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Post by terrysalt on Aug 10, 2022 21:54:10 GMT
We talk a lot about the difficulty of Crypt of the Sorcerer (and rightfully so), but was anyone able to beat Sky Lord by the rules? I assume someone has done it, I was just curious how long it took. I had to finally throw in the towel after over 80(!) attempts. I feel like you would eventually get lucky enough with the rolls, but I just could not get through all the vehicle combats in one go, and at some point you have to start questioning your life choices. Heck, in well more than half those attempts I didn't even make it past the first half dozen sections of the book! This is the second most difficult entry in the series I've played up to this point. Sky Lord is one of the ones I had to cheat to get through in my progressive stats thread so I have not succeeded in that task and I really don't want to try to.
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Post by time4tea on Aug 28, 2022 11:14:39 GMT
Hi, I used to enjoy the Fighting Fantasy books as a kid and I've been getting into them again after many years. Sky Lord is one of the ones I've been reading (I know it has a bad rep, but I kind of liked the Sci-fi ones :-) ). I don't think it's too bad, personally. I kind of like the quirky, slightly mad sci-fi setting. In terms of difficulty, I'm a bit surprised to see it ranked so highly. Yeah, a couple of the ship combats seem a bit tough, but I've been able to get through to the battle with the Tungsten Klaw (just after the blob chase supermarket sweep ;-) ).
Anyway, about that, is there any rhyme or reason to this combat, where you have to control your pitch, roll, yaw? I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing and could really use some sort of 'minimal hint'. The book doesn't seem to give any clues as to what you're supposed to do.
The funny thing is, I'm actually an aerospace engineer and I've taken courses in astrodynamics. The way ships move in space is quite counter-intuitive and nothing like how aircraft move in an atmosphere. In particular, roll would do very little (assuming thrusters are all pointed in reverse), as there are no aerodynamics in space! Are we supposed to be trying to track the position/attitudes of these two spacecraft in our heads, or something?
Perhaps I'm over-thinking this, but my engineer brain is feeling quite confused. I have to know! :-P
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CharlesX
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 28, 2022 11:48:24 GMT
Hi time4tea nice to meet you and cool post. You might like this thread link 'The secret to Sky Lord's pitch roll battle'. My understanding is it makes some convoluted sense. Obviously the author (Martin Allen) could and should have bothered to write a few sentences of instructions.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Aug 28, 2022 16:31:27 GMT
It's a botched dogfight, botched like most of the rest of the book. Instead of something like commanding an X-Wing in the battle at the end of Star Wars, we got an incomprehensible load of numbers. Not atmospheric at all. Victory by sheer luck or trial and error, like mashing keys and waggling a joystick about at random and by doing so winning a fighting game on the Spectrum.
I wonder what Andrew Chapman would have done with the idea - I'm thinking a mini-game like the tank battle in Space Assassin. That might have worked.
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CharlesX
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 28, 2022 17:06:18 GMT
It's a botched dogfight, botched like most of the rest of the book. Instead of something like commanding an X-Wing in the battle at the end of Star Wars, we got an incomprehensible load of numbers. Not atmospheric at all. Victory by sheer luck or trial and error, like mashing keys and waggling a joystick about at random and by doing so winning a fighting game on the Spectrum. Funny you should say thouse things, I was thinking about the famous NES Top Gun landing which is easy to some and mission impossible to others. In this case, Sky Lord's battle is just boring, as you say. I personally think Andrew Chapman might be overrated (heresy!) but whether or not he is, his text-written battles definitely leave Sky Lord's standing, and more to the poin, they are halfway sensible instead of appearing to be written by a monkey on marijuana.
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Post by time4tea on Aug 29, 2022 10:54:19 GMT
Hi time4tea nice to meet you and cool post. You might like this thread link 'The secret to Sky Lord's pitch roll battle'. My understanding is it makes some convoluted sense. Obviously the author (Martin Allen) could and should have bothered to write a few sentences of instructions.
Hi Charles X, thanks for your reply and it's nice to meet you too
That link was very helpful, thanks. I read the first couple of posts there; tried that section again and was able to get through it. It helped a lot just to know that the aim is to align with the other ship. I definitely agree that Allen should have given at least some basic instructions on what to do. It's a bit of a missed opportunity, as it could have been quite a nice dogfighting puzzle, if the reader had been given something to go on.
