in the series?
A fun side discussion: I'd love to hear what people rank as their top 3 final boss encounters in the series. I think Balthus would likely be my top. Reiner Heydrich and the House of Hell demon might be my other two. Razaak would be in there if the fight wasn't so broken.
Overall I think I'd just put this in second place behind House of Hell, though I could flip a coin. I love that CoC is set in Allansia and is steeped in it's lore and features some of the earliest world-building. But HoH still just edges it for me.
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Post by CharlesX on Jan 9, 2024 10:09:08 GMT
I remember enjoying Keep Of The Lich-Lord as it was released around when I was doing my GCSEs and A-levels as it was less demanding than either schoolwork or many FF. I'm reading a CYOA at the moment - Abominable Snowman - and it bought back bad memories as well as good ones. Know, all the old CYOA cliches about out-of-the-blue deaths, entire paths where brutal death is a forgeone conclusion, obvious, unimaginative choices. The writing is merely average like too many CYOA.
Never tried CYOA. Are they of the quality of FF? The quality is wildly variable, many are poor or average, a few are good, and a very few are surprisingly good and relatively well-written. They write for a different, younger audience to FF, they can come across as juvenile short and wanting in other ways at times. If you like gamebooks you might go for some of them, but then again you might go for others such as Give Yourself Goosebumps or Endless Quest or series\authors that tend to receive critical as well as commercial attention such as Joe Dever Jon Green etc. Quite often CYOA will have an interesting concept and some bright, memorable pieces but the whole can be so-so. |
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,462
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jan 9, 2024 10:11:17 GMT
I'd love to hear what people rank as their top 3 final boss encounters in the series. Balthus is definitely up there. I also really like the final fight in Crystal of Storms and Grool in Legend of Zagor. All three throw an element of strategy into the mix. |
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Post by scouserob on Jan 9, 2024 20:03:28 GMT
I'd love to hear what people rank as their top 3 final boss encounters in the series. I think Balthus would likely be my top.
1. Citadel of Choas - Balthus Dire
Yep, this is also my favourite big boss battle of the ones I have read/revisited as an adult. EPIC STUFF!
2. Shadow of the Giants - The Iron Giants
I love imagining the scenes of you and Goose, on horseback, chasing down those Iron Giants on their way to Hamelin.
3. The Shamutanti Hills - A Manticore
Another magical battle, which boils down to three rounds of spell casting for a wizard or a very difficult battle for a warrior.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,462
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jan 9, 2024 21:21:08 GMT
Oh good shout about the manticore.
Another favourite of mine is the 'fight' with Karam Gruul in Moonrunner - I just love how he blasts you with random spells while you just stand there laughing - until he hits you with one you don't have protection against of course!
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Post by pip on Feb 5, 2024 23:08:28 GMT
Been going a little slowly for me but I've recently started re-reading the collection for the first time as an adult. Some thoughts so far (spoilers too): House of HellAbsolutely blown away at how much I enjoyed this. Far more than when I was a kid, and I liked it then. One thing I found interesting was that, as you are a regular person on Earth, I played it with that in mind the whole way through. The only book where it truly feels like YOU are the adventurer. Every decision I made had that in mind; how would 'I' actually act in this scenario. Which I found led to me doing plenty of creeping about and avoiding situations like the huge coward I would be in an actual haunted house haha (and whereas usually you're some kind of Conan-like warrior in the regular books and go charging into situations). This, plus a mixture of directional luck, meant I got almost to the end on my first go (died at the sacrifice scene). Was able to complete it on the third go (second time simply featuring a death in combat). I loved the genuinely creepy atmosphere and the art here is incredible. The goat's head devil worshipper with the head having the upturned eyes being a real favourite. How completely inappropriate it is for children was very entertaining too. Kids in the 80s were expected to be made of much sterner stuff than today! The sacrifice with the disciples all rubbing the blood on themselves in particular being a pretty astonishing scene for a kid's book, but one I enjoyed immensely. Final demon fight was also really fun with the description of the way he forms being cool. I enjoyed this one so much I immediately watched the Hammer classic The Devil Rides Out afterwards. They go hand in hand so well! Top marks, and this one feels like it will be hard to beat. Good call, I also wish there had been more FF books where it feels you are actually the adventurer. I'd also have liked to see more books in the horror genre. Funny that you should mention a movie companion piece to this book, for me it would be "The House of the Devil" directed by Ti West. It's a 2009 movie but it is set in the 1980s and clearly pays homage to 1980s horror movies. It definitely has House of Hell vibes. |
