kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on May 20, 2016 9:54:38 GMT
Well if you end up fighting it you've messed up pretty bad so killing it probably doesn't merit a reward.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on May 20, 2016 20:51:40 GMT
I remember this book. Wasn't there a skill 16 enemy at one point (which luckily you didn't have to fight)? Yet what's the point of an enemy that no one will ever beat? What's more, I think I read the para where you killed it (just to find out) and it just said you "killed the demon, good bye". Not even a luck point! I know Scorpion Swamp quite well and I believe that it is on the Grimslade path where your naivety is punished if you reveal your magic ring as the source of your power. The text even says something about being careless.
Is this the highest skill enemy you can fight in the original 1 to 59(?) books?
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on May 20, 2016 22:10:42 GMT
I think the Night Dragon and Titanium Cyborg both have higher Skills
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Post by philsadler on May 20, 2016 22:31:15 GMT
Don't forget Zagor-Demon.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on May 20, 2016 23:03:41 GMT
Think he's Sk16 as well, isn't he?
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Post by Jon on May 21, 2016 20:54:13 GMT
The Zagor-Demon is skill 16, but you are supposed to collect golden talismans with which to weaken him. However, the way the talismans and daggers work is a bit suspect. You could collect more than ten daggers which should kill him outright, but don't.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on May 24, 2016 11:44:02 GMT
The Zagor-Demon is skill 16 I remember Grimslade. Interesting person.
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Post by hynreck on May 24, 2016 12:24:31 GMT
Nice quote/reply thingy.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jul 20, 2017 21:22:29 GMT
Selator solution upgrade complete with improved readability.
I have slightly changed the path due to the gift of +2 initial luck being previously unrealised. The idea now is to cast the luck spell and use 3 luck against the sword trees. This means you can kill it with only 3 hits.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Jul 21, 2017 23:12:37 GMT
Poomchukker and Grimslade now improved with upgraded readability.
I cannot improve on the logic given previously. The best neutral path should be a little circuitous to acquire the Golden Magnet for a trade at Willowbend. The evil path still seems most straightforward when you go for three amulets keeping this path fairly short. The one luck roll is hardly Crypt or Spellbreaker and keeping in line with what Mistress of Birds says more ethical.
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Post by vastariner on Jul 30, 2017 17:55:01 GMT
So… as has been pointed out by others, the concept of Sword Trees doesn’t really make much sense: Did the swords grow out of them like branches? How do they end up holding them? They're not really sword trees. They are a hybrid being. Created as the result of someone misusing the Biantai spell from the Isles of the Dawn when an army of swordsmen - who had taken on the Swamp despite its reputation - were pressed against ordinary trees when hiding from an assault by one of the Masters and their creatures.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Jul 31, 2017 1:51:40 GMT
So… as has been pointed out by others, the concept of Sword Trees doesn’t really make much sense: Did the swords grow out of them like branches? How do they end up holding them? They're not really sword trees. They are a hybrid being. Created as the result of someone misusing the Biantai spell from the Isles of the Dawn when an army of swordsmen - who had taken on the Swamp despite its reputation - were pressed against ordinary trees when hiding from an assault by one of the Masters and their creatures. That's a very interesting thought (I assume it's your idea...?). It would make a lot more sense that way though I doubt Steve Jackson had anything as sophisticated as that in mind. For slightly unclear reasons, it reminded me of this bit in The Simpsons. (Mind you, everything reminds me of something in The Simpsons.)
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Post by lordomnibok on Jul 31, 2017 2:13:24 GMT
They're not really sword trees. They are a hybrid being. Created as the result of someone misusing the Biantai spell from the Isles of the Dawn when an army of swordsmen - who had taken on the Swamp despite its reputation - were pressed against ordinary trees when hiding from an assault by one of the Masters and their creatures. That's a very interesting thought (I assume it's your idea?). It would make a lot more sense that way though I doubt Steve Jackson had anything as sophisticated as that in mind. For slightly unclear reasons, it reminded me of this bit in The Simpsons. (Mind you, everything reminds me of something in The Simpsons.) Sorry for going off topic, but as you evidently live near London like me & you are posting at 3 in the morning, I presume that you, like me, also require no sleep
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Jul 31, 2017 14:34:29 GMT
That's a very interesting thought (I assume it's your idea?). It would make a lot more sense that way though I doubt Steve Jackson had anything as sophisticated as that in mind. For slightly unclear reasons, it reminded me of this bit in The Simpsons. (Mind you, everything reminds me of something in The Simpsons.) Sorry for going off topic, but as you evidently live near London like me & you are posting at 3 in the morning, I presume that you, like me, also require no sleep Ha! Well it's true I get by without an enormous amount of sleep. It's probably more that I'm an extreme night owl and not doing any work which requires an early morning start at the moment.
