Best ff ever first place showdown

[tyrion]

Standings so far:
16 - Sword of the samurai
15 - Island of the undead
14 - Night dragon
13 - Legend of the shadow warriors
12 - Beneath nightmare castle
11 - Night of the necromancer
10 - Vault of the vampire
9 - The seven serpents
8 - Deathtrap dungeon
7 - Creature of havoc
6 - Siege of sardath
5 - Khare cityport of traps
4 - Slaves of the abyss
3 - House of hell 

So this is it then. Notice I haven't changed the question of the poll, you are still voting for your least favourite!

[kieran]

Disappointed but not too surprised to see House go out. Still, two solid books in the final so can't complain too much whichever wins.

[stevendoig]

I'm sure Howl will win this. I really, really like Talisman (I have blethered about it before) so this is tricky.

[sylas]

Howl has the better game, but Talisman has the better story. Both are written fantastically well and make worthy winners though neither are my favourites. Talisman has the really difficult fights and the ambiguous Skill bonuses while Howl has great potential in the Change score that is essentially wasted unless you get super unlucky with the dice rolls. Howl has more atmosphere and immersive gameplay. Talisman has impressive world building and memorable characters. I love the artwork for both but Talisman has the better original cover.

Gonna give Talisman of Death the edge for successfully cramming in the amazing world of Orb and its many notable characters into just 400 sections, which is quite a feat in itself. Plus, when it comes down to it, I enjoy this one more.

[linflas]

You already know that I don't like vampires. Same from werewolves..

[Wilf]

I honestly thought I'd be voting for whichever book wasn't House Of Hell. How the devil did that one lose the last round? As it is, neither of these are among my all-time favourites, though I do like them both very much. But I've no passionate feeling towards one over the other either way, and I don't actually care which one wins. I abstain.

[sleepyscholar]

Sept 15, 2020 1:43:09 GMT Wilf said:

I honestly thought I'd be voting for whichever book wasn't House Of Hell. How the devil did that one lose the last round? As it is, neither of these are among my all-time favourites, though I do like them both very much. But I've no passionate feeling towards one over the other either way, and I don't actually care which one wins. I abstain.

While I think this system is an interesting one, and as I've mentioned before, dramatic, Wilf's put his finger on the problem. The build-up to the winner should be exciting. Instead it's an anti-climax, because only those for whom either Talisman or Howl are favourites have much of a stake in the outcome. So we end up with the feeling not so much that we are deciding the best FF title, but the one that is least disliked! This was why I was encouraging people to vote Slaves out. I'm actually much more interested in books that generate both positive and negative feelings.

It will be interesting to compare the rankings in this table with Vagsancho's list of singular favourites, though.

Incidentally, I've already passed on to Jamie the fact that Talisman's on its way to the top. He'll be really chuffed. (So that's as good a reason for voting Talisman out as I can think of!)

[sylas]

Sept 15, 2020 3:44:07 GMT sleepyscholar said:

Sept 15, 2020 1:43:09 GMT Wilf said:

I honestly thought I'd be voting for whichever book wasn't House Of Hell. How the devil did that one lose the last round? As it is, neither of these are among my all-time favourites, though I do like them both very much. But I've no passionate feeling towards one over the other either way, and I don't actually care which one wins. I abstain.

While I think this system is an interesting one, and as I've mentioned before, dramatic, Wilf's put his finger on the problem. The build-up to the winner should be exciting. Instead it's an anti-climax, because only those for whom either Talisman or Howl are favourites have much of a stake in the outcome. So we end up with the feeling not so much that we are deciding the best FF title, but the one that is least disliked! This was why I was encouraging people to vote Slaves out. I'm actually much more interested in books that generate both positive and negative feelings.

It will be interesting to compare the rankings in this table with Vagsancho's list of singular favourites, though.

Incidentally, I've already passed on to Jamie the fact that Talisman's on its way to the top. He'll be really chuffed. (So that's as good a reason for voting Talisman out as I can think of!)

LOL

Howl of the Werewolf already won a best FF book poll many years ago during the early Fantazine surveys. Would be great if something else won for a change.

[tyrion]

Howl of the werewolf has multiple ways through, great atmosphere, excellent writing and superb illustrations.

