FF books ranked by Goodreads avg score

[paperexplorer]

A bit bored on a Friday arvo, I thought I would have a look at how the books ranked on Goodreads according to their average rating and see how different it to generally held views here on the forum.  what did I learn from doing this, well...

1. Ian Livingstone is judged a lot harder here that he is across Goodreads. This maybe because we are seeing less players (or maybe not players at all!) and more readers out of the goodreads audience
2. The newer books stand up much better on scrutiny on goodreads
3. Sci-fi really did not resonate
4. It was pleasing to see Jon Green's newer books held in well regard
5. Classics dominate
6. Keith Martin books didn't fare very well, except for the one that bore Ian's name on the the cover....hmmm...

Anyway, without further ado...

1. Deathtrap Dungeon – 4.04 (colour me not suprised)
2. Stormslayer – 4.02 (and now colour me surprised)
3. City of Thieves – 3.94
4. House of Hell – 3.93
5. Howl of the Werewolf – 3.91
6. Secrets of Salamonis – 3.89 (i like it, but this is certainly over rating it)
7. Trial of Champions – 3.85
8. Warlock of Firetop Mountain – 3.84
9. Forest of Doom – 3.83
10. Legend of Zagor – 3.77 (probably the biggest surprise of the top 10 for me)
11. Citadel of Chaos - 3.76
12. Night of the Necromancer – 3.75
    
13. Sword of the Samurai – 3.72
14. Vault of the Vampire – 3.72
15. Shadow of the Giants – 3.71 
16. Talisman of Death – 3.70
17. Night Dragon – 3.70
18. Gates of Death – 3.70 (and there goes Goodreads' credibility....)
19. Island of the Lizard King – 3.68
20. Midnight Rogue – 3.66
21. Assassins of Allansia – 3.66
22. Creature of Havoc – 3.65
23. Return to Firetop Mountain – 3.64
24. Revenge of the Vampire – 3.64 (what, me, broken?)
25. Caverns of the Snow Witch – 3.63
26. Temple of Terror – 3.63
27. Legend of the Shadow Warriors – 3.62
28. Dead of Night – 3.60
29. Scorpion Swamp – 3.59
30. Seas of Blood – 3.58
31. Moonrunner – 3.56 (what? why so low?)
32. Knights of Doom – 3.56
33. Bloodbones – 3.56
34. Beneath Nightmare Castle – 3.55
35. Crystal of Storms – 3.55 (tell me again how cover and internal art is important)
36. Crypt of the Sorcerer – 3.54 (nuts to playability)
37. Magehunter – 3.54
38. Appointment with FEAR – 3.52
39. Eye of the Dragon – 3.49 (evil wizard smiles)
40. Armies of Death – 3.48
41. Demons of the Deep – 3.46
42. Spectral Stalkers – 3.44
43. Spellbreaker – 3.44
44. Keep of the Lich Lord – 3.43
45. Siege of Sardath – 3.41
46. Blood of the Zombies – 3.40 (nuts to playability, part 2)
47. Freeway Fighter – 3.39 (and here is the first sci-fi)
48. Island of the Undead – 3.39
49. Port of Peril – 3.38
50. Robot Commando – 3.35
51. Phantoms of Fear – 3.34
52. Tower of Destruction – 3.34
53. Curse of the Mummy – 3.31
54. Master of Chaos – 3.28
55. Starship Traveller – 3.27
56. Portal of Evil – 3.27
57. Stealer of Souls – 3.25
58. The Crimson Tide – 3.21
59. Deathmoor – 3.21
60. Black Vein Prophecy – 3.20 (one of my favs, not happy)
61. Daggers of Darkness – 3.19
62. Rebel Planet – 3.17
63. Battleblade Warrior – 3.15
64. Space Assassin – 3.12
65. Masks of Mayhem – 3.11
66. Fangs of Fury – 3.04
67. Slaves of the Abyss – 2.96 (another of my favs, wow)
68. Rings of Kether – 2.91
69. Chasms of Malice – 2.81
70. Star Strider – 2.74
71. Sky Lord – 2.68

So general, some in line with consensus but some real surprises in there.  

[King Gillibran]

Very interesting and there are definitly some surprises in there (Gates of Death high and Black Vein Prophecy low), but on the whole I think it is okay. I do think that of your comments one I would most disagree with is for Secrets of Salamonis as I enjoy it so much it is my second favourite book.

