Poisons in FF

[fertobardi]

Hello,

Im trying to get some insights and inspiration about poison effects described on various FF books for a RPG derivative and could not find nothing on this matter here or elsewhere. Not counting on AFF stuff.

And as i dont have a lot of books, if you happens to remember some of them effects or indicates me the book to dig in and care to tell me i would highly apreciate the effort as will help me a ton.

Manny thanks!

[CharlesX]

Hi fertobardi

I do not have most of my FF owing to a combination of most winding up in charity shops and my parents hating the series, but I have read all of them except about four (Black Vein Prophecy, Deathmoor, Robot Commando and Blood Of The Zombies). My point being I can tell you things I can remember without being able to cite specific references.

  I don't believe there is a specific FF where poison is used much more (or less) than others, many or a majority do not have poison at all. So, I'd say there are two kinds, the kind in traps and exploration or in combat. It would be a bit harsh for a trap to kill a PC out-of-the-blue, so most poison traps tend to be non-fatal, normally causing more than 2 Stamina damage, sometimes Skill loss as well (often 1 per hit). Obviously there can be a throw to avoid damage, often a Test your Luck. Rats sometimes affect a poisonous bite, meaning more Stamina loss, in Freeway Fighter a ratbite causes a pyrrhic victory later in the game, in Crypt Of The Sorceror armour protects you from ratbite at one point.

   I guess two FF I might cite for Poison reference are Howl Of The Werewolf and Night Dragon. In Howl Of The Werewolf Aranaea The Spider-Queen rolls a die for different methods of attack every hit - on a 4 her venomous bite causes 4 damage. Serpensa The Snakewoman does different methods of attack for the first two rounds, and then each of the next two, before dealing the standard two, on the 3rd round she deals a Cobra's kiss, poisonous fangs bite 4 Stamina damage and 1 Skill point. Enemies who have poisoned blades that kill with one hit are very rare (because they are unfair) but one does appear in Slaves Of The Abyss.

Assassins Of Allansia I believe has one enemy who can sneakily cut you for 10 damage because he is an assassin (and if he hits you once, he kills you).

   Adventurers can sometimes purchase\obtain antipoison which can work either after a fight to negate Stamina and\or Skill damage from Poison (it can be bought in Night Dragon), there is an anti-poison earring in Assassins Of Allansia. In Deathtrap Dungeon an adventurer can find a Potion of Trap\Illusion detection which enables an adventurer to spot obvious traps (this being powerful, I'd suggest it only work for one or two adventures in an RPG campaign). 

[thealmightymudworm]

Feb 26, 2024 15:44:51 GMT fertobardi said:

Hello,

I'm trying to get some insights and inspiration about poison effects described in various FF books for a RPG derivative and could not find nothing on this matter here or elsewhere. Not counting on AFF stuff.

And as I dont have a lot of books, if you happens to remember some of their effects or indicate to me the book to dig in and care to tell me I would highly appreciate the effort as it will help me a ton.

Many thanks!

Hi,

Yes, it's difficult to give an overview as they are used in various different ways in different books. One example (in a book I don't know well at all) is in Curse of the Mummy in which the players have an actual Poison score starting at 0. It gradually increases through the book as the poison takes hold and the player dies if it reaches 18.

[Wizard Slayer]

As said above, there's no consistent way of dealing with poison throughout the Fighting Fantasy series. Each author could pretty much go their own way.

Often poison features in instant death paragraphs, but that's not really a mechanic.

Island of the Undead had one of the more advanced mechanics, where with the right knowledge you could find some plants and create a poison (Blade Venom) that could be applied to your weapon for an extra 1 Stamina point of damage per hit. It would last for one combat only, after which it wore off, and had to be applied before combat. A nice twist was that you needed a bottle to contain the venom otherwise you had to apply it immediately.

Daggers of Darkness involves being subjected to a slow-acting poison throughout the book. You shade in regions of a figure (just a fancy way of keeping count) and if the figure is shaded in entirely you die. There's no real effect from the poison apart from this that I recall (i.e. you're never asked how much Poison is in your body for some negative outcome) but the nice part of the mechanic is that as well as time, strenuous activity causes the poison to spread faster which makes you second-guess making some choices, e.g. getting into a combat.