Talisman of death is the world of Orb but with ff rules, is basically Lord of the rings (complete with ringwraiths and a dragon) and has two skill 12 opponents you have to fight. However, it just feels more fun, does manage to squeeze a lot of stuff in there and has a vivisect. So I think that might be my favourite out of these two.

[schlendrian]

Two worthy finalists
Although I adore Jamie for writing my favourite gamebook series, my vote for best ff ever goes to Howl, which reads great, plays great and manages to make even werewolves exciting, although normally I have linflas' attitude towards them.

[schlendrian]

Sept 14, 2020 17:27:32 GMT tyrion said:

Standings so far:
16 - Sword of the samurai
15 - Island of the undead
14 - Night dragon
13 - Legend of the shadow warriors
12 - Beneath nightmare castle
11 - Night of the necromancer
10 - Vault of the vampire
9 - The seven serpents
8 - Deathtrap dungeon
7 - Creature of havoc
6 - Siege of sardath
5 - Khare cityport of traps
4 - Slaves of the abyss
3 - House of hell 

So this is it then. Notice I haven't changed the question of the poll, you are still voting for your least favourite!

Almost made that mistake!

[dragonwarrior8]

Sept 15, 2020 17:15:55 GMT schlendrian said:

Two worthy finalists
Although I adore Jamie for writing my favourite gamebook series, my vote for best ff ever goes to Howl, which reads great, plays great and manages to make even werewolves exciting, although normally I have linflas' attitude towards them.

Werewolves are actually among my favorite creatures since being traumatized by both "An American Werewolf in London" and the opening to the Thriller music video as a kid. (And "Silver Bullet" was creepy as heck too). 

[vagsancho]

In my opinion, House of Hell should absolutely be the final winner.
Having said that, Howl of the Werewolf should be a great Winner.
Having said that, my vote to win is Talisman of Death, wich i prefer.

[bloodbeasthandler]

Sept 15, 2020 3:44:07 GMT sleepyscholar said:

While I think this system is an interesting one, and as I've mentioned before, dramatic, Wilf's put his finger on the problem. The build-up to the winner should be exciting. Instead it's an anti-climax, because only those for whom either Talisman or Howl are favourites have much of a stake in the outcome. So we end up with the feeling not so much that we are deciding the best FF title, but the one that is least disliked! .... It will be interesting to compare the rankings in this table with Vagsancho's list of singular favourites, though.

Could this be the result of decision by committee or coalition? PR rather than First Past The Post where the majority do not get exactly what they wanted but .. more or less the majority is ok with it?

Having said that, the end result may be exactly the same either way! [as you say, let’s see what Vaghsancho’s poll comes up with] 

Sept 15, 2020 3:44:07 GMT sleepyscholar said:

This was why I was encouraging people to vote Slaves out. I'm actually much more interested in books that generate both positive and negative feelings.

If you were wondering, I would say that it is not true that Slaves of the Abyss was just pootling along ‘below the radar’, unable to generate enough feeling one way or the other to be voted for. Or worse, that it was being used as a sort of cudgel to knock other titles out of the ring.

Searching for mentions of it on this forum, it’s got its fans and champions and those that think it’s just ok, which is maybe why it’s done so well. It is certainly one of the books I myself have revisited numerous times since I first read it in 88 or 89, and got my wife have a go of it too. By contrast I do not think I've read FF33 Sky Lord since it first came out. 

SotA does not have a reputation of ‘Best FF Evarrr’ so there was no ‘tall poppy’ thing going on - no-one looking for the opportunity to thwack its head off like I suspect happened with Creature of Havoc and maybe Deathtrap Dungeon.
This might also have contributed to its success here. 

I’d be interested in what effect on voting (if any) your actual presence on the forum might have had.. but there I’d say we venture into the realm of psychology and I’m not qualified to have a worthwhile opinion. Did anyone’s cursor hover over a Paul Mason title, hesitate, then scoot off and vote for something else ... because Paul’s a good old stick taking the time to interact with us... and it would make him sad to see his work downvoted? Who knows! Unmeasurable and unknowable now, really.



For the top 10 I’d maybe knock one of the Sorcery! Books out and replace it with Legend of the Shadow Warriors or Moonrunner, but there you are.