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Post by CharlesX on Feb 6, 2024 11:13:15 GMT
Been going a little slowly for me but I've recently started re-reading the collection for the first time as an adult. Some thoughts so far (spoilers too): House of HellAbsolutely blown away at how much I enjoyed this. Far more than when I was a kid, and I liked it then. One thing I found interesting was that, as you are a regular person on Earth, I played it with that in mind the whole way through. The only book where it truly feels like YOU are the adventurer. Every decision I made had that in mind; how would 'I' actually act in this scenario. Which I found led to me doing plenty of creeping about and avoiding situations like the huge coward I would be in an actual haunted house haha (and whereas usually you're some kind of Conan-like warrior in the regular books and go charging into situations). This, plus a mixture of directional luck, meant I got almost to the end on my first go (died at the sacrifice scene). Was able to complete it on the third go (second time simply featuring a death in combat). I loved the genuinely creepy atmosphere and the art here is incredible. The goat's head devil worshipper with the head having the upturned eyes being a real favourite. How completely inappropriate it is for children was very entertaining too. Kids in the 80s were expected to be made of much sterner stuff than today! The sacrifice with the disciples all rubbing the blood on themselves in particular being a pretty astonishing scene for a kid's book, but one I enjoyed immensely. Final demon fight was also really fun with the description of the way he forms being cool. I enjoyed this one so much I immediately watched the Hammer classic The Devil Rides Out afterwards. They go hand in hand so well! Top marks, and this one feels like it will be hard to beat. House Of Hell was one of the first very linear gamebooks I played, I neither like nor am brilliant at linear gamebooks so I wish I could have completed it or come close to on the first three tries! There's definitely an element of luck as well with a terrible one in three chance of being foredoomed from inadequate FEAR (aside from combat, as you mention). |
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679 
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Feb 6, 2024 21:47:02 GMT
scouserobFor Shadow of the Giants, I had a hand in extending the final confrontation which was originally just the sequence of 3 Skill Tests with your sword against the weakened Giants. My suggestion was that the last Giant isn't completely destroyed. But as Goose has fallen unconscious, you have to step into the Giant's path to defend your friend using the magic ring to bind the Giant so that you can strike its mechanical heart.
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Post by scouserob on Feb 7, 2024 0:49:37 GMT
Wow, that is pretty damn amazing Sylas. 😎👍🏻
I think your suggestion worked a treat.
The extension reinvigorates the stakes for the conclusion to the chase, switching to an urgent personal act of defense from that of securing Hamelin’s future, which has been looking rosier as the sequence progressed.
Thanks for your part in the enjoyment I had playing through it.
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Post by CharlesX on Feb 7, 2024 16:46:11 GMT
Wow, that is pretty damn amazing Sylas. 😎👍🏻 I think your suggestion worked a treat. The extension reinvigorates the stakes for the conclusion to the chase, switching to an urgent personal act of defense from that of securing Hamelin’s future, which has been looking rosier as the sequence progressed. Thanks for your part in the enjoyment I had playing through it. I agree frankly I'm jealous I would not have thought of something so smart! There were a few technical errors in both the new FF though, fewer than usual but still too many and too serious  . |
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Post by misomiso on Feb 7, 2024 22:08:58 GMT
scouserob For Shadow of the Giants, I had a hand in extending the final confrontation which was originally just the sequence of 3 Skill Tests with your sword against the weakened Giants. My suggestion was that the last Giant isn't completely destroyed. But as Goose has fallen unconscious, you have to step into the Giant's path to defend your friend using the magic ring to bind the Giant so that you can strike its mechanical heart. Great stuff Sylus! Would love to hear about Ian's next book if and when he needs help! |
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Post by edushie on Feb 20, 2024 16:21:40 GMT
You are in for a treat with Creature of Havoc but be warned :
Its by far the hardest book to complete from the original FF series.
