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Post by Gabe Fandango on Feb 25, 2020 1:41:20 GMT
How about starting the challenge with Magehunter (FF57)? Starting at SK 7 and ST 14 would actually be the best stats to use for this unique book. And if you complete the book on the optimal path you get a Sacred Mace with +4 Attack Strength which will be a great help for later books. Some spoiler-heavy musings on this, Black Vein Prophecy, Spellbreaker, Knights of Doom and The Crimson Tide: The problem with taking a min stats character through Magehunter is high Luck helps a lot in that book. According to Champskees' stats, a 7/14/7 character has 0% chance of beating the book while a 7/14/12 character has a 46% chance. But yeah Magehunter would be very hard to do if it's left too late in the sequence. Doing Forest of Doom first to get your Luck to 8 by gulping down the Potion of Fortune would be helpful but probably insufficient. Skill is irrelevant in Magehunter so a book which increased your Skill and Luck would be fine, but anything that increased your Stamina would hurt your chances.
Black Vein Prophecy unfortunately has the opposite problem - you want a low Luck but high Skill and Stamina. To do that one, you'd first need to build your stats up then find some way to penalise your Luck. It's very hard to see a scenario where you could beat both books in the same run - maybe they're both best avoided entirely!
Spellbreaker and Knights of Doom are also problematic if your Skill is too high (although I understand this isn't an issue with KoD if you're really good at decryption - sadly I'm not!). Something like the +4AS Mace would actually be really useful for Spellbreaker since you could use it on all the uber-hard fights but not bother with the fight you're meant to struggle with. Actually come to think about it, do the rules for Spellbreaker penalise you for fighting barehanded? If so, that could be a way for a high Skill character to get round that fight with the guards. It would even make sense from a role-playing perspective to as you might want to hold back against law enforcement types. Of course, it would be better if you could just surrender to them without fighting in the first place...
The Crimson Tide is another problematic one (damn Paul Mason and his unconventional designs!) and probably one that should be done very early on if at all. A min stats character should have no problem with the fights which are aimed at someone weaker than someone starting off as 7/14/7, and the plethora of ways to boost your stats would actually make this a very helpful book. The main problem is the higher your Stamina, the higher your Ferocity. A Stamina 14 character would have a starting Ferocity of 8-13. The correct path boosts your Ferocity by 1 and then requires you to fail a Ferocity roll. This means a Stamina 14 character would have a 4.6% chance of failing that roll. The rest of the book (provided you know the true path) would be plain sailing and you'd come out of it a he-man, but those are slim odds!
I don't agree that "SKILL is irrelevant in Magehunter" since you do need to survive a fight with the villain in your own body. Granted, his SKILL is -2 of yours and you have the mace to balance that out, but you have to fight him in a body with SKILL 6 at most, so starting at SKILL 12 is certainly not that favourable. But yeah, I did forget to consider LUCK. Maybe trying Forest of Doom and Keep of the Lich Lord first to gain a plethora of LUCK bonuses combined from those books would help.I'm not even going to consider bugged books like Knights of Doom or Spellbreaker where you're doomed if your SKILL is too high OR too low!For Crimson Tide, I actually don't recall there being any corelation between Ferocity and Stamina? I need to check on that, but for some reason I just remember it to be something similar to the other stats where you roll dice and add a fixed number.
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Post by Gabe Fandango on Feb 25, 2020 2:18:57 GMT
Ok, I just double-checked the rules for Crimson Tide and yeah, that STAMINA/Ferocity relation can really screw the player over. So I guess an appropriate formula would be:
1) Get the books with LUCK boosts first (Forest of Doom, Keep of the Lich Lord, Scorpion Swamp....can't remember if there are others).
2) Magehunter for the +4 AS bonus.
3) Crimson Tide for Stamina boosts as you "grow up" (I think there's a minor Skill boost too)
4) Focus on the other books with SKILL boosts?
When your Skill is adequately high, there's also Tower of Destruction which can boost your STAMINA straight to 25.
Another note:
I just realize that if you start with a "non-standard" book that doesn't give you any starting Provisions you might have a major disadvantage later since you'll be starting with none when you play a book that uses them. Granted, usually you can buy/pick up meals during those games, but still...
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Post by jmisbest on Feb 25, 2020 4:33:01 GMT
My younger brother asks what's the point of doing potentially loads of Books in The Basic to Epic Challenge when he has found a way that is underhanded, sneaky and clever yet 100% legit in which The Players character could potentially beat it in only 2 Books by doing the following. What should I tell my younger brother about this?