[sylas]

Too many different examples. Just about every other book has a version.

[fertobardi]

Thanks for the input guys. Lot of interesting variations. Thinking of those different data we have the classic added damage and damage over time situations.

I was think of: if the dagger cuts, the poison is absorbed and is dripped from the blade for that combat and the enemy will get:

1 stamina damage for 5 rounds and on the end of the 5th round the foe get -1 skill if he still alive.

But maybe well, 5 rounds would be hard to track down, maybe do 2 stamina damage in 3 rounds will do... Anyways thanks a lot. Really helped me out.

[sleepyscholar]

Feb 29, 2024 22:33:00 GMT fertobardi said:

Thanks for the input guys. Lot of interesting variations. Thinking of those different data we have the classic added damage and damage over time situations.

I was think of: if the dagger cuts, the poison is absorbed and is dripped from the blade for that combat and the enemy will get:

1 stamina damage for 5 rounds and on the end of the 5th round the foe get -1 skill if he still alive.

But maybe well, 5 rounds would be hard to track down, maybe do 2 stamina damage in 3 rounds will do... Anyways thanks a lot. Really helped me out.

Having been correctly called out earlier for including (unfair) poisoned blades, I feel I should attempt to partially redeem myself by pointing out that it isn't just unfair, it's inaccurate. There are very few poisons in existence that are anywhere near as deadly as those portrayed in role-playing games (and we're talking about poison by ingestion or injection, generally, rather than contact). Tetrodoxin (which I have flirted with, having eaten fugu a few times) is an incredibly dangerous naturally occurring toxin, but symptoms of a fatal dose won't show up for 17 minutes, and you're going to die anything up to 8 hours after that. Botox is pretty deadly, but takes a very long time to have an effect, though even if it doesn't kill you you may end up looking like Anne Robinson. VX is one of the most deadly nerve agents in the world, and it can take days to kill, though it can induce a coma pretty quickly. But these deadly poisons are impractical for use on weapons. If they're going to have any effect on a victim, then they're just as likely to harm the person wielding a poisoned weapon (Kim Jong Nam's assassins administered the nerve agent by each spraying one of two non-lethal components on Kim's face, where they combined to form VX; even then one of the assassins developed symptoms of VX poisoning).

Since the purpose of a weapon is generally to kill anyway, there's no point in the additional risk of poisoning a blade. The only point in administering poison with a weapon is if you only get one shot and plan to get away afterwards (this applies to the Aum Shinrikyo VX murder: the victim chased his attackers for 90m before collapsing; also the famous Bulgarian umbrella devices). Really deadly agents, such as the novichok Putin has deployed, could not be used on a weapon without almost certainly killing the wielder.

So a poison that 'drips' off a blade is no use: it'll be more likely to poison the user. The poison would have to be highly viscous, and a weapon would be a pretty poor delivery mechanism for this sort of poison.

So in practice, a poisoned weapon is actually going to have zero effect on combat. Sure, it could have effects after the combat (which could make it interesting in plot terms), but the time frame of most combats is way, way shorter than the time a deliverable poison would take effect.

[fertobardi]

Poisons are sufficiently real, even for a RPG.

The venom of the rattlesnake, for example, when administered in a sufficiently lethal quantity, can cause serious and potentially fatal effects within minutes of injection as well as hours. There are several factors to consider. Location of the bite, pre-disposition of the individual, amount of dosis, etc...

But generally speaking, poisons will still meet an important criteria: instantly added damage! It burns and hurts a lot! The added damage being not enough to instakill. But thats why its damage over time anyways.

African and Amazonian tribes, as well as some ancient cultures, used poisoned darts in blowguns. Darts were often dipped in poisonous substances such as curare or extracts from local plants.

The indians in my country used curare, a poisonous substance made from a mixture of plants and herbs found in the Amazon rainforest. Indigenous tribes have developed specific and "sophisticated" methods of preparing curare, which generally involve extracting the active components of plants such as the liana strychnos toxifera and other plant species to coat the tips of arrows, making them more lethal during hunting or in conflicts.

In general, curare can begin to take effect within minutes of the poison entering the bloodstream. Initial symptoms may include tingling at the wound site, followed by muscle weakness and difficulty moving the affected limbs. As paralysis develops, the victim may experience difficulty breathing and generalized weakness.

