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Post by schlendrian on Feb 23, 2020 12:05:21 GMT
How about doing Warlock now? With your items the cyclops should be manageable and there is the +2 AS sword to be had.
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sylas
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Post by sylas on Feb 23, 2020 14:02:28 GMT
As you have the Chain of Argolis, although it's not productive at all, it would be funny to eventually take on Razaak and just kill him outright without going through that unfair fight.
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Post by peasantscribbler on Feb 23, 2020 14:51:56 GMT
How about doing Warlock now? With your items the cyclops should be manageable and there is the +2 AS sword to be had. I don’t feel right about going to WoFTM without a lantern, even if doing so isn’t explicitly against the basic-to-epic rules. My own house rule for playing WoFTM has long been that you are not allowed to give up your lantern in order to pick up something else because there are a couple of places that the text assumes that you still have a lantern. I think that, at minimum, you need a lantern and a weapon to play WoFTM. I’m now leaning towards playing Legend of the Shadow Warriors so that I can buy a lantern and provisions and then make my way to Firetop Mountain.
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Post by jmisbest on Feb 23, 2020 16:11:31 GMT
May I make the suggestion of allowing players to have their character store things with friends and family that they don't want to carry on them but don't want to get rid of in case they may be of use in a later adventure?. 2 examples of when that may be a good idea is A Flintlock Pistol got in Howl of The Werewolf or Port of Peril to use in the other and A Potion of Giant Strength that can be got for free from A Wizard in Stormslayer to use in Bloodbones but at no cost
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sylas
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Post by sylas on Feb 23, 2020 23:30:05 GMT
May I make the suggestion of allowing players to have their character store things with friends and family that they don't want to carry on them but don't want to get rid of in case they may be of use in a later adventure?. 2 examples of when that may be a good idea is A Flintlock Pistol got in Howl of The Werewolf or Port of Peril to use in the other and A Potion of Giant Strength that can be got for free from A Wizard in Stormslayer to use in Bloodbones but at no cost No, to be blunt. What you're suggesting creates a situation where everything becomes super easy as you've taken away all restrictions that make this a challenge, not to mention you've used all example books that are not part of the original series of 1-59 strictly laid out in the rules. There's no danger of loss or worry about resource management that would make you plan your actions more carefully. You end up making a challenge where you can't really lose, and that's not how a challenge works I'm afraid.
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Post by Gabe Fandango on Feb 24, 2020 6:34:21 GMT
How about starting the challenge with Magehunter (FF57)? Starting at SK 7 and ST 14 would actually be the best stats to use for this unique book. And if you complete the book on the optimal path you get a Sacred Mace with +4 Attack Strength which will be a great help for later books.
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Post by jmisbest on Feb 24, 2020 10:26:12 GMT
I have a suggestion about a change that I think will benefit both The Basic to Epic Challenge and the people that like me want to play it and beat it fairly, but struggle with it but refuse to cheat and don't want to use guides unless they think theirs no other way. Here it is. What do you think?
I'd change it so that if you do Island of The Lizard King and get The Pouch of Unlimited Contents that can hold anything and everything that can fit inside it and not weight a thing that you only let it double the normal maximum number of items you can carry to stop sneaky players using it to potentially hold dozens of small yet useful items and if the player loses it then he or she potentially loses everything they had on them other then their Sword or whatever weapon they're carrying in their hand
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Post by jmisbest on Feb 24, 2020 10:26:57 GMT
May I make the suggestion of allowing players to have their character store things with friends and family that they don't want to carry on them but don't want to get rid of in case they may be of use in a later adventure?. 2 examples of when that may be a good idea is A Flintlock Pistol got in Howl of The Werewolf or Port of Peril to use in the other and A Potion of Giant Strength that can be got for free from A Wizard in Stormslayer to use in Bloodbones but at no cost No, to be blunt. What you're suggesting creates a situation where everything becomes super easy as you've taken away all restrictions that make this a challenge, not to mention you've used all example books that are not part of the original series of 1-59 strictly laid out in the rules. There's no danger of loss or worry about resource management that would make you plan your actions more carefully. You end up making a challenge where you can't really lose, and that's not how a challenge works I'm afraid. Ooops sorry my mistake I'd forgot about the bit about only the 1st 59 Books. My apologies
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Feb 24, 2020 10:50:47 GMT
How about starting the challenge with Magehunter (FF57)? Starting at SK 7 and ST 14 would actually be the best stats to use for this unique book. And if you complete the book on the optimal path you get a Sacred Mace with +4 Attack Strength which will be a great help for later books. Some spoiler-heavy musings on this, Black Vein Prophecy, Spellbreaker, Knights of Doom and The Crimson Tide: The problem with taking a min stats character through Magehunter is high Luck helps a lot in that book. According to Champskees' stats, a 7/14/7 character has 0% chance of beating the book while a 7/14/12 character has a 46% chance. But yeah Magehunter would be very hard to do if it's left too late in the sequence. Doing Forest of Doom first to get your Luck to 8 by gulping down the Potion of Fortune would be helpful but probably insufficient. Skill is irrelevant in Magehunter so a book which increased your Skill and Luck would be fine, but anything that increased your Stamina would hurt your chances.