Do Demons of The Deep were using The Sacred Baths even if even all 4 Dice only come up The average roll on A D6 of 3 still raises both Skill and Luck from 7 to 9 and Stamina 18, you get at least +1 Skill from Cyano, have a decent chance of getting +1 Skill from The Genie and get +1 Attack Strength, not Skill from The Jewelled Gauntlets and A Magic Amulet that lets you auto pass 1 Luck Test
Then do Tower of Destruction with stats that even on if all 4 Dice rolls came up the average of 3 still gives Skill of 10 to 12 with no modifiers and 11 to 13 with all modifiers, A Stamina of 18 and A Luck of 9 with 1 guaranteed successful Luck Test and during it you can get A Ice Sword that if you choose the right bonus will even if you reroll for Skill only came up The average roll on A D6 of 3 still means you have A Skill of between 10 and 12 with no modifiers and 13 to 15 with all modifiers and if you get the highest possible honour in The Book your Stamina raises to 25 and wins you the game in only 2 books
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Feb 25, 2020 10:14:48 GMT
I just realize that if you start with a "non-standard" book that doesn't give you any starting Provisions you might have a major disadvantage later since you'll be starting with none when you play a book that uses them. Granted, usually you can buy/pick up meals during those games, but still... That could definitely be an issue with Keith Martin books with the insistence you must eat a meal to prevent Stamina loss.
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Feb 25, 2020 10:43:17 GMT
My younger brother asks what's the point of doing potentially loads of Books in The Basic to Epic Challenge when he has found a way that is underhanded, sneaky and clever yet 100% legit in which The Players character could potentially beat it in only 2 Books by doing the following. What should I tell my younger brother about this?
Do Demons of The Deep were using The Sacred Baths even if even all 4 Dice only come up The average roll on A D6 of 3 still raises both Skill and Luck from 7 to 9 and Stamina 18, you get at least +1 Skill from Cyano, have a decent chance of getting +1 Skill from The Genie and get +1 Attack Strength, not Skill from The Jewelled Gauntlets and A Magic Amulet that lets you auto pass 1 Luck Test
Then do Tower of Destruction with stats that even on if all 4 Dice rolls came up the average of 3 still gives Skill of 10 to 12 with no modifiers and 11 to 13 with all modifiers, A Stamina of 18 and A Luck of 9 with 1 guaranteed successful Luck Test and during it you can get A Ice Sword that if you choose the right bonus will even if you reroll for Skill only came up The average roll on A D6 of 3 still means you have A Skill of between 10 and 12 with no modifiers and 13 to 15 with all modifiers and if you get the highest possible honour in The Book your Stamina raises to 25 and wins you the game in only 2 books
Sounds like he's on to something! Of course, you'd have to know both books very well and make your provisions last over both of them.
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Post by jmisbest on Feb 25, 2020 12:52:10 GMT
My younger brother asks what's the point of doing potentially loads of Books in The Basic to Epic Challenge when he has found a way that is underhanded, sneaky and clever yet 100% legit in which The Players character could potentially beat it in only 2 Books by doing the following. What should I tell my younger brother about this?
Do Demons of The Deep were using The Sacred Baths even if even all 4 Dice only come up The average roll on A D6 of 3 still raises both Skill and Luck from 7 to 9 and Stamina 18, you get at least +1 Skill from Cyano, have a decent chance of getting +1 Skill from The Genie and get +1 Attack Strength, not Skill from The Jewelled Gauntlets and A Magic Amulet that lets you auto pass 1 Luck Test
Then do Tower of Destruction with stats that even on if all 4 Dice rolls came up the average of 3 still gives Skill of 10 to 12 with no modifiers and 11 to 13 with all modifiers, A Stamina of 18 and A Luck of 9 with 1 guaranteed successful Luck Test and during it you can get A Ice Sword that if you choose the right bonus will even if you reroll for Skill only came up The average roll on A D6 of 3 still means you have A Skill of between 10 and 12 with no modifiers and 13 to 15 with all modifiers and if you get the highest possible honour in The Book your Stamina raises to 25 and wins you the game in only 2 books
Sorry I've just realized that twice I meant to put my best friends younger brother but due to being very tired, half-asleep and paying less attention then I normally do I put my younger brother by mistake. My mistake. Sorry
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sylas
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"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Feb 25, 2020 15:13:27 GMT
The Demons of the Deep strategy has been hinted at very near the start of this thread, where I also mentioned it would be a boring way to achieve the goal as you don't go through a journey. Legit, but boring.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Feb 26, 2020 17:06:22 GMT
As a bonus challenge for those who made it to Epic, see if you can go from Basic to Epic again but this time you must raise a different attribute to Epic level AND you may not use any of the books you successfully completed the first time round. (And, yes, it is possible.)