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Aug 29, 2022 11:04:50 GMT
I definitely agree that Allen should have given at least some basic instructions on what to do. That's not how Martin Allen rolls (or yaws or pitches for that matter).
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Post by time4tea on Aug 29, 2022 11:05:26 GMT
It's a botched dogfight, botched like most of the rest of the book. Instead of something like commanding an X-Wing in the battle at the end of Star Wars, we got an incomprehensible load of numbers. Not atmospheric at all. Victory by sheer luck or trial and error, like mashing keys and waggling a joystick about at random and by doing so winning a fighting game on the Spectrum. I wonder what Andrew Chapman would have done with the idea - I'm thinking a mini-game like the tank battle in Space Assassin. That might have worked.
Yeah, it's not great, unfortunately. Having read the thread Charles X linked to though, I understand it a bit better now. I think the idea is decent and it kind of works (sort of), but the reader is just not given any explanation. I mean, it's very unclear what the pitch, roll, yaw numbers are relative to, which is quite confusing. It's always a bad idea to just throw some numbers at someone, without any explanation.
Anyway, I got past that part and then got taken out on Aarok (there seem to be quite a lot of combats there). I can see why people dislike the book. Many of the encounters lack variety and depth - most of them are just combats. There are very few interesting items to pick up (except in supermarket sweep station), which makes it additionally one-dimensional. The book also seems to be quite mean - very few points where it gives you back some stamina or luck. I don't think I gained a luck point anywhere - it must be an unlucky universe
The design isn't great, but I'll probably try it again a couple of times and see if I can get a bit further
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Post by Akharris on Sept 16, 2022 14:16:14 GMT
This book is silly. The Perfectas are really easy to beat despite being perfect!
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Post by CharlesX on Sept 16, 2022 14:48:59 GMT
This book is silly. The Perfectas are really easy to beat despite being perfect! That was my first thought playing Sky Lord, that they would be some super-being instead of being no more tough than a mid-grade Orc. Also that they look like that dog-like species from the Traveller universe, and just generally that they belong in Star Wars and Traveller rather than Gattaca.
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Post by time4tea on Sept 19, 2022 1:15:40 GMT
This book is silly. The Perfectas are really easy to beat despite being perfect!
They're not perfect, they're prefect
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vagsancho
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Post by vagsancho on Sept 30, 2022 18:29:51 GMT
I read sky Lord today. I fought. With all my Will. I died in a fight with One perfecta even after meeting lbastin. More than 6 hours totaly wasted. How i hate to lose a Fighting Fantas book. A horrible feeling of waste of life runs through my weakened mind.
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Post by soulreaver on Sept 30, 2023 13:53:55 GMT
Does anyone have the foggiest clue if there is any rhyme or reason to the floor puzzle at 200? My copy of the book does have the diagram on the inside front cover, and I think I deciphered most of the clue in the vellum parchment: Blue *** [square] Orange *** [circle] Order: Orange-Green-Blue (Couldn't figure out what the asterisks mean, but they are identical 3 symbol 'words' or concepts in both cases) Except none if this feels remotely helpful to getting through the puzzle.
EDIT: I've figured out a few things from 'mapping' the tile puzzle myself - not quite to completion yet but it's got me almost to the end so far:
1. If you ever step onto a tile (regardless of shape) that is already orange when you decide to step onto it, you die (it does not kill you if it changes from blue to orange once you've stepped on it). 2. Blue and Green tiles are safe to step onto 3. Whenever you step on a tile, all tiles of the same shape will change colour, in the pattern orange>green>blue>orange... 4. ...except, inexplicably, on your VERY FIRST (forced) move onto the board, where that pattern is explicitly stated to be different (orange>blue>green>orange)
5. You can't ever move 'upwards' or back onto the tile you just came from.
Those would be enough rules to theoretically make for a somewhat interesting puzzle if there was any way of knowing these rules in advance, but can anyone tell me what the rules have to do with what's written on the vellum parchment?
The 'Order' it talks about is incorrect on the first (forced) move, but correct every time thereafter, which is horribly confusing. And what's this thing about "blue something square" ,and "orange something circle"? All it really had to say is 'orange is fatal', but it doesn't seem to say anything of the sort? In fact, the only thing it seems to say in relation to orange is something related to circles (which seems totally irrelevant)? And why mention blue at all - both blue and green are safe...? I have no idea. Does anyone else?