Nowadays its use is very restricted and controlled due to its potentially lethal effects and its use as a paralyzing agent in medicine and scientific research. In addition to curare, several other poisonous substances were used to coat arrowheads, making them more lethal. This includes poisons such as latex from various plants, aconitine (from aconitum, also known as "wolf grass"), and even poisons from animals such as scorpions and spiders.

In the Middle Ages there are some cases where the blades of swords and daggers were coated with poison before a battle. This was especially common in certain Eastern cultures and among hired killers.

[sleepyscholar]

Mar 6, 2024 22:46:21 GMT fertobardi said:

In the Middle Ages there are some cases where the blades of swords and daggers were coated with poison before a battle. This was especially common in certain Eastern cultures and among hired killers.

Can you provide a source for this?

I mean, a real source rather than a work of fiction?

There is plenty of evidence for the use of poisons on missile weapons (you give several good examples yourself), but while poisoned blades have been a popular fictional trope for centuries, there's little evidence that they were actually used, for the reasons I went into.

[CharlesX]

One possible source is Maelstrom RPG, which I believe is obscure if good in paperback but might be online. They have an entire section with 10+ pages about herbs that may be used for poisons, largely for assassins, detailing with pictures things like their rarity, effect and duration. One I remember is Deadly Nightshade. As sleepyscholar points out poison tends to be rarely used in the real world, but less rarely in the medieval world, and still less in fantastic worlds.

preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/54233/Maelstrom

[fertobardi]

Mar 7, 2024 1:45:34 GMT sleepyscholar said:

Mar 6, 2024 22:46:21 GMT fertobardi said:

In the Middle Ages there are some cases where the blades of swords and daggers were coated with poison before a battle. This was especially common in certain Eastern cultures and among hired killers.

Can you provide a source for this?

I mean, a real source rather than a work of fiction?

There is plenty of evidence for the use of poisons on missile weapons (you give several good examples yourself), but while poisoned blades have been a popular fictional trope for centuries, there's little evidence that they were actually used, for the reasons I went into.

Im starting this highlighting what i told about being "common in certain eastern cultures". Not saying is common for all.

Another point that i think its interesting for analysis is that we have to ask if the usage of poison in blades was not widely spred just because of efficiency alone or maybe something more of ethics and moral were involved?

Reluctance to use poison weapons may have had its origin in the linkage of medicine, poisons, and mysticism common in societies everywhere. Whatever the reasons, however, antipathy to poison weapons is deep-seated, and most nations have embraced the norm that deems these weapons morally repugnant. Policies should be sought that enhance this attitude and therefore make the use of such weapons less likely.

Theres manuscript called Fiori dei Liberi that mentions a weapon in his which is a pole weapon with a block attached, the block is drilled with holes, in which an irritating and corrosive powder is stuffed which releases on impact. Thats yet being europe. The genoese daggers too have some folk lore around involving dripped with poison blades.


But lets stick with the eastern poisoned assassins cases:

First one: chinese dagger with poison:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jing_Ke#cite_note-gongtong72-5

Idk if that counts but Philipines have: kris blades with damage over time???

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kris

"In former times, kris blades were said to be infused with poison during their forging, ensuring that any injury was fatal. The poison used to polish kris blade is called warangan.[31] The process of chemical coating was done by warangan or jamas (washing) the blade with acid and minerals that contains arsenic compounds.[32] The process of doing so was kept secret among smiths. Different types of whetstones, acidic juice of citrus fruits and poisonous arsenic bring out the contrast between the dark black iron and the light colored silvery nickel layers which together form pamor, damascene patterns on the blade."


That other one its pretty interesting:

www.researchgate.net/publication/372956706_The_Evolution_of_Poison_Use_in_Hunting_Warfare_and_Covert_Operations


The Scythians had wrecked some poisonous havoc.

"Their use of poison was so infamous that it was said to have affected the tactics of their enemies, who were hesitant to engage them in combat. Even Alexander the Great was reported to have altered his strategy during his campaign against the Scythians, due to his fear of their poisoned weapons. The practices of the Scythians illustrate the strategic importance of poison in warfare among the ancient nomadic tribes. By harnessing the lethal properties of their environment, they were able to develop a weapon system that instilled fear in their enemies and helped them dominate the Eurasian steppes for centuries. Their innovative use of poison underscores the role of toxicology."