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Post by peasantscribbler on Feb 28, 2020 2:42:57 GMT
Another six-attempt effort got me through Legend of the Shadow Warriors. After my first three attempts I thought it might be too hard to win, but then I changed my route and figured it out.
Attempt 1: killed by First Shadow Warrior (at the end); Attempt 2: killed by Dark Elf Cultist; Attempt 3: killed by Voivod; Attempt 4: turned into a frog; Attempt 5: killed by Mandrakes; Attempt 6: was gifted the Ring of Destiny and the rest fell into place.
My current standing:
Skill: Initial=8, Current=8 Stamina: Initial=14, Current=12 Luck: Initial=10, Current=10
Provisions=20 Gold=71 Brass Ring Ring of Destiny (whenever lucky at testing your luck you do not have to subtract a luck point) Luck Spell Gem (restores lost luck points equal to half your initial luck score)
Five Items 1) sword 2) gauntlet of weapon strength (+1 to attack strength) 3) Hand of Glory (-1 stamina at the start of any battle and all opponents -1 skill for the duration of the battle) 4) Chain of Argolis (bind any single opponent at the start of any battle) 5) lantern
I acquired a lantern and provisions, so I’m off to Firetop Mountain.
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Post by Gabe Fandango on Feb 28, 2020 3:36:54 GMT
As a bonus challenge for those who made it to Epic, see if you can go from Basic to Epic again but this time you must raise a different attribute to Epic level AND you may not use any of the books you successfully completed the first time round. (And, yes, it is possible.)
I just realized I actually misread the original win-condition of the challenge - I thought one is supposed to get ALL 3 stats to 13/25/13 to win (and that's certainly possible too)!
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Post by jmisbest on Feb 28, 2020 4:24:16 GMT
I've now gotten 10 Adventures under my characters belt and after several I've used charts I made based off of those a friend's brother made that I won't share and which I used to determine loot and/or reward got after certain adventures that can't be kept with you and has to be safely stored for your retirement, with the same happening after Deathtrap Dungeon. Here are my stats and adventures done. Which would you suggest I do next?
My characters stats are Skill 12, Stamina 17, Luck 11 and Faith 23 with no modifiers, Skill 17, Stamina 17, Luck 11 and Faith 23 with all modifiers and never loses A Luck Point after Testing my Luck
My completed Adventures are Moonrunner, Warlock of Firetop Mountain, Scorpion Swamp on The Good Side, Deathtrap Dungeon, Demons of The Deep, Legend of The Shadow Warriors, Revenge of The Vampire, Spellbreaker, Scorpion Swamp on The Neutral Side and Forest of Doom that took 3 playthroughs
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Post by jmisbest on Feb 28, 2020 4:52:01 GMT
A few days back I beat Revenge of The Vampire as part of The Basic to Epic and during it I got The 2 Large Cheese's that count as 3 meals and I want to know if they count as food and don't take up a item allowance slot? or if they count as a item and do take up a item allowance slot?
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Post by jmisbest on Feb 28, 2020 6:17:00 GMT
Is it a reasonable change that if you beat Deathtrap Dungeon in Basic to Epic that in a way you get to claim the prize but you can't keep and rather you have to safely store it with either Skumvit or family or friends were it will be safe until you retire?
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Feb 28, 2020 16:35:12 GMT
Jmisbest I'd say food of any type should be treated like provisions. You've done Scorpion Swamp twice which shouldn't count. And Deathtrap Dungeon is a trap as you get absolutely nothing from it.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Feb 28, 2020 16:40:31 GMT
Is it a reasonable change that if you beat Deathtrap Dungeon in Basic to Epic that in a way you get to claim the prize but you can't keep and rather you have to safely store it with either Skumvit or family or friends were it will be safe until you retire? Do with it what you will, it's all just flavour if it doesn't affect the challenge.
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Post by jmisbest on Feb 28, 2020 17:21:31 GMT
Jmisbest I'd say food of any type should be treated like provisions. You've done Scorpion Swamp twice which shouldn't count. And Deathtrap Dungeon is a trap as you get absolutely nothing from it. I thought that it was do each adventure once and that as The 3 Quests in Scorpion Swamp any mini adventures within a adventure that it was only just within the rules. Am I wrong?
