vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Jul 29, 2020 9:56:40 GMT
Brilliant books... City of thieves, deathtrap dungeon, caverns of the snow witch, trial of champions, crypt of the sorcerer... Weaker after books... Armies of death, return to firetop mountain, blood of zombies, port of peril... That makes me wonder of a more generic question... Why does a man loses his touch?
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jul 29, 2020 14:41:14 GMT
The man's done lots of things that aren't FF related so he's not committed to just one project. It's a different target audience as well now so the writing is much simpler than his early work. You might like Assassins of Allansia if you haven't read it yet.
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Post by linflas on Jul 29, 2020 15:10:21 GMT
Bad books are due to lazyness, i think. He follows the same recipe that worked in Deathtrap, again and again. And when he tries something different (like Armies of Death), he reaches his limits. Anyway, I found Port of Peril better than I thought at first sight, and hope a lot for Assassins.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Jul 31, 2020 20:55:23 GMT
He follows the same recipe that worked in Deathtrap, again and again. That may well be at the heart of it. I think he should have had a look at what other FF writers or even his competitors were doing, like Jamie Thomson and Joe Dever, because he might have learned something from them. The books of his that we think most highly of tend to be the earlier ones. Why? Perhaps he was doing more roleplaying in those days and it affected his books in a positive way? Perhaps he got a bit complacent and, knowing all his books would be published, was content to not put in as much effort in the later ones. A workman who has been doing a job for a long time can become like this. Doing the 'bare minimum' he knows will be acceptable. Having said all this, I still enjoy most of his books.
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Aug 7, 2020 18:37:43 GMT
He follows the same recipe that worked in Deathtrap, again and again. That may well be at the heart of it. I think he should have had a look at what other FF writers or even his competitors were doing, like Jamie Thomson and Joe Dever, because he might have learned something from them. The books of his that we think most highly of tend to be the earlier ones. Why? Perhaps he was doing more roleplaying in those days and it affected his books in a positive way? Perhaps he got a bit complacent and, knowing all his books would be published, was content to not put in as much effort in the later ones. A workman who has been doing a job for a long time can become like this. Doing the 'bare minimum' he knows will be acceptable. Having said all this, I still enjoy most of his books. I believe in one of the Fighting Fantasy Fest panels on Youtube he states that he never read gamebooks by other authors? If true that would seem to explain volumes.
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Post by The Count on Aug 9, 2020 22:46:52 GMT
Looking at what Livingstone books I like: Temple of Terror Trial of Champions Return to Firetop Mountain
and then looking at how many of his books I dislike: Blood of the Zombies Port of Peril Forest of Doom Crypt of the Sorcerer Assassins of Allansia Island of the Lizard King Freeway Fighter Caverns of the Snow Witch
The problem is that they are all so linear and rammed full of unsubtle references to his previous books and sailing team that they aren't enjoyable - especially if you miss the one route to victory as it's blatantly obvious after Forest if you aren't on the true path (see Deathtrap: you go down the corridor and avoid a trap, then see a chute - weeee - you are at the blood beast and will die on the next paragraph. Compared with: visit an empty room (optional but can kill you) avoid the troglodytes, get the (essentially useless) monkey charm, visit the old man with the basket, bore the troll, kill the dogs, be injured by the tentacle in the grille, fight the pit fiend (only avoidable if you have fixed dice that will still kill you in Crypt...), be ambushed by the improbably teleporting Ninja, then the chute... weeee... lose a few stamina points before inexplicably killing the blood beast...
When he gets the atmosphere right, the linear gameplay is forgivable. Unfortunately, he regularly writes the kind of self celebratory crud that would be derided if it was fan fiction...
As one of the main authors, and one of the most prolific, I think he gets a pass from most FF fans despite being behind the worst excuses for gamebooks ever written. The fact that he had to have Carl / Keith ghost write for him and took the rights of every other author speaks volumes...
I don't think Steve is any better - as at least Ian bothered writing FF beyond the first 3 years and didn't excrete anything as derivative as the incomplete Starship Traveller...