Next: Indian Thugees sect. The grand grand grand fathers of Thugs.

was.media/en/2023-03-01-the-highest-criminal-record-who-killed-two-million-people/

"Thug poisoners hid the poison in jewelry and smeared it on the victim’s exposed body parts whenever they could. Daggerers practiced quick stabs to the temple or back of the head so that less blood would flow from the body."

Lastly the persian Hashashin, also known as the Assassins, were a covert Islamic sect active during the Middle Ages. While the Hashashin are shrouded in myth and legend, historical accounts indicate that they used a variety of weapons and techniques to carry out their assassinations.

They were known for their skill with poisons and were said to have used a variety of methods to deliver their lethal payloads, including poisoning food or drink or coating their weapons with poison.

I would like to add that:

Manny accounts of the past, as we claim for official sources, are not likely to represent truth in its entirety. Its widely known thats a lot of mixture with the myths and legends. See at Herodotus describing Atlantis on his old texts. Knights and Chinese warriors fighting dragons and Vikings versus giants.

We can confirm exactly with the tribes because they still exists some way with their ancient habits. Regardless is oral history or not. The poisoned arrows still out there.

But, and a big if here, they had access to daggers and swords?

[sleepyscholar]

Loads of fantastic examples there, although of course the majority are hearsay and legend. I honestly don't think the moral imperative is what has limited poison use. People will blather on about weapons, whether it's poison weapons, crossbows, NBC weapons, whatever, but they'll still threaten with them and use them at a pinch (let's keep our fingers crossed over Putin and his N weapons). It's the practicality that really determines whether they are used or not. One fascinating thing that you brought up, however, which I hadn't really thought about, is that while poisoned blades are actually impractical in use, they have a useful impact on morale. This applies more to battlefield opponents or political/assassin-like organisations. I think there are also cases where warriors deliberately smeared shit or other sources of bacteria on their blades to increase the chance of infection (not that those doing it were aware of the mechanism). This is probably as practical as poison, and has the morale effect. But these are not uses that are that relevant to RPG conflict. As I mentioned, the idea of a combatants suffering penalties during the combat from poison inflicted from a blade is nonsense. Any impact from a poison would be trivial compared to the actual injury from the blade, until well after the combat was over.

Your first example, though, reminds me that if we're accepting magic, all bets are off. Gu poison is big in Chinese culture (and worms its way into many legends such as the one you mention, as well as fantastic stuff like the fiction of Jin Yong). Even there, though, I don't recall too many examples of the poison taking effect during the combat.

[petch]

Mar 8, 2024 7:47:50 GMT sleepyscholar said:

I think there are also cases where warriors deliberately smeared shit or other sources of bacteria on their blades to increase the chance of infection 

I very much hope you've come up with a gameplay mechanic for this in The Wailing World.

[sleepyscholar]

Mar 8, 2024 10:31:01 GMT petch said:

Mar 8, 2024 7:47:50 GMT sleepyscholar said:

I think there are also cases where warriors deliberately smeared shit or other sources of bacteria on their blades to increase the chance of infection 

I very much hope you've come up with a gameplay mechanic for this in The Wailing World.

If only! But The Wailing World isn't really about warriors. It's more about weird magic and spiny creatures. You know, like Leicester city centre on a Saturday night...

Having said that, there are many bits of the published scenario added by the GM Warlock staff and I haven't read all of them yet. Who knows? They may have seen fit to insert this essential mechanic.

I guess I should pull my finger out and get a translation finished so that I can hawk it around (if such a thing is possible when there is basically only one publisher) at FFF5. A translation? You say. Didn't you write it in English? Well yes, I did, but the scenario was published in Japanese, and incorporated editorial changes which I think greatly improved it.

[fertobardi]

sleepyscholar

Im quite sure that the chinese example that i gave have nothing to do with magic nor legend. Its stated in the text as a historical fact. Althought i know that chinese legends have huge examples of poisonous blades weapons.

The other examples are quite historical also, the Scythians, the Indians thugee sect, etc.

The only example that is i think, much more shrouded in uncertainty, could be the persian hashishins but i had it warned.