[a moderator]

Jan 26, 2024 7:19:50 GMT paperexplorer said:

67. Slaves of the Abyss – 2.96 (another of my favs, wow)

So general, some in line with consensus but some real surprises in there.  

Based on reviews I've seen, Slaves seems very unpopular with inattentive readers.

I'm not saying that everybody who dislikes it just isn't paying attention, but a lot of the criticisms I've seen are based more in the reader's failure to put two and two together than in actual flaws. 

For example, consider the following possible sequence of events from early in the book:

1. A servant drops a bit of paper near you.
2. You read it and find message warning that you are being watched.
3. Reading the message distracts you, causing you to make a social blunder and draw attention to yourself.
4. You hear that one of the servants has died in a bizarre and horrific manner.

I've seen a review in which the death of the servant is held up as an example of how Slaves is full of random nonsense that has nothing to do with the plot. Sorry, but if you can't even work out what was going on there, perhaps you'd be better off with the Skylark books.

[CharlesX]

My biggest surprises:

Trial Of Champions at no. 7

Creature Of Havoc at no. 22

Rebel Planet at no. 62

Trial Of Champions is fun but I have to agree with the majority of FF audience its middling, not a classic up there above Citadel Of Chaos. I liked it when I was young because it reminded me of Deathtrap Dungeon and Livingstone cliches hadn't got on my nerves yet. Jackson and Livingstone will always divide audiences but Jackson sometimes seems to me to be more creative than Livingstone. Which brings me to Creature Of Havoc - did Goodreads only rank it so middling because of the misprint? Some people think Shakespeare and Tolkien are pretentious and that seems like the sort of thinking which would dislike Creature Of Havoc. Maybe kids were reviewing it who weren't in the target audience - even the artwork is good and perhaps they thought it was too long. Rebel Planet I sympathize with Goodreads here, because its often cited as a really good sci-fi FF when it drags and can be as boring as the others. Give me Freeway Fighter or Space Assassin any day.

Perhaps someone could post FF books ranked by Mrs. Giggles for all the credibility this has?

Edit: Just looked up Mrs. Giggles review of The Warlock Of Firetop Mountain, and you know, this proves my point. Mrs.Giggles moans about the gamebook being "mechanical" "a time-wasting trap" and "boring hacking", giving the gamebook two stars. This reviewer is so superficial she would - does - give awful CYOA three or more stars on the basis they are colourful and fantastic. Like a moderator mentions this approach misses nuances for all gamebooks except those written for the very young. 

[a moderator]

Jan 26, 2024 12:48:45 GMT CharlesX said:

Trial Of Champions is fun but I have to agree with the majority of FF audience its middling, not a classic up there above Citadel Of Chaos. I liked it when I was young because it reminded me of Deathtrap Dungeon and Livingstone cliches hadn't got on my nerves yet. 

And yet so many people in the 'Hopes for FF in 2024 and beyond' thread are clamouring for another sequel to Deathtrap Dungeon from an Ian whose writing has gone downhill since the days when he churned out Trial. Is an (almost certainly) inferior follow-up to a mediocre sequel really the best hope for keeping the range going?

[dragonwarrior8]

Wow nice work and thank you for compiling. I haven't played them all yet myself, but of the ones I have played, Slaves of the Abyss was also the one that immediately jumped out at me as being WAYYYYYY too low. The other two that jumped out as being far too low were Creature of Havoc and Dead of Night.

[CharlesX]

Jan 26, 2024 14:28:17 GMT a moderator said:

Jan 26, 2024 12:48:45 GMT CharlesX said:

Trial Of Champions is fun but I have to agree with the majority of FF audience its middling, not a classic up there above Citadel Of Chaos. I liked it when I was young because it reminded me of Deathtrap Dungeon and Livingstone cliches hadn't got on my nerves yet. 

And yet so many people in the 'Hopes for FF in 2024 and beyond' thread are clamouring for another sequel to Deathtrap Dungeon from an Ian whose writing has gone downhill since the days when he churned out Trial. Is an (almost certainly) inferior follow-up to a mediocre sequel really the best hope for keeping the range going?

Technically perhaps two mediocre sequels .

[thealmightymudworm]

Even though a fair number of the books are rated pretty much where you'd expect them this is a pretty weird list.