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Post by CharlesX on Feb 20, 2024 16:46:22 GMT
You are in for a treat with Creature of Havoc but be warned : Its by far the hardest book to complete from the original FF series. What do you mean by original FF series? I assume you mean up until Curse Of The Mummy (Puffin).
Either way, the 'hardest bit' of Creature Of Havoc is the missing turn to reference link, which might annoy kids, but the dice-rolling difficulty isn't too hard, quite a few FF are either a little harder (Ian Livingstone often writes FF with higher difficulty) or much harder, some to the point where they become very unfair. I wouldn't list them because there are so many FFs with similar or higher difficulty, but see Champskees tables in the solutions thread. The 'true path' isn't terribly difficult either, as I've said the reference link is another ball-game but there are other FF with complicated best path such as Deathtrap Dungeon and City Of Thieves, Creature Of Havoc is just a little above those. It doesn't have, for example, the barren mazes in Warlock Of Firetop Mountain or Chasms Of Malice, which is also a gameplay nightmare.
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Post by sleepyscholar on Feb 21, 2024 4:48:47 GMT
You are in for a treat with Creature of Havoc but be warned : Its by far the hardest book to complete from the original FF series. What do you mean by original FF series? I assume you mean up until Curse Of The Mummy (Puffin).
Either way, the 'hardest bit' of Creature Of Havoc is the missing turn to reference link, which might annoy kids, but the dice-rolling difficulty isn't too hard, quite a few FF are either a little harder (Ian Livingstone often writes FF with higher difficulty) or much harder, some to the point where they become very unfair. I wouldn't list them because there are so many FFs with similar or higher difficulty, but see Champskees tables in the solutions thread. The 'true path' isn't terribly difficult either, as I've said the reference link is another ball-game but there are other FF with complicated best path such as Deathtrap Dungeon and City Of Thieves, Creature Of Havoc is just a little above those. It doesn't have, for example, the barren mazes in Warlock Of Firetop Mountain or Chasms Of Malice, which is also a gameplay nightmare.
I'm beginning to think that when FF fans refer to a book being 'hard' or 'difficult' they aren't really referring to its 'objective' difficulty: the sort of thing that, as you correctly mention, Champskee has analysed so well (and so embarrassingly for me). I think that mixed in with the evaluation is a sort of subjective sense, almost a 'fairness weighting'. A 'hard' book, like Creature of Havoc, is one that feels like a challenge, but where that sense of challenge feels exciting and worth persevering with. What idiots like me failed to recognise was that you could easily make a book that's phenomenally difficult, simply by stacking it with a whole host of arbitrary tricks and puzzles, not to mention combats that are statistically almost impossible to win, but that such a book would be tedious to play. It wouldn't really be 'hard' in edushie's sense because the reader would end up feeling that it wasn't worth the bother. |
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Post by edushie on Feb 21, 2024 17:53:50 GMT
Yes I was indeed referring to the first series of books 1-58.
And I stand by what I said about COH - its almost impossible to beat !
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Per
Traveller
AHAHAHA!
Posts: 152
Favourite Gamebook Series: Morris VR, some FF, Chalk LW
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Post by Per on Feb 21, 2024 18:31:38 GMT
I won CoH legitimately after ~two dozen attempts that may have included some fudging of slippery bridges at the end, so it's not easy by any means. However, that's probably not much harder than winning some Livingstone books like Caverns, Temple or Trial even knowing the true path in every detail, and then Crypt and Spellbreaker are simply orders of magnitude more difficult than anything else, even Masks or Chasms (I haven't played Curse but it might fall into the "not soul-breakingly difficult" category also).
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