Speaking for myself, I was finding myself loathe to vote for the Sorcery! books because I love the series (which is more than a sum of its individual books) so much and considered Khare or Seven Serpents to represent the series as a whole, acting as a sort of 'standard bearer' for the whole lot.
Did anyone else? 

Sept 15, 2020 3:44:07 GMT sleepyscholar said:

Incidentally, I've already passed on to Jamie the fact that Talisman's on its way to the top. He'll be really chuffed. (So that's as good a reason for voting Talisman out as I can think of!)

Tell him to pop by on the forum and be a magnanimous winner (or runner-up). 

Wallowing in such praise and affirmation he might feel impelled to write another book, we can only hope. 

[sleepyscholar]

Sept 16, 2020 16:26:17 GMT bloodbeasthandler said:

I’d be interested in what effect on voting (if any) your actual presence on the forum might have had.. but there I’d say we venture into the realm of psychology and I’m not qualified to have a worthwhile opinion. Did anyone’s cursor hover over a Paul Mason title, hesitate, then scoot off and vote for something else ... because Paul’s a good old stick taking the time to interact with us... and it would make him sad to see his work downvoted? Who knows! Unmeasurable and unknowable now, really.


For the top 10 I’d maybe knock one of the Sorcery! Books out and replace it with Legend of the Shadow Warriors or Moonrunner, but there you are.

I sort of wondered about the point you were making of whether my presence would change things. But I decided it was unlikely to (I wouldn't have participated if I thought it would seriously warp things). This is partly because, in the old days when I used to be on the mailing list, participants had no problems whatsoever telling me my books sucked seawater. It's also partly because not everyone was aware I wrote Slaves. I think people voted the way they wanted to vote, when it came right down to it.

I know I have Moonrunner on the shelf at the office, so it's possible that I was thinking about that as the one I really liked. I'll have to check.

Jamie's not one for participating in fan stuff. I've never once seen anything by him in a fanzine, for example, and bear in mind that he's played in games with quite a number of fanzine editors (me, Ian Marsh, James Wallis, Gail Baker, Dave Morris/Steve Foster). But he is still writing. Just not FF. I think when you've had a mainstream hit (Dirk Lloyd) it's rather more difficult to go back and do something for someone else, especially when the someone else deprives you of copyright.

[kieran]

So that's that - Howl wins! After winning this and the Fighting Fantazine poll, I think we might have to concede it is indeed the best ever FF book.

Thanks for doing these Tyrion, they've been a lot of fun!

[vagsancho]

A brand new school FF Book wins the voting to the best fighting fantasy book of all times. Fighting fantasy do not live in the past after all.

[linflas]

Howl is also number 1 in french forums. Not very surprised, so :-)

[vagsancho]

Sept 17, 2020 8:13:07 GMT vagsancho said:

A brand new school FF Book wins the voting to the best fighting fantasy book of all times. Fighting fantasy do not live in the past after all.

I am old school though, lover of House of Hell, Crypt of the Sorcerer, and Trial of Champions. But the diabolical bloodpact in Howl is fantastic i must say.

[sylas]

So Howl won, no surprise. Was closer than I thought though. Wonder how the books rank if we go by number of votes in total instead of when it was voted out?

[Wilf]

Sept 17, 2020 8:13:07 GMT vagsancho said:

A brand new school FF Book wins the voting to the best fighting fantasy book of all times. Fighting fantasy do not live in the past after all.

I think you might be, though, if you think a 13 year old book is brand new...

[Wilf]

Sept 17, 2020 13:56:39 GMT sylas said:

So Howl won, no surprise. Was closer than I thought though. Wonder how the books rank if we go by number of votes in total instead of when it was voted out?

I'd be interested in seeing the rankings if we all rated the books we've read out of ten and took the averages.

Has anyone ever done that?

If not, would you all be up for it if I started the threads and did the maths?

(I'd let the dust settle from the showdown first.  Maybe wait until we've all had time to form an opinion about The Crystal Of Storms...)

[bloodbeasthandler]

Sept 17, 2020 14:59:21 GMT Wilf said:

Sept 17, 2020 8:13:07 GMT vagsancho said:

A brand new school FF Book wins the voting to the best fighting fantasy book of all times. Fighting fantasy do not live in the past after all.

I think you might be, though, if you think a 13 year old book is brand new...

....I'd be interested in seeing the rankings if we all rated the books we've read out of ten and took the averages.