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Post by jmisbest on Feb 28, 2020 17:22:52 GMT
Who wants to see my current stuff at the end of my 10th adventure?
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Post by jmisbest on Feb 28, 2020 17:25:44 GMT
As I know the way to get the best ending in Sword of The Samurai and the permanent stat boosts from learning and using The Secret of Singing Death will make my character epic in all 4 stats should I do that now and win The Basic to Epic Challenge? or as I'm having loads of should I keep going for now?
Post Options
Basic to Epic
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Post by jmisbest on Feb 28, 2020 17:36:14 GMT
A question each about Faith and Honor
I've done Spellbreaker then Revenge of The Vampire and did I do the right thing by carrying over my Faith?
I've done A Variant of Sword of The Samurai and the variant is that you're a 100% honorable wandering Sword-For-Hire who will take almost any job that doesn't benefit Evil or Chaos, The Shoguns Champion is your older brother, he is recovering from Injuries took saving The Shogun from A Assassin. Will it be the right think if I do either Night Dragon or Knights of Doom at a later date and carry over The Honor of 7 that I finished Sword of The Samurai with
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Feb 28, 2020 23:52:54 GMT
Jmisbest I'd say food of any type should be treated like provisions. You've done Scorpion Swamp twice which shouldn't count. And Deathtrap Dungeon is a trap as you get absolutely nothing from it. I thought that it was do each adventure once and that as The 3 Quests in Scorpion Swamp any mini adventures within a adventure that it was only just within the rules. Am I wrong? 3 different quests; same book. If you did all three quests you would end up with about 9+ attribute-restoring Spell gems and fully heal each time. Yes, that's cheating. Same as if I did Robot Commando for the 3 different endings, or Legend of Zagor using the four different heroes. Also, while I can appreciate your enthusiasm, if you wouldn't mind, please try not to pose each and every statement as a question.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Feb 28, 2020 23:55:38 GMT
A question each about Faith and Honor
I've done Spellbreaker then Revenge of The Vampire and did I do the right thing by carrying over my Faith?
I've done A Variant of Sword of The Samurai and the variant is that you're a 100% honorable wandering Sword-For-Hire who will take almost any job that doesn't benefit Evil or Chaos, The Shoguns Champion is your older brother, he is recovering from Injuries took saving The Shogun from A Assassin. Will it be the right think if I do either Night Dragon or Knights of Doom at a later date and carry over The Honor of 7 that I finished Sword of The Samurai with Stats other than the basic Skill, Stamina, and Luck do not carry over. Roll for them each time you start a different book or start at the level stated in the book.
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Post by peasantscribbler on Feb 29, 2020 2:14:36 GMT
The Warlock of Firetop Mountain wasn’t difficult to complete in one attempt with my upgraded stats and gear. The only notable discovery was that the enchanted sword increases initial skill by 2 points “as long as you use this sword.” I assume that if I ever give this sword up that I will have to reduce my initial skill back 2 points. I will try The Keep of the Lich-Lord next.
My current standing:
Skill: Initial=10, Current=10 Stamina: Initial=14, Current=14 Luck: Initial=10, Current=10
Provisions=17 Gold=76 Brass Ring Ring of Destiny (whenever lucky at testing your luck you do not have to subtract a luck point) Luck Spell Gem (restores lost luck points equal to half your initial luck score) Eye of the Cyclops jewel
Five Items 1) enchanted sword (+2 to initial skill) 2) gauntlet of weapon strength (+1 to attack strength) 3) Hand of Glory (-1 stamina at the start of any battle and all opponents -1 skill for the duration of the battle) 4) Chain of Argolis (bind any single opponent at the start of any battle) 5) lantern
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Post by jmisbest on Feb 29, 2020 14:10:40 GMT
I thought that it was do each adventure once and that as The 3 Quests in Scorpion Swamp any mini adventures within a adventure that it was only just within the rules. Am I wrong? 3 different quests; same book. If you did all three quests you would end up with about 9+ attribute-restoring Spell gems and fully heal each time. Yes, that's cheating. Same as if I did Robot Commando for the 3 different endings, or Legend of Zagor using the four different heroes. Also, while I can appreciate your enthusiasm, if you wouldn't mind, please try not to pose each and every statement as a question. Ooops sorry I thought that 3 different quests in 1 Book means that it could be done once per quest. Sorry
Also I have or had lots of questions on this. Sorry
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Post by jmisbest on Feb 29, 2020 14:16:15 GMT
Is their enough Books in The 1st 59 Books with enough permanent stat gains in which your character is definitely for The Cause of Good rather then being neutral or being a criminal or otherwise on the wrong side of the law for it to be possible to beat The Basic to Epic Challenge using only that type of Book?