Black Vein Prophecy unfortunately has the opposite problem - you want a low Luck but high Skill and Stamina. To do that one, you'd first need to build your stats up then find some way to penalise your Luck. It's very hard to see a scenario where you could beat both books in the same run - maybe they're both best avoided entirely!
Spellbreaker and Knights of Doom are also problematic if your Skill is too high (although I understand this isn't an issue with KoD if you're really good at decryption - sadly I'm not!). Something like the +4AS Mace would actually be really useful for Spellbreaker since you could use it on all the uber-hard fights but not bother with the fight you're meant to struggle with. Actually come to think about it, do the rules for Spellbreaker penalise you for fighting barehanded? If so, that could be a way for a high Skill character to get round that fight with the guards. It would even make sense from a role-playing perspective to as you might want to hold back against law enforcement types. Of course, it would be better if you could just surrender to them without fighting in the first place...
The Crimson Tide is another problematic one (damn Paul Mason and his unconventional designs!) and probably one that should be done very early on if at all. A min stats character should have no problem with the fights which are aimed at someone weaker than someone starting off as 7/14/7, and the plethora of ways to boost your stats would actually make this a very helpful book. The main problem is the higher your Stamina, the higher your Ferocity. A Stamina 14 character would have a starting Ferocity of 8-13. The correct path boosts your Ferocity by 1 and then requires you to fail a Ferocity roll. This means a Stamina 14 character would have a 4.6% chance of failing that roll. The rest of the book (provided you know the true path) would be plain sailing and you'd come out of it a he-man, but those are slim odds!
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Post by jmisbest on Feb 24, 2020 10:59:41 GMT
How about not counting The Lantern and Suit of Leather Armour that The Main Character of almost every Book in The Series starts with?
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Post by jmisbest on Feb 24, 2020 11:16:46 GMT
I've spend a lot of the last few days doing The Basic to Epic Challenge, have done Moonrunner, Warlock of Firetop Mountain, Scorpion Swamp and Deathtrap Dungeon and want to know what adventure would challenge the following character. Also I let me take 800 Gold Coins in cash and 250 Gold Coins in both Gems and Jewellery from Zagors Chest in Warlock of Firetop Mountain, allow my character to keep The 10,000 Gold Coins prize from Deathtrap Dungeon but has to put it in A Bank rather then on him and don't count The Sword, Leather Armour and Lantern that are the basic essentials of Adventuring against the 5 item limit.