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IoannesKantakouzenos
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Post by IoannesKantakouzenos on Oct 2, 2023 15:28:04 GMT
I have no idea. Does anyone else? I daresay not even Martin Allen has the faintest idea.
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Post by CharlesX on Oct 2, 2023 15:31:44 GMT
I have no idea. Does anyone else? I daresay not even Martin Allen has the faintest idea. I concur. Did he have some Chinese-Chess-complicated idea in mind at first he later abandoned, or was he just writing nonsense from the start? Tbh 'nonsense' is generous where Martin Allen's Sky Lord is concerned.
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Post by a moderator on Oct 2, 2023 19:26:12 GMT
I daresay not even Martin Allen has the faintest idea. I concur. Did he have some Chinese-Chess-complicated idea in mind at first he later abandoned, or was he just writing nonsense from the start? Tbh 'nonsense' is generous where Martin Allen's Sky Lord is concerned. Well, someone was able to make sense of the pitch/yaw sequence in the book, so it's possible that there is an obscure but ultimately rational explanation for this puzzle, too.
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Post by soulreaver on Oct 3, 2023 1:48:53 GMT
I concur. Did he have some Chinese-Chess-complicated idea in mind at first he later abandoned, or was he just writing nonsense from the start? Tbh 'nonsense' is generous where Martin Allen's Sky Lord is concerned. Well, someone was able to make sense of the pitch/yaw sequence in the book, so it's possible that there is an obscure but ultimately rational explanation for this puzzle, too. Except for that weird discrepancy with the colour change order at the very start, the rules of the puzzle are so far consistent and relatively straightforward, and make for a decent and original challenge. There's just no way for a player to figure them out without massive trial and error (much like everything else in the book really) - I thought the vellum parchment was supposed to provide that clue/info but it actually just obfuscates them. I think if the clue was actually, well, a clue (and it didnt have the one color change inconsistency at the start), this would have been one of the better Fighting Fantasy puzzles. I wonder if the colour change inconsistency was caused due to some sort of last minute realization by Martin Allen that he'd made a mistake in the design, but the diagram had already been sent to the printers, so he just hastily 'fixed' it in the text...
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Post by Wizard Slayer on Oct 3, 2023 13:04:10 GMT
Going through it myself I can't add much but can lend weight to some of the above...
I'm sure the diagram on the inner cover is what's wrong, not the text. The first time you step on a (square) tile it tells you what colour all the (square) tiles change to. If you work backwards from that on the colour order to get a different starting layout, then it all makes sense. It seems like the tile layout after you step onto D1 is what was handed over.
If you start with the correct layout, it then follows a logical pattern: squares change when you step on a square, circles when you step on a circle; the order orange->green->blue->orange... and stepping onto orange is death. (Another reason the diagram in the book must be wrong.)
You need to know to predict ahead or you get trapped (since you can't go back or return to the tile you left), e.g. if you step onto C2 from D2, your only options are orange. So that clue in the vellum is useful because it helps you predict.
So the questions left are:
- How can you know in advance that orange means death? Is that just supposed to be a guess? - What are the 3-letter words on the vellum? Are they even words?
On the basis that the letters aren't present in any of the other words we know, I tried finding out what 3 letter words could be made from the remaining letters. None seem to that helpful though. The most common are fix, mix, zip and imp. If I had to pick one, I'd say mix on the basis of how mostly the letters have similarities with their Roman counterparts, but that still doesn't help it mean anything.
Gathering it all together, (i) the puzzle follows the rules explained above, (ii) the drawing on the inner cover is wrong, (iii) either the rest of the vellum was somehow supposed to warn you that orange was death, or it's a red herring and you were only meant to guess.
Bit unsatisfactory really!