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Post by vastariner on Sept 14, 2017 6:50:26 GMT
They're not really sword trees. They are a hybrid being. Created as the result of someone misusing the Biantai spell from the Isles of the Dawn when an army of swordsmen - who had taken on the Swamp despite its reputation - were pressed against ordinary trees when hiding from an assault by one of the Masters and their creatures. That's a very interesting thought (I assume it's your idea...?). Yes, I have this mad compulsion to rationalize things in-universe. Given that Titan has magic as well as evolution, and evolution would not produce sword trees, it makes sense to have magic create them. It's why Wheelies are a social creation - they have to feed each other.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Dec 23, 2017 20:02:44 GMT
I am in turbo autistic pedant mode today.
I have updated my solutions with the 'concept' systems compared to my 'intuition' systems.
First in the spirit of the House of Commons a point of order about the visit to the dealer in Willowbend. Prior to this there is the skill fight and it clearly states at 128 "You must give him any one gem, jewel or magical artefact that you possess" so this clearly necessitates giving him the Fire Gem and then trading the Golden Magnet for a Fire Gem at Willowbend.
Second I have tried to slightly rationalise the use of Stamina Spells with Selator and Poomchukker. I do not know if this will slightly improve the percentages.
Third I have tried to rationalise my 'moral' Grimslade. I even tried going to eat the Antherica berry then realised you must need a gob full for it to have any effect. The stamina and luck boosts are derisory after having taken a pounding. This leads to a request as to whether you can feed in my new system in to your computer calculations. I hope this is not too onerous if you typed my old one in. I hope you have it saved.
I tried about a billion permutations with whether to not take a Skill Gem for an extra Stamina Gem. This seems to leave you with a sk6 against a sk6 and sk7 fighting in unison but all the extra lost rounds! It seems tough either way so I see why you have taken on the sk9 cursed wolf. How about not using the Fear Gem but this necessitates fighting 3 in unison a sk6, sk7 and s6 with an extra round to parry every round then the extra sk6 to be dealt with itself. I am beginning to believe this is punishment for taking the 'evil' option.
This left a further problem which I have not solved. I now have to wade across, very carefully rather than using an Ice Gem but there is the strange 2d6 but only count the lower number but at least you would have to be very unlucky to lose -5 or -6 stamina. For that reason this route seems preferable to the Unicorn route where you are virtually guaranteed to lose -6 stamina as a matter of course.
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Post by champskees on Dec 24, 2017 8:56:43 GMT
Yes the bandit leader duel had me going through the book too. Although it states gem, jewel or magical artefact, I believe handing over the 'golden magnet' is also a possibility if you rationalise the request from the bandit's perspective. My argument as follows:
1. It is not actually a 'golden magnet', rather a golden pendant in the shape of a magnet. As pendants would be considered jewellery I can see the bandits identifying this as something they would be interested in.
2. The bandits want items of value because they make their living selling these sorts of items to a prospective buyer. The closest vendor available to them is the wizard in Willowbend. Look what he is willing to barter for: A Unicorn Horn (magical), the Amulets (another item the bandits want), a Purple Jewel (a jewel) and the golden magnet pendant. A bit odd that the golden pendant would be valued by the vendor but not the bandits when all of the other items are of common interest.
3. The pendant is cursed i.e it is a magical artefact. Of course you would not know that if you did not encounter the Savage Orcs, but how can the bandits identify whether something is magical? If you had Grimslade's magic sword for example, do they have the expertise to appraise it on the spot? I think not.
In my solution you actually don't have any spell gems left by this time, you burn through all of them but you do possess a Golden Magnet pendant. As you get away scot free otherwise (they do not take the Brass Ring), I felt it was rational and fair that they would take the pendant as opposed to nothing.
All imho of course. Also I noticed in your Poomchukker solution you assume that the duel results in no damage taken? Is it possible that you take 2 Damage if you are hit, as it is essentially one round of combat?