Stats
Skill 9/13, Stamina 15 and Luck 11 Skills
From Moonrunner I have Acrobatics, Climb, Disguise, Lock Picking and Sleight of Hand
Belongings
That don’t count against your 5 item limit
I started with 1 Sword, 1 suit of Leather Armour and 1 Lantern
From Scorpion Swamp I have 1 Luck Gem -restores 1D3 used Luck and 1 Brass Ring -useless outside of Scorpion Swamp
Meals wise I have 6
The stuff I have that does against your 5 item limit is 1 Magic Sword -gives +2 Skill, 1 Gauntlet of Weapon Skill -gives +1 Skill, 1 Throwing Knive -hits on A 8 or less and does 2 damage, The Hand of Glory -user loses 1 Stamina at the start of every fight but all of his/her foes suffer -1 Skill and 1 Shield -gives +1 Skill Loot and as long as its cash, jewels, gems and similar small stuff doesn’t count against your 5 item limit
On me is 146 Gold Coins
In A Bank I have 11,032 Gold Coins, 300 Gold Coins worth of Gems, 300 Gold Coins worth of Jewellery, 2 Tiny Earrings and 1 Brass Bell
Ooops sorry forgot about The 10 Gold Coins and The +2 Sword from The Zombie Room, 8 Gold Coins from The Minotaur, 2D6 or 9 Gold Coins via gambling with The Dwarfs and winning thanks to A Luck roll of A double 1 and The 5 Gold Coins and earrings from The Room with The Ghoul from Warlock of Firetop Mountain, I've since amended it
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Post by jmisbest on Feb 24, 2020 12:26:33 GMT
What about Items that are essential to completing the quest such as The Black Pearls, Hags Hair and Black Lotus Petals from City of Thieves, Dragons Teeth in Return to Firetop Mountain and The Gold Talismens and Silver Daggers in Legend of Zagor. Do they count or not?. I'd say that they don't count in the adventure or adventures in which having them is essential to completing the quest but do outside of it
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Post by schlendrian on Feb 24, 2020 13:20:27 GMT
Jmisbest, the rule is not, that you are only allowed to carry 5 items all the time, just that you are only allowed to carry over 5 items inbetween adventures. So during City of Thieves you are allowed to carry as many items as you like, but once you have won, you have to select 5 items among all your possessions, to take with you to the next adventure(s).
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Post by jmisbest on Feb 24, 2020 13:47:08 GMT
Jmisbest, the rule is not, that you are only allowed to carry 5 items all the time, just that you are only allowed to carry over 5 items inbetween adventures. So during City of Thieves you are allowed to carry as many items as you like, but once you have won, you have to select 5 items among all your possessions, to take with you to the next adventure(s). Sorry about that, my mistake
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Post by jmisbest on Feb 24, 2020 13:58:47 GMT
3 things have just occurred to me. What are your thoughts?
In Warlock of Firetop Mountain the rules say that you have 2 doses of the potion you choose but it doesn't say whether its 1 bottle holding 2 doses or 2 bottles both holding 1 dose. What would you suggest if the player still has both doses after beating it?, is it 1 item? or 2 items? or not enough is known to tell for sure?
In The 4-part Sorcery Epic theirs loads, maybe dozens I can't remember, of Spell Ingredients, and a lot of Items that are vital at some point in the quest but you can only carry 5 item over from prior adventures. Do you think that it would it be fairer in this case to count Sorcery as 1 4-part Adventure?, that way you don't have to lose several potentially vital items after every book
In The 4-part Sorcery Epic if you mess up The ZEN Spell in Book 4 you can potentially go back to The Start of Book 1 yet still keep the items, clues, knowledge and info you gained before being sent back in time. If this happens does it count as starting adventure?, which means losing all but 5 items
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sylas
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Post by sylas on Feb 24, 2020 16:09:25 GMT
I didn't realize this would spark so many questions but I will do my best to answer some of them. Gabe Fandango- How about starting the challenge with Magehunter (FF57)? Starting at SK 7 and ST 14 would actually be the best stats to use for this unique book. And if you complete the book on the optimal path you get a Sacred Mace with +4 Attack Strength which will be a great help for later books.- This is a great idea and that +4 Attack Strength would be super handy. Although as Kieran pointed out, you are likely to run into a few problems that will prevent you from completing the book successfully.jmisbest- if you do Island of The Lizard King and get The Pouch of Unlimited Contents that can hold anything and everything that can fit inside it and not weight a thing that you only let it double the normal maximum number of items you can carry- That's reasonable so let's rule that the Pouch can hold another 5 Items increasing your capacity to 10 Items as long as you have the Pouch but the Pouch itself would count as one Item. I would also argue, however, that any Items placed in the Pouch are NOT active until you are able to bring them out (i.e. when you are not already in combat or performing any other task).kieran- (on Spellbreaker guards) it would be better if you could just surrender to them without fighting in the first place...- The Wizard edition of Spellbreaker actually fixes this so surrendering is now an option as well as several fights getting depowered. See link: gamebooks.org/contributions/ffw28_changes.htmljmisbest - How about not counting The Lantern and Suit of Leather Armour that The Main Character of almost every Book in The Series starts with?- Also reasonable. Lantern and Leather Armour that you begin with do not count towards limit.