Anyways i will give you a point on the case: poisoned mellee weapons efficiency versus ranged poisoned weapons. But not to the extent to call it nonsense. How is that?

Lets realistic assume that a dagger and a sword are sufficiently lethal by itselves when it comes to mellee range combat. So in most cases you rely to kill by the pure blade and step on their heads. No need of poisons really.

But i think we cant assume the same lethality for a wound made by a sole hit and miss arrow. But in case if you add poison to that, it lethality are more likely going higher and even the paralysis like curare effect.

The Scythians arrowheads were mixed with a mixture of putrid blood blended with different poisons and venoms. Shooting Alexander's troops from a distance and made one hit one kill i believe was pretty annoying to the extent of little kamikase planes sinking carriers.

I believe that the chance of an infection of a wound made by an arrow would be definetely very high even without the poison factor. Let alone the lethality of barbed arrows.

But well, for the poisonous blades, i can give you that. And i thank you because it was a lot of food for thought.

After that, im thinking that a rogue using poison to paralyse a foe would make more sense using poisoned crossbow arrows than using it smeared on a trowing dagger.

Anyways, Stuart Lloyd gave us at Warlock Return issue 6 i think an interesting aproach regarding Curare poison on ranged weapons: with a mechanic that makes ppl loose 1 to 3 skill points due to paralysis.

[bloodbeasthandler]

Here are a couple of examples of apparently poisoned daggers from the time of the Crusades:
According to one version, one night, Saladin's guards noticed a spark glowing down the hill of Masyaf and then vanishing among the Ayyubid tents. Saladin awoke from his sleep to find a figure leaving the tent. He saw that the lamps in his tent were displaced and beside his bed laid hot scones of the shape peculiar to the Assassins with a note at the top pinned by a poisoned dagger. The note threatened that he would be killed if he did not withdraw from his siege. Saladin gave a loud cry, exclaiming that Sinan [The Old Man of the Mountain, leader of the Assassins] himself was the figure that left the tent. 

This sounds like a legend, doesn't it? There's more than a whiff of the supernatural about it. 

And this concerning King Edward the First when he was on Crusade:
in June 1272 he was the victim of an assassination attempt by a member of the Syrian Order of Assassins, supposedly ordered by Baibars. Although he managed to kill the assassin, he was struck in the arm by a dagger feared to be poisoned, and was severely weakened over the following months.

In the latter example, how do we know that there wasn't just an infected wound? 

Generally speaking, if the patient dies (especially if it is a king or sultan), do we think a doctor might ascribe the loss of of life to 'poison' rather than the failure of his treatment?

Having said all this, I'm open to the idea that poison was used on weaponry. If poisons were available that could cause a deadly infection, I don't see why they wouldn't use them. It makes little difference if the target dies on the spot or a week later. 

[fertobardi]

Comparing and analysing all this data shown on that thread, from the FF fantastic ideas to the real case scenarios or hypothesis, the most neat poison mechanics should be from these:

Feb 26, 2024 20:17:38 GMT thealmightymudworm said:

Yes, it's difficult to give an overview as they are used in various different ways in different books. One example (in a book I don't know well at all) is in Curse of the Mummy in which the players have an actual Poison score starting at 0. It gradually increases through the book as the poison takes hold and the player dies if it reaches 18.

Feb 27, 2024 17:03:52 GMT Wizard Slayer said:

Daggers of Darkness involves being subjected to a slow-acting poison throughout the book. You shade in regions of a figure (just a fancy way of keeping count) and if the figure is shaded in entirely you die. There's no real effect from the poison apart from this that I recall (i.e. you're never asked how much Poison is in your body for some negative outcome) but the nice part of the mechanic is that as well as time, strenuous activity causes the poison to spread faster which makes you second-guess making some choices, e.g. getting into a combat.

Althought i dont know either of those books, im just comparing superficially what was exposed. But it raised curiosity a lot regarding reading them.

An honorable mention again for slloyd14 about the curare effect that i have found pretty neat and accurate because i think its practically the only one poison that would take effect properly during combat and not hours or days after.