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Dec 24, 2017 10:31:37 GMT
This is ridiculous as we rationalise when it is a bit ambiguous but the letter and intent is manifestly there. The spurious reasoning is not compelling when the intent is clear.
At 150 it is clearly referenced as a Golden Magnet.
There is a bit of ambiguity about the status of the object itself but none if you give him the Fire Gem. For whatever reason the dealer does want the Golden Magnet so this is not ambiguous either.
For some reason you seem to have forgotten about the Fire Gem.
Finally the first hit first combat contains this line "His blade raps you sharply on the ribs" 128 so it is a test of skill and not an attack round.
I was in turbo pedant mode but not Rimmer mode.
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Post by champskees on Dec 24, 2017 12:47:32 GMT
This is ridiculous as we rationalise when it is a bit ambiguous but the letter and intent is manifestly there. The spurious reasoning is not compelling when the intent is clear. At 150 it is clearly referenced as a Golden Magnet. There is a bit of ambiguity about the status of the object itself but none if you give him the Fire Gem. For whatever reason the dealer does want the Golden Magnet so this is not ambiguous either. For some reason you seem to have forgotten about the Fire Gem. Finally the first hit first combat contains this line "His blade raps you sharply on the ribs" 128 so it is a test of skill and not an attack round. I was in turbo pedant mode but not Rimmer mode. Read para 59 though. Did you pick up a Golden Magnet or a pendant shaped like a golden magnet? Seems clear as day to me that the fallen warrior did not have an actual magnet wrapped around his neck. The only way arrows can be attracted to the pendant is because it is magical. If the wizard specifically wants a golden magnet then guess what: you do not have one. According to your dogmatic reasoning, you would not be able to trade your item because it is not what the wizard has so explicitly stated. He wants a golden magnet, you have a pendant shaped like a golden magnet. We can attempt to guess the author's intentions, but we can also look at the details presented to us and see how they may be manipulated. Ultimately judgements must be made and I do not think either of us can be the arbiters of truth when it comes to these books! The only black and white we can be assured of is in the illustrations imo. Probably a bit too forest from the trees but one must keep an open mind with these books sometimes. In this particular case there is an easy workaround but in other instances there isn't. I have become increasingly aware of the grey areas in many of the adventures and I have been increasingly thinking about these both from a strategic and creative view. Of course you are right with the Fire Gem being given up as this puts the matter to bed and I will edit the solution to reflect that. I think originally I was trying to find a way to use the fire spell on the sword trees but was unsuccessful. Btw I enjoy reading your specific points on these recent updates, keep them coming. I did delete the Grimslade one but I may return to have a look at it - much easier to code+test the solution when it is already laid out in these solution forums.
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Dec 26, 2017 20:20:26 GMT
This is like Kripke with his fascinating work Naming And Necessity where an object can be named the "morning star" and the "evening star" and yet be the same object namely Venus.
All I can say on this irritating topic is to be 'concept' and 'intuition' based at an everyday level. The 'object' is being referenced in two different ways otherwise madness ensues where if "The Warlock of Firetop Mountain" is not always referenced that way and is sometimes referenced as "the Warlock" then they are two different objects(like Kripke above)
On your reasoning there are three objects "Golden Magnet" "pendant shaped like a golden magnet" and "cursed"(magnet)(at one of the possess the magnet and luck roll paragraphs) so are you committed to there being three objects?
On a semantic note the "pendant shaped like a golden magnet" is rational in the text because at that point you do not know what it will do unless you possess it and encounter the arrows which are drawn to it thereby revealing its nature as a magnet. The text is rational and the Dealer must be rational as well because he identifies the object as it is from his point of view(method unknown and why he wants it is unknown - all we know is he wants it so unambiguous)
I can only say I am obeying the text as far as possible ie the ambiguity is whether a "cursed" item is a "magical" item. Is one religious and the other supernatural? I am hedging my bets so I give the Fire Gem(unambiguous) and replace it using the Golden Magnet(unambiguous) which is realised in the text without having to go on a wild detour so it is not a serious solution issue.
In the image of the dead warrior I do not believe the object is even represented so on your reasoning we should ignore the pertinent references altogether!