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sylas
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Post by sylas on Feb 24, 2020 16:21:48 GMT
jmisbest - I let me take 800 Gold Coins in cash and 250 Gold Coins in both Gems and Jewellery from Zagors Chest in Warlock of Firetop Mountain, allow my character to keep The 10,000 Gold Coins prize from Deathtrap Dungeon but has to put it in A Bank - As stated in the rules 'The ‘Background’ does not affect you unless it is to give you a vitally important item (E.g. the Torch in Fangs of Fury), and neither do the endings (E.g. you don’t carry over 10000 gold pieces for completing Deathtrap Dungeon).'
- Belongings That don’t count against your 5 item limit , I started with 1 Sword, 1 suit of Leather Armour and 1 Lantern - The Lantern and Leather Armour no longer count as Items towards your limit. The Sword you carry does however.
- In Warlock of Firetop Mountain the rules say that you have 2 doses of the potion you choose but it doesn't say whether its 1 bottle holding 2 doses or 2 bottles both holding 1 dose. What would you suggest if the player still has both doses after beating it?, is it 1 item? or 2 items? or not enough is known to tell for sure? - It is 2 doses contained in one bottle so would count as 1 Item. If you drink one dose, it would still count as 1 Item.
- In The 4-part Sorcery Epic theirs loads, maybe dozens I can't remember, of Spell Ingredients, and a lot of Items that are vital at some point in the quest but you can only carry 5 item over from prior adventures. Do you think that it would it be fairer in this case to count Sorcery as 1 4-part Adventure?, that way you don't have to lose several potentially vital items after every book - The Sorcery epic is not part of the original 1-59 series so none of it would be allowed.
Hope that has covered all queries thus far.
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Post by jmisbest on Feb 24, 2020 16:25:12 GMT
Been having fun lately playing Fighting Fantasy books but with a difference. Using a single hero, can you go from Basic to Epic? * You begin with Skill 7, Stamina 14, Luck 7. Choose any book from the original series (so FF 1-59 only). Gain any items of equipment the book starts you with. If you complete it, choose another book and continue play using the same hero – leave your stats as they currently are. You may bring over up to 5 items in total from previously completed books. Do not count Provisions, Gold, Rings, Keys, Ammo, or Gems as items. Skip the ‘How To Fight’ and ‘Equipment’ sections (you don’t get extra provisions, gold, or potions). Any new rules must still be taken into account so, if you need to include a new attribute (such as FEAR), roll the dice as normal. If you gain any new SKILLS or Special Abilities, they will only apply for the book you are currently playing and do not carry over to the next books. The ‘Background’ does not affect you unless it is to give you a vitally important item (E.g. the Torch in Fangs of Fury), and neither do the endings (E.g. you don’t carry over 10000 gold pieces for completing Deathtrap Dungeon). Standard FF rules apply to ALL books so, do not mistake Skill additions with Attack Strength, or use loopholes where stats can go over the Initial limit. Lastly, Appointment With F.E.A.R cannot be chosen since you can begin with Skill 13. Your goal is to complete a book and achieve one of the following: have your Initial Skill or Luck at 13+, or your Initial Stamina at 25+. Play through as many books as you need to; the fewer books you play through to achieve your goal, the better your score. * NB – any further application of rules will be added to the current ones if necessary. May I suggest to whoever uses The Name Silas that as he or she, see later, has done such a good job of making rules for A Basic to Epic Campaign that only uses The 59 Books from 1st edition Fighting Fantasy that he, or she since in most if not all civilized countries theirs no law saying that Women can't try to prevent having their Identity stolen by using Men's names when online, makes some rules for A Basic to Epic Campaign using only The 7 Books set on Titan that were released in editions other then 1st?