[fertobardi]

Mar 8, 2024 20:40:11 GMT bloodbeasthandler said:

Here are a couple of examples of apparently poisoned daggers from the time of the Crusades:
According to one version, one night, Saladin's guards noticed a spark glowing down the hill of Masyaf and then vanishing among the Ayyubid tents. Saladin awoke from his sleep to find a figure leaving the tent. He saw that the lamps in his tent were displaced and beside his bed laid hot scones of the shape peculiar to the Assassins with a note at the top pinned by a poisoned dagger. The note threatened that he would be killed if he did not withdraw from his siege. Saladin gave a loud cry, exclaiming that Sinan [The Old Man of the Mountain, leader of the Assassins] himself was the figure that left the tent. 

That guy being the leader of the Hashishins that i was talking earlier and i lacked substantial sources. They look like ninjas of the desert. Much like Lord Azzur assassins i guess.

[sleepyscholar]

I think I should also reiterate the difference between a legend and a reliable historical source. That fact that someone in history wrote about poisoned weapons, believing them to exist, does not tell us that they actually did exist, or were effective, as bloodbeasthandler has pointed out. It tells us that they were believed in. A historical source from Egyptian times stating that the Sun was the God Ra in his fiery chariot, does not tell us that the Sun actually is a god; it tells us what the Egyptians believed.

I repeat my argument: I have seen no evidence of the combat effectiveness of poison on bladed weapons. By this, I mean I have not heard of any having an effect on a victim within the time span of a combat, other than a possible intimidation effect. We know they have been tried. If they really were effective, they would have been used more widely.

As a game mechanic, I think there are ways in which poisoned weapons can add drama (the gu poison in Jin Yong books shows how). I'm more sceptical about making them affect combat on a mechanical level. They end up losing drama and just being another source of lost hit points. I remember some idiot in a Fighting Fantasy gamebook introducing rules for a killing blow. The excuse was to make combat more exciting, but I think the real motivation (and I write as said idiot) was just to shorten combats, which he found interminable. That rule quite rightly caught a lot of flak from fans.

[CharlesX]

Hi

I believe I already mentioned Maelstrom RPG but another series where poison is utilised is Way Of The Tiger series en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Way_of_the_Tiger, where you play a Ninja who can train in Poison Immunity (instead of choosing another, also useful skill), and enemies use poison both as traps and on blades.

I personally feel sleepyscholar might be overemphasizing the point poisons don't tend to be used in the real world; yes, they aren't used in blades but they are all too often used by assassins in drinks etc. (not to say on missiles, too), as they are easy to administer, and, as their symptoms may easily be mistaken for infection. That poison on blades isn't massively used in the real world by professionals doesn't mean they shouldn't be prevalent in an RPG. Magic isn't used in the real world, after all.

[slloyd14]

Mar 9, 2024 1:00:04 GMT fertobardi said:

Comparing and analysing all this data shown on that thread, from the FF fantastic ideas to the real case scenarios or hypothesis, the most neat poison mechanics should be from these:

Feb 26, 2024 20:17:38 GMT thealmightymudworm said:

Yes, it's difficult to give an overview as they are used in various different ways in different books. One example (in a book I don't know well at all) is in Curse of the Mummy in which the players have an actual Poison score starting at 0. It gradually increases through the book as the poison takes hold and the player dies if it reaches 18.

Feb 27, 2024 17:03:52 GMT Wizard Slayer said:

Daggers of Darkness involves being subjected to a slow-acting poison throughout the book. You shade in regions of a figure (just a fancy way of keeping count) and if the figure is shaded in entirely you die. There's no real effect from the poison apart from this that I recall (i.e. you're never asked how much Poison is in your body for some negative outcome) but the nice part of the mechanic is that as well as time, strenuous activity causes the poison to spread faster which makes you second-guess making some choices, e.g. getting into a combat.

Althought i dont know either of those books, im just comparing superficially what was exposed. But it raised curiosity a lot regarding reading them.

An honorable mention again for slloyd14 about the curare effect that i have found pretty neat and accurate because i think its practically the only one poison that would take effect properly during combat and not hours or days after.

Many thanks for the mention! Someone I tutor wanted to know how various poisons work and, like with everything I know, I decided to turn it into a game rule. You are right that most poisons don't have an immediate effect. Ricin might kill someone, but that is in 3 days and that is no use when they are swinging an axe at your head!