I suppose it's worth saying the obvious: it's not the same people doing all these ratings. Many of the people rating the recent books will never even have heard of the ones only printed in the original Puffin range. Most likely even the nostalgic pink-tinged glasses of hindsight are no match for the wide-eyed viewpoint of a ten year old with their first gamebook. All the highest rated entries have been either published or re-issued in the past 20 years (the highest which hasn't is Vault of the Vampire at 14).

The question of fogeys vs whippersnappers aside though, it's hard to comprehend how both Seas of Blood and Scorpion Swamp can outrank Moonrunner (even if only just).

Also, I know he isn't many people's favourite author, but poor Luke Sharp! Out of 71 titles none of his books make the top 60. Naturally Chasms is damned forever by many people because of hmm hmm mmhmm, (but why do Crypt and Blood get relative let-offs?) and surely Fangs and Daggers aren't that bad?

[misomiso]

Talisman of Death being high up gives it a lot of credibility.

I think for books like Legend of Zagor and Trial of Champions it's more that they are sequals to some of the more well known books. Also Legend of Zagor is quite unique in how it plays.

I'm most impressed by Midnight Rogue's standing - I think it shows how the idea and narrative can be quite compelling to the average reader.

[CharlesX]

Jan 27, 2024 0:23:12 GMT thealmightymudworm said:

Also, I know he isn't many people's favourite author, but poor Luke Sharp! Out of 71 titles none of his books make the top 60. Naturally Chasms is damned forever by many people because of hmm hmm mmhmm, (but why do Crypt and Blood get relative let-offs?) and surely Fangs and Daggers aren't that bad?

My theory\understanding is Goodreads is ranking people's favourite books where Luke Sharp is a highly-skilled gamebook author but has questionable literary skills. I agree with people here who value playability but that isn't such a popular view generally. Plus there are definitely a number of Livingstone fans skewering the results - like I imagine a number of people writing ragequit 'complaint' reviews about Creature Of Havoc and Chasms Of Malice where these young people entirely respect an authors choice of difficulty level (or view it a plus).

   I definitely wouldn't take this list seriously.

[CharlesX]

Jan 27, 2024 2:30:26 GMT misomiso said:

Talisman of Death being high up gives it a lot of credibility.

I think for books like Legend of Zagor and Trial of Champions it's more that they are sequals to some of the more well known books. Also Legend of Zagor is quite unique in how it plays.

I'm most impressed by Midnight Rogue's standing - I think it shows how the idea and narrative can be quite compelling to the average reader.

I wouldn't put Shadow Of The Giants above Talisman Of Death, but that is a point about the shape of the audience as much as the ratings.

   Like I said before these reviews are about literary quality\likeability alongside playability. People might enjoy sci-fi FF but they have never been many people's favourites. Notice how Seas Of Blood and Night Dragon have relatively good\high rankings, perhaps because they are less linear than others here.

[sleepyscholar]

This is bonkers.

Just because Magehunter is my favourite of my books, doesn't mean it should be my highest-rated.

[CharlesX]

Hi

In case anyone's interested I checked some non-gamebook FF, just a few of the very well-known ones. As we all know there haven't been that many non-gamebook FF and what there has been has been variable in quality and length alike.

You Are The Hero 4.24 (New number one!)

Titan 3.99 (Between 2 and 3)

Fghting Fantasy: The Introductory Roleplaying Game 3.57 (Between 30 and 31)

Trolltooth Wars 3.31 (53)

Riddling Reaver 3.3 (Between 53 and 54)

While Trolltooth Wars gets the mediocre ranking it ultimately deserves, Titan is a really good read I liked as a kid into mythology, so I'm glad I'm not the only one. I suspect it was bought by many fans already into gamebooks who appreciate it for expanding FF lore, converse to those who like Gates Of Death or Blood Of The Zombies for the author and the read, because they can't have read many gamebooks.

   Riddling Reaver feels more ambitious than Fighting Fantasy. One person's ambition is another person's pretension. You Are The Hero quite clearly has been voted for by fans of FF and Jon Green - so it turns out he has a fanbase as well as Sir Ian!

Edit: Checking again I notice an apparent tie in star rating for Trolltooth Wars and Curse Of The Mummy. I don't know how paperexplorer resolved ties - and disregarding them definitely doesn't seem weird  - but Trolltooth Wars had 157 votes to Curse Of The Mummy's 82, so perhaps Trolltooth Wars wins.

[paperexplorer]

I didn't so much as resolve it, I just put tied books in order of publication date