He's not the only one. I consider it one of the 'new' books too, and also refer to the Battlestar Galactica series being currently reshown on telly as 'The new one' despite it being from 2004-09. 
I was not around pre-decimalisation otherwise I'd be one of those folk thinking in shillings and tanners I expect. 

With that second point you raised, yeah - I'd be up for that.
To get a purer result I'd prefer it secret ballot, PMs to the organiser.
The tactical voting (or whatever it was) was getting on my nerves. 

[schlendrian]

We'd probably need a mechanism to break ties though. There'd probably be a couple books with mostly tens and 1,2 nines.

P.S.: Thanks to bbh, I just learned how long it took the UK to get a "decent" currency system - Wow (no offence meant, just genuinely surprised )

[Wilf]

Sept 17, 2020 15:56:59 GMT bloodbeasthandler said:

With that second point you raised, yeah - I'd be up for that.
To get a purer result I'd prefer it secret ballot, PMs to the organiser.

I completely agree, and that's exactly how I'd run it.

[bloodbeasthandler]

Sept 17, 2020 16:35:10 GMT schlendrian said:

P.S.: Thanks to bbh, I just learned how long it took the UK to get a "decent" currency system - Wow (no offence meant, just genuinely surprised )

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Pre-decimalisation_coins_of_the_United_Kingdom

Half a crown was two shillings and sixpence, a guinea was a pound and a shilling. 
12 pence to a shilling (also known as a 'bob'), 20 shillings to a pound, so a pound was 240 pence. 
Then suddenly at decimalisation it was 100 pence to a pound and the shilling coin was still legal tender but now worth 5p.  

It caused a bit of confusion at first, especially with older people. 

Of course in all honesty a decimal system is far more logical and easier to work with but it's not taken over completely

At school I was taught both Imperial and Decimal measurements concurrently and though indeed the focus has been more and more on decimal, as you may know, there was resistance when Imperial was being ousted by decimalisation when it came to selling fruit and vegetables and pints of beer. 


And I can say in all honesty, schlendrian, that I do not know my own exact height in metres nor my weight in kilograms. 
 

[tyrion]

Sept 17, 2020 6:32:29 GMT kieran said:

So that's that - Howl wins! After winning this and the Fighting Fantazine poll, I think we might have to concede it is indeed the best ever FF book.

Thanks for doing these Tyrion, they've been a lot of fun!

Your welcome!

[tyrion]

Sept 17, 2020 13:56:39 GMT sylas said:

So Howl won, no surprise. Was closer than I thought though. Wonder how the books rank if we go by number of votes in total instead of when it was voted out?

I think it would be difficult to do this as 
1. It would have to be a mean vote of the rounds that a book was in rather than total votes
2. As books were eliminated there will be less choices, so the books remaining will get more votes anyway, which would have to be compensated for.

[schlendrian]

Sept 17, 2020 18:02:40 GMT bloodbeasthandler said:

Half a crown was two shillings and sixpence, a guinea was a pound and a shilling. 
12 pence to a shilling (also known as a 'bob'), 20 shillings to a pound, so a pound was 240 pence. 
Then suddenly at decimalisation it was 100 pence to a pound and the shilling coin was still legal tender but now worth 5p.  

[The Count]

Sept 17, 2020 15:02:48 GMT Wilf said:

Sept 17, 2020 13:56:39 GMT sylas said:

So Howl won, no surprise. Was closer than I thought though. Wonder how the books rank if we go by number of votes in total instead of when it was voted out?

I'd be interested in seeing the rankings if we all rated the books we've read out of ten and took the averages.

Has anyone ever done that?

If not, would you all be up for it if I started the threads and did the maths?

(I'd let the dust settle from the showdown first.  Maybe wait until we've all had time to form an opinion about The Crystal Of Storms...)

I have a spreadsheet on my laptop, partly based on nostalgic memories, partly on more recent replays where possible (I'm not going to hunt down a copy of Zombies  just to check how much I dislike pretty much everything about it for example) that ranks each book out of 100 based on:
- writing
- plot
- atmosphere
- gameplay
- enjoyment
- replay
- artwork  (only used in the event of a tie - otherwise any new books would be marked down excessively)

I revisited it recently as I had to add in Port, Gates and Assassins. Once I've rated Storms, I might post the whole thing.