[sleepyscholar]

Mar 9, 2024 17:06:27 GMT CharlesX said:

Hi

I believe I already mentioned Maelstrom RPG but another series where poison is utilised is Way Of The Tiger series en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Way_of_the_Tiger, where you play a Ninja who can train in Poison Immunity (instead of choosing another, also useful skill), and enemies use poison both as traps and on blades.

I personally feel sleepyscholar might be overemphasizing the point poisons don't tend to be used in the real world; yes, they aren't used in blades but they are all too often used by assassins in drinks etc. (not to say on missiles, too), as they are easy to administer, and, as their symptoms may easily be mistaken for infection. That poison on blades isn't massively used in the real world by professionals doesn't mean they shouldn't be prevalent in an RPG. Magic isn't used in the real world, after all.

I take your point, but I am not against the fantasy (have you read any Jin Yong books? This is the world of flying swordsman and absurd feats). I am against mistakenly introducing something which in practice is not dramatic, based on a misapprehension about its reality. Case in point: the Way of the Tiger series. Jamie believes all sorts of nonsense about ninja as real, no matter how much Dave (Morris) and I try to disappraise him. Personally I much prefer Dave's take on ninja, which abandons the 'balaclava-clad special forces' cliché for a much weirder angle. In this version, ninja could indeed use weapons which were, effectively, poison weapons. The point is, in a world with magic, ninja would not just be the aforementioned special forces, they would actually live up to their mythical image, because they would be mages. They would be able to walk across water, transform into animals... and wield envenomed weapons with close to immediate effect. But if such weapons were instant kills, it would actually be more boring. Much more interesting would be to find things that the venom would do rather than just kill. The first, obvious, one would be paralysis, though I can see 'strike dumb', 'strike blind' or 'induce forgetfulness' as being other interesting possibilities.

The arguments in favour of poisons seem to often involve saying 'such and such a rolegame includes them'. OK, well let's hear from anyone who has played Maelstrom or any of the others, who found that poisoned weapons added to the game, and let's hear how. Although I don't run a game any more, I did from 1978 to 2001, and in that span of time, despite using sets of rules which allowed for poisoned weapons, I cannot remember a single occasion when one of them added anything to the game. I'm absolutely not saying they can't. I just don't think that a game implementation of VX that can be stuck on a blade without killing the wielder is an interesting way to go. The delay that real-world poisons introduce, which makes them less useful in combat, is actually dramatically useful, because it introduces more possibilities, for example for saving a poisoned character. Which is the more interesting story:

1. Assassin breaks into character's stronghold, fights character, inflicts wound with poisoned weapon and escapes. Character promptly dies.
2. Assassin breaks into character's stronghold, fights character, inflicts wound with poisoned weapon and escapes. While the character writhes on the floor in agony, his compatriots chase after the fleeing assassin, cornering him after a daring rooftop chase. There ensues a hair-raising combat in which the characters take special care not to be hit by the poisoned weapon, and they force the assassin off the roof. Checking his broken body below, they find a vial of antidote (first rule of poisons, right?), but it's cracked. They have to get it back to their compatriot before the contents leak out...

[sleepyscholar]

Mar 13, 2024 8:06:32 GMT slloyd14 said:

Mar 9, 2024 1:00:04 GMT fertobardi said:

Comparing and analysing all this data shown on that thread, from the FF fantastic ideas to the real case scenarios or hypothesis, the most neat poison mechanics should be from these:




Althought i dont know either of those books, im just comparing superficially what was exposed. But it raised curiosity a lot regarding reading them.

An honorable mention again for slloyd14 about the curare effect that i have found pretty neat and accurate because i think its practically the only one poison that would take effect properly during combat and not hours or days after.

Many thanks for the mention! Someone I tutor wanted to know how various poisons work and, like with everything I know, I decided to turn it into a game rule. You are right that most poisons don't have an immediate effect. Ricin might kill someone, but that is in 3 days and that is no use when they are swinging an axe at your head!

Curare is a great example for this discussion. It works on missile weapons, but would be very tricky to apply to a bladed weapon other than maybe a stiletto (for reasons of quantity required, for starters). Also it induces paralysis, which is more dramatically interesting. Curare only kills because the paralysis prevents breathing. If you could artificially respirate a curare victim, you could keep them alive.