(I don't mind City of Thieves, Deathtrap Dungeon or Armies of Death but they are so badly written in places that I can't enjoy them beyond one occasional playthrough)
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 9, 2020 23:33:24 GMT
Looking at what Livingstone books I like: Temple of Terror Trial of Champions Return to Firetop Mountain and then looking at how many of his books I dislike: Blood of the Zombies Port of Peril Forest of Doom Crypt of the Sorcerer Assassins of Allansia Island of the Lizard King Freeway Fighter Caverns of the Snow Witch The problem is that they are all so linear and rammed full of unsubtle references to his previous books and sailing team that they aren't enjoyable - especially if you miss the one route to victory as it's blatantly obvious after Forest if you aren't on the true path (see Deathtrap: you go down the corridor and avoid a trap, then see a chute - weeee - you are at the blood beast and will die on the next paragraph. Compared with: visit an empty room (optional but can kill you) avoid the troglodytes, get the (essentially useless) monkey charm, visit the old man with the basket, bore the troll, kill the dogs, be injured by the tentacle in the grille, fight the pit fiend (only avoidable if you have fixed dice that will still kill you in Crypt...), be ambushed by the improbably teleporting Ninja, then the chute... weeee... lose a few stamina points before inexplicably killing the blood beast... When he gets the atmosphere right, the linear gameplay is forgivable. Unfortunately, he regularly writes the kind of self celebratory crud that would be derided if it was fan fiction... As one of the main authors, and one of the most prolific, I think he gets a pass from most FF fans despite being behind the worst excuses for gamebooks ever written. The fact that he had to have Carl / Keith ghost write for him and took the rights of every other author speaks volumes... I don't think Steve is any better - as at least Ian bothered writing FF beyond the first 3 years and didn't excrete anything as derivative as the incomplete Starship Traveller... (I don't mind City of Thieves, Deathtrap Dungeon or Armies of Death but they are so badly written in places that I can't enjoy them beyond one occasional playthrough) It's weird when you compare the ones you like with the ones you don't mind but see as badly written in places. The ones you do like are far more linear and restrictive in design and more unfair than City and Dungeon at least.
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Post by The Count on Aug 12, 2020 11:00:24 GMT
Linear books are fine if they are atmospheric and feel more like a puzzle than a slog, which is what I find for the three I like. Same with Slaves, Siege, BVP which I love.
Admittedly, if it wasn't for the DEATH letters, Temple wouldn't have that extra tension which saves it (and there is a bit of nostalgia as it was one of the first FF books I read).
With City, I loathe the Bays Ball bit and it takes me out of the story completely - and I don't think you can bypass it. Until then, it is a great book. Deathtrap is obvious when you have left the true path, and the enforced friendship with another contestant doesn't work for me - plus there are too many humans wandering round! Armies (the worst of the three) falls apart completely at the end and the bit about his sailing team. I'll probably add this to the list of dislikes by the time I've read it again.
I like his section of Warlock better than Steves, except putting a key with an instant win item, as it's not clear what path you should choose until you find that section.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,462
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 12, 2020 13:04:14 GMT
With City, I loathe the Bays Ball bit and it takes me out of the story completely - and I don't think you can bypass it. You can actually, though it's advisable not to.
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Post by vastariner on Aug 12, 2020 13:59:44 GMT
I think Ian is the second-best writer (after Robin Waterfield) in the series. Blacksand and the dungeon come alive off the page in a way that nobody else can quite match. Lots of atmosphere and little verbal flourishes.
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Post by linflas on Aug 13, 2020 13:25:56 GMT
No. Blacksand and Dungeon are alive because of Iain Mc Caig's art. But we can thank Livingstone for insisting on putting gorgeous illustrations into the books.
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revenant
Squire
Posts: 21
Favourite Gamebook Series: Zork (just kidding)
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Post by revenant on Aug 19, 2020 9:00:56 GMT
How to give a tactful opinion on the gamebooks of Ian Livingstone? The man has given us so much, and that goes right up to the present day. But there's no doubt that there's a lot of mediocrity in the later, and many of the earlier works. I feel churlish to say so...but there it is.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 19, 2020 9:22:11 GMT
The mistake was going with Scholastic to re-run the series. Now that it's aimed for young children, the art, the writing and the gameplay will be much too simple for our tastes. I think this is might be why Jon Green's books haven't been considered for a re-release yet - the writing is more adult oriented and gameplay is more complex than the average FF book (i.e. they can't be dumbed down to the level Scholastic requires). A shame but it is currently how it is and will be until they decide otherwise or manage to get a better, less restrictive, publisher.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,462
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 19, 2020 10:41:26 GMT
The mistake was going with Scholastic to re-run the series. Now that it's aimed for young children, the art, the writing and the gameplay will be much too simple for our tastes. Although Scholastic did reprint House of Hell (more adult themed), Sorcery (more complex) and Creature of Havoc (both). Maybe they were obligated to do so as they are Steve Jackson books, but they want to make them the exception rather than the rule. As I mentioned before, it will be interesting to see if Legend of Zagor gets a reprint given it was perhaps the most complex book of the original 59.
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Post by Wilf on Aug 19, 2020 12:20:45 GMT
It will be interesting to see if Legend of Zagor gets a reprint given it was perhaps the most complex book of the original 59. And given that Ian Livingstone is on record as saying that he will ensure any future reprints will be credited to the correct author(s)...
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Post by philsadler on Aug 19, 2020 12:56:31 GMT
It will be interesting to see if Legend of Zagor gets a reprint given it was perhaps the most complex book of the original 59. And given that Ian Livingstone is on record as saying that he will ensure any future reprints will be credited to the correct author(s)...
No wonder it hasn't happened yet then.
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