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Post by jmisbest on Feb 24, 2020 16:30:17 GMT
jmisbest- I let me take 800 Gold Coins in cash and 250 Gold Coins in both Gems and Jewellery from Zagors Chest in Warlock of Firetop Mountain, allow my character to keep The 10,000 Gold Coins prize from Deathtrap Dungeon but has to put it in A Bank- As stated in the rules 'The ‘Background’ does not affect you unless it is to give you a vitally important item (E.g. the Torch in Fangs of Fury), and neither do the endings (E.g. you don’t carry over 10000 gold pieces for completing Deathtrap Dungeon).'- Belongings That don’t count against your 5 item limit , I started with 1 Sword, 1 suit of Leather Armour and 1 Lantern- The Lantern and Leather Armour no longer count as Items towards your limit. The Sword you carry does however.- In Warlock of Firetop Mountain the rules say that you have 2 doses of the potion you choose but it doesn't say whether its 1 bottle holding 2 doses or 2 bottles both holding 1 dose. What would you suggest if the player still has both doses after beating it?, is it 1 item? or 2 items? or not enough is known to tell for sure?- It is 2 doses contained in one bottle so would count as 1 Item. If you drink one dose, it would still count as 1 Item.- In The 4-part Sorcery Epic theirs loads, maybe dozens I can't remember, of Spell Ingredients, and a lot of Items that are vital at some point in the quest but you can only carry 5 item over from prior adventures. Do you think that it would it be fairer in this case to count Sorcery as 1 4-part Adventure?, that way you don't have to lose several potentially vital items after every book- The Sorcery epic is not part of the original 1-59 series so none of it would be allowed.Hope that has covered all queries thus far. Sorry Sorcery was released during that time the 1st 59 were so I assumed it counted. Sorry. My mistake. Also you've unknowingly answered another question of mine before I even had time to write it. Thanks
Also on the subject of Deathtrap Dungeon's Prize I assumed that you meant that you couldn't have it on you but could put it in a bank or store it with Family and Friends were, in theory, it could be safe until you retired and could then use it to fund A semi-luxurious Retirement. Sorry. My mistake
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sylas
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Post by sylas on Feb 24, 2020 16:37:44 GMT
May I suggest to whoever uses The Name Silas that as he or she, see later, has done such a good job of making rules for A Basic to Epic Campaign that only uses The 59 Books from 1st edition Fighting Fantasy that he, or she since in most if not all civilized countries theirs no law saying that Women can't try to prevent having their Identity stolen by using Men's names when online, makes some rules for A Basic to Epic Campaign using only The 7 Books set on Titan that were released in editions other then 1st? Thanks (I think). I'm not sure if I'm getting you. If you're suggesting that I should copyright my ideas in case of someone stealing them, I'm not worried. This 'challenge' was designed just to be a bit of fun. If anyone wants to expand on this, make the rules clearer or better in some way, be my guest. But please mention my name as the 'designer' just as a bit of common courtesy. In addition, I've also posted this elsewhere so people are already aware that I am the designer. Of course, if this isn't what you meant at all, then my bad
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Post by jmisbest on Feb 24, 2020 16:43:03 GMT
Thanks (I think). I'm not sure if I'm getting you. If you're suggesting that I should copyright my ideas in case of someone stealing them, I'm not worried. This 'challenge' was designed just to be a bit of fun. If anyone wants to expand on this, make the rules clearer or better in some way, be my guest. But please mention my name as the 'designer' just as a bit of common courtesy. In addition, I've also posted this elsewhere so people are already aware that I am the designer. Of course, if this isn't what you meant at all, then my bad I mean all of that as a complement and am suggesting that cos of it been far easier to complete A Basic to Epic Challenge that only uses The 8 Books set on Titan that weren't in 1st edition then it is, would be, using The 59 Books from 1st edition that, in my opinion, you are the best person for job
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sylas
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Post by sylas on Feb 24, 2020 16:47:00 GMT
The Sorcery series and the more recent books (Howl of the Werewolf etc) I left out because they provide way too many useful effects and stat increases. There wouldn't be much of a challenge if I included them.
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Post by jmisbest on Feb 24, 2020 16:49:31 GMT
The Sorcery series and the more recent books (Howl of the Werewolf etc) I left out because they provide way too many useful effects and stat increases. There wouldn't be much of a challenge if I included them. That's why I suggested making a challenge that only uses those and the other later Books and also stated that, in my opinion, you are the person that's got the best chance at succeeding at this, likely a lot greater, challenge
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Post by schlendrian on Feb 24, 2020 16:53:46 GMT
Some spoiler-heavy musings on this, Black Vein Prophecy, Spellbreaker, Knights of Doom and The Crimson Tide: Well,how about this: Forest, Scorpion Swamp and then Magehunter? After the first two books, you might be on Luck = 10, which gives you about a one in three chance (slightly less) according to Champskee's stats. So this is most likely not the optimal path to handle this challenge, but I think viable and interesting as that mace would open up a lot of possibilities.