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Feb 29, 2020 15:53:38 GMT
Is their enough Books in The 1st 59 Books with enough permanent stat gains in which your character is definitely for The Cause of Good rather then being neutral or being a criminal or otherwise on the wrong side of the law for it to be possible to beat The Basic to Epic Challenge using only that type of Book? Possibly but not sure. Warlock of Firetop Mountain alone has you kill an old man in his home and steal his treasure just because you heard a rumour that he was bad.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Feb 29, 2020 16:02:34 GMT
I'm going to pose a couple of questions of my own for a change as I need your guy's opinions so that it stays fair:
Can the Chain of Argolis bind anything or does it have to be within reason still? (E.g. Would it be able to bind a Dragon or Demon or Giant?)
When you trade/sell items with a value, do you gain any number of items worth that value in return, or do you only exchange on a one to one basis? (E.g. With the Eye of the Cyclops worth 50 Gold, can I buy all the items in Knights of Doom's market stalls up to 50 gold?)
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Post by jmisbest on Feb 29, 2020 16:19:23 GMT
I'm going to pose a couple of questions of my own for a change as I need your guy's opinions so that it stays fair: Can the Chain of Argolis the Chain of Argolis bind anything or does it have to be within reason still? (E.g. Would it be able to bind a Dragon or Demon or Giant?) When you trade/sell items with a value, do you gain any number of items worth that value in return, or do you only exchange on a one to one basis? (E.g. With the Eye of the Cyclops worth 50 Gold, can I buy all the items in Knights of Doom's market stalls up to 50 gold?) On the subject of the Chain of Argolis I'd say no and on the subject of the Eye of the Cyclops in Knights of Doom I'd say as no Book says that you can't that you can
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Post by peasantscribbler on Mar 1, 2020 3:27:48 GMT
I'm going to pose a couple of questions of my own for a change as I need your guy's opinions so that it stays fair: Can the Chain of Argolis bind anything or does it have to be within reason still? (E.g. Would it be able to bind a Dragon or Demon or Giant?) When you trade/sell items with a value, do you gain any number of items worth that value in return, or do you only exchange on a one to one basis? (E.g. With the Eye of the Cyclops worth 50 Gold, can I buy all the items in Knights of Doom's market stalls up to 50 gold?) I was also thinking about whether there should be some restriction on using the Chain of Argolis. On the one hand, it was binding Argolis, who is described as "an invincible Demothrax" and who is clearly some sort of demon. On the other hand, Moonrunner restricts you from using it to bind Karam Gruul. Maybe there should be a restriction on using it against any book's primary antagonist? I'm not familiar enough with the market in Knights of Doom to answer your second question. I think that most books that give you the option of selling something tell you what it is specifically that you can sell, but maybe Knights of Doom or some other book gives more leeway. I honestly kept the Eye of the Cyclops on my list as a souvenir, and I wasn't even thinking of selling it. (I kept the Brass Ring from Scorpion Swamp for the same reason.)
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Post by peasantscribbler on Mar 1, 2020 3:30:21 GMT
The Keep of the Lich-Lord put me over the top, even though I played a pretty sub-par game after I got into the keep. I chose to fight Mortis rather than use the Chain of Argolis to bind him, and it was almost a disaster. Here’s how I finished up:
Skill: Initial=10, Current=9 Stamina: Initial=14, Current=5 Luck: Initial=14, Current=14
Provisions=11 Gold=120 Brass Ring Ring of Destiny (whenever lucky at testing your luck you do not have to subtract a luck point) Ring of Communing Luck Spell Gem (restores lost luck points equal to half your initial luck score) Eye of the Cyclops jewel
Five Items 1) enchanted sword (+2 to initial skill) 2) gauntlet of weapon strength (+1 to attack strength) 3) Hand of Glory (-1 stamina at the start of any battle and all opponents -1 skill for the duration of the battle) 4) Chain of Argolis (bind any single opponent at the start of any battle) 5) polished shield (-1 skill for any single undead opponent)
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Post by jmisbest on Mar 1, 2020 8:54:45 GMT
Over a sleepless night I beat both The Keep of The Liche Lord for my 11th adventure and Sword of The Samurai as my 12th adventure and due to how much fun I'm having I deliberately avoided doing the things that would win me The Basic to Epic Challenge by taking 1 or more stats to Epic Level. Did I do the right thing in choosing to keep doing The Basic to Epic Challenge rather then winning it?
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