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Post by champskees on Dec 26, 2017 23:57:01 GMT
This is like Kripke with his fascinating work Naming And Necessity where an object can be named the "morning star" and the "evening star" and yet be the same object namely Venus. All I can say on this irritating topic is to be 'concept' and 'intuition' based at an everyday level. The 'object' is being referenced in two different ways otherwise madness ensues where if "The Warlock of Firetop Mountain" is not always referenced that way and is sometimes referenced as "the Warlock" then they are two different objects(like Kripke above) On your reasoning there are three objects "Golden Magnet" "pendant shaped like a golden magnet" and "cursed"(magnet)(at one of the possess the magnet and luck roll paragraphs) so are you committed to there being three objects? On a semantic note the "pendant shaped like a golden magnet" is rational in the text because at that point you do not know what it will do unless you possess it and encounter the arrows which are drawn to it thereby revealing its nature as a magnet. The text is rational and the Dealer must be rational as well because he identifies the object as it is from his point of view(method unknown and why he wants it is unknown - all we know is he wants it so unambiguous) I can only say I am obeying the text as far as possible ie the ambiguity is whether a "cursed" item is a "magical" item. Is one religious and the other supernatural? I am hedging my bets so I give the Fire Gem(unambiguous) and replace it using the Golden Magnet(unambiguous) which is realised in the text without having to go on a wild detour so it is not a serious solution issue. In the image of the dead warrior I do not believe the object is even represented so on your reasoning we should ignore the pertinent references altogether! Trust me I was squinting at that image to see the bloody thing!
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Dec 27, 2017 0:21:46 GMT
This is all a bit of a blind alley though instructive on how we approach things.
My post on the solutions board about the silver flute is more what it is about it seems to me. I have no desire to be a relentless pedant or a Rimmer especially on a board like this where it should be 'concept' power, on the one hand, and laughs on the other.
My last inner keep(pun intended) is Night as all my other walls have been breached but in a good way. I tried one evening to 'go direct' in Night which results in a roll(2-9?) to acquire Spook and then a 'do or die'(I am 'obeying' my rules in a 'sincere' way I hope - headache)roll(2-8) to acquire Shade. I am not sure if this is conceptually better than my take-risks-at-the-beginning so-called definitive solution. Only about 50 odd books until I find out according to your 'iteration' based solutions. I suppose I have until about the Summer of 2018 to dream up more excuses than Bart Simpson when he has failed to do his homework/project/show and tell or whatever. First excuse from a 'human' point of view - it is better to take risks at the beginning and then Night(more or less)resolves itself. Expect endless 'iterations' of this excuse if it is needed.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Aug 13, 2019 18:49:53 GMT
Somebody has the contact of steve jackson. I would like to question where he took the idea for Scorpion Swamp. My curiosity is due to the strong feeling i have that Scorpion Swamp alrealdy existed previously the creation of this gamebook.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Sept 18, 2019 18:02:00 GMT
Oouh that Grimslade's castle. The most atmospheric castle of all fighting fantasy books!
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Post by johnbrawn1972 on Sept 18, 2019 21:46:36 GMT
Oouh that Grimslade's castle. The most atmospheric castle of all fighting fantasy books! You sound like Frank Spencer.
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Post by a moderator on Sept 18, 2019 23:39:22 GMT
Neuburg Keep is far more atmospheric IMO.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Sept 19, 2019 9:15:38 GMT
Something could also be said for the castle in which you can spend the night in Spectral Stalkers
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Post by The Count on Oct 26, 2019 22:19:08 GMT
I usually go for the pool beasts jewel if I am intending to go to Willowbend just incase I need a jewel to hand over. Suboptimal if you want to play with minimal fighting however it is an easy enough book without too many difficult opponents and adds a nice challenge when playing with minimum stats.
The only time I died playing this was making a stupid decision first time I met the Master of Spiders.
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Post by daredevil123 on Nov 15, 2019 18:33:17 GMT
Does anyone know why Grimslade has Sk 9 St 10 if you fight him at the start of the book but Sk 13 St 18 if you fight him at the end? It's always confused me.
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Post by a moderator on Nov 15, 2019 20:19:05 GMT
He's not expecting you to attack him in the initial encounter. By the time you return, he's already made up his mind to try and cheat you, and he knows that you're capable enough to have survived the dangers of the swamp, so he's done what he can to prepare himself for a fight in case you respond to his shenanigans with violence.
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