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Post by jmisbest on Feb 24, 2020 17:07:14 GMT
My brother has been working on charts, but he refuses to let me post them due to him having a paranoid fear of someone nicking his ideas, to use in any Fighting Fantasy Campaign, not just A Basic to Epic Campaign, for determing loot and rewards after the likes of Warlock of Firetop Mountain, Demons of The Deep and Master of Chaos and while even the lowest roll on the relevant will easily net you cash and loot worth close to a 1,000 Gold Coins but it also means that you must store at least 95% of the cash and all the loot in a bank or with Friends and Family were, in theory, they'll be safe until you retire and can be used to fund a retirement that's both very cosy and very luxurious
Ooops forgot to mention that he's also made charts, but again but he refuses to let me post them due to him having a paranoid fear of someone nicking his ideas, for determining the value of things such as The Jewel called The Eye of The Cyclops from Warlock of Firetop Mountain, The Black Pearls and Jade Crown Demons of The Deep and The Gold Talismen with The Symbol of The Sun on it from Master of Chaos
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sylas
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Post by sylas on Feb 24, 2020 17:24:54 GMT
The Sorcery series and the more recent books (Howl of the Werewolf etc) I left out because they provide way too many useful effects and stat increases. There wouldn't be much of a challenge if I included them. That's why I suggested making a challenge that only uses those and the other later Books and also stated that, in my opinion, you are the person that's got the best chance at succeeding at this, likely a lot greater, challenge It won't be a greater challenge because with the Sorcery series alone, I would be able to make it to Epic level on Luck. The challenge I set out has loads of variations to go from Basic to Epic. There's a couple of books I used to achieve this that haven't even been mentioned yet, so there's also a game in identifying which books will allow you to make these progressions, which ones will help you with items, and which ones give zero gain for completing them.
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Post by jmisbest on Feb 24, 2020 17:40:00 GMT
I have a few questions about my planned 6th and 7th adventures. Can you help? On my planned 6th adventure
I'm thinking of doing Revenge of The Vampire as this adventure due to the fact that when drinking The Potion that boosts your stats in Heydrichs Mansion I'll give up 3 Luck Points and hope I roll either A 8 or A 9. Is using that advanced knowledge classed as cheating?
On that subject my character has close to 200 Gold Coins at this point and can easily get enough to have a little over 200 Gold Coins buy the time you leave the monastery but the best route through the Book means you must buy A Horse off of A Farmer but he wants all(?) my Gold, which could easily be a little over 200 Gold Coins. So is lowering it to a mere(?) 3D6+20 Gold Coins(which is still at least 23 Gold Coins and still quite a bit more then 1 10th my Gold) reasonable?
On my planned 7th adventure I'm thinking of doing Spellbreaker as this adventure and as it could potentially be of quite a lot of use in later adventures as The Falcon that in order to get the best ending you have to buy is sat on your shoulder and is a animal and your rules says items does it count against the 5 item limit?
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sylas
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Post by sylas on Feb 24, 2020 18:10:42 GMT
For Revenge of the Vampire that fore-knowledge isn't cheating. The Horse I would rule that you only need to spend 8GP. Careful with that book as its full of errors. Spellbreaker I would count the Falcon as an item.
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Post by a moderator on Feb 24, 2020 18:48:41 GMT
kieran- (on Spellbreaker guards) it would be better if you could just surrender to them without fighting in the first place...- The Wizard edition of Spellbreaker actually fixes this so surrendering is now an option as well as several fights getting depowered. See link: gamebooks.org/contributions/ffw28_changes.html Regrettably, the Wizard edition botched the fix. The surrender option is only available if you're leaving via the West Gate, but you can't get an essential item unless you take the South Gate, and on that path you have to fare poorly in the fight. Or pretend that the edit was made in the right place, and choose to surrender even though the book doesn't give you the opportunity there.
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sylas
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Post by sylas on Feb 24, 2020 22:51:05 GMT
kieran- (on Spellbreaker guards) it would be better if you could just surrender to them without fighting in the first place...- The Wizard edition of Spellbreaker actually fixes this so surrendering is now an option as well as several fights getting depowered. See link: gamebooks.org/contributions/ffw28_changes.html Regrettably, the Wizard edition botched the fix. The surrender option is only available if you're leaving via the West Gate, but you can't get an essential item unless you take the South Gate, and on that path you have to fare poorly in the fight. Or pretend that the edit was made in the right place, and choose to surrender even though the book doesn't give you the opportunity there. Just checked it and you're right. That is vexing. I think for the purpose of this challenge I will allow the option of surrender at section 269 to go to section 25.
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