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Post by soulreaver on Oct 4, 2023 8:41:30 GMT
Going through it myself I can't add much but can lend weight to some of the above... I'm sure the diagram on the inner cover is what's wrong, not the text. The first time you step on a (square) tile it tells you what colour all the (square) tiles change to. If you work backwards from that on the colour order to get a different starting layout, then it all makes sense. It seems like the tile layout after you step onto D1 is what was handed over. If you start with the correct layout, it then follows a logical pattern: squares change when you step on a square, circles when you step on a circle; the order orange->green->blue->orange... and stepping onto orange is death. (Another reason the diagram in the book must be wrong.) You need to know to predict ahead or you get trapped (since you can't go back or return to the tile you left), e.g. if you step onto C2 from D2, your only options are orange. So that clue in the vellum is useful because it helps you predict. So the questions left are: - How can you know in advance that orange means death? Is that just supposed to be a guess? - What are the 3-letter words on the vellum? Are they even words? On the basis that the letters aren't present in any of the other words we know, I tried finding out what 3 letter words could be made from the remaining letters. None seem to that helpful though. The most common are fix, mix, zip and imp. If I had to pick one, I'd say mix on the basis of how mostly the letters have similarities with their Roman counterparts, but that still doesn't help it mean anything. Gathering it all together, (i) the puzzle follows the rules explained above, (ii) the drawing on the inner cover is wrong, (iii) either the rest of the vellum was somehow supposed to warn you that orange was death, or it's a red herring and you were only meant to guess. Bit unsatisfactory really! I should clarify to say that you do have to follow the text as-written in (200) and use Diagram 1 as-is if you want to be able to win the puzzle in the book 'properly'. It's just that what happens on the first turn doesn't follow the rules that apply to subsequent turns (orange does not kill you; colours change in a different order). Trying to learn anything from the first turn is an exercise in futility. So the diagram isn't 'wrong' if you follow the text in (200) as written, since if you follow the written instructions it's correct for all subsequent turns. But yes, I do think the text in (200) and thus the nonsensical first turn are a result of a mistake when the diagram was printed, leading to a hasty attempt to salvage the situation. As for the parchment: maybe this was left over from some previous, more complex design where different tile types were fatal for different colors (to me the three 'letters' look like they might be symbols suggesting exploding/disintegrating) and never got updated to match the final design. This puzzle is a tragic mess of missed opportunities really.
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Post by Wizard Slayer on Oct 4, 2023 10:24:26 GMT
I should clarify to say that you do have to follow the text as-written in (200) and use Diagram 1 as-is if you want to be able to win the puzzle in the book 'properly'. It's just that what happens on the first turn doesn't follow the rules that apply to subsequent turns (orange does not kill you; colours change in a different order). Trying to learn anything from the first turn is an exercise in futility. So the diagram isn't 'wrong' if you follow the text in (200) as written, since if you follow the written instructions it's correct for all subsequent turns. Sorry, yes! I got so involved in all this I forgot that 200 has the wrong colour change at the beginning. For those trying to follow, this is what I think the diagram in the front cover should be: with the text in 200 then reading orange->green->blue->orange like all the rest. I suppose it sounds plausible that the covers were printed before the pages, meaning the author had time to kludge a 'fix' when the mistake was realised. I doubt reprinting the covers was an option!
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Post by vastariner on Oct 5, 2023 7:47:18 GMT
This puzzle is a tragic mess of missed opportunities really. It also does not work in context. The reader has to keep track of the changing colours and could make a mistake after losing track. But the character would see the colours in front and not face that risk. So if "you" know you need to step on blue next, the reader has a tricky task in doing so, the character does not.
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Post by soulreaver on Oct 7, 2023 13:53:28 GMT
This puzzle is a tragic mess of missed opportunities really. It also does not work in context. The reader has to keep track of the changing colours and could make a mistake after losing track. But the character would see the colours in front and not face that risk. So if "you" know you need to step on blue next, the reader has a tricky task in doing so, the character does not. This is a really good point and something that hadn't occurred to me before - I was more fixated on trying to figure out the rules of the puzzle and didn't even consider what it must look like for the character. Well-spotted! That said, puzzles in a gamebook are often a bit weird like that, though usually in the opposite direction - that is, the player knows more than the player's character would. One of my favourite Fighting Fantasy puzzles (can't remember which book now, but I think it's one of the later ones) requires some algebra/simultaneous equations to solve, and I find it a bit unlikely that our sword-slinging hero from a medieval land would be very well-versed in that kind of thing. There's often a bit of a player/character disconnect there.
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CharlesX
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Post by CharlesX on Oct 7, 2023 14:06:27 GMT
It also does not work in context. The reader has to keep track of the changing colours and could make a mistake after losing track. But the character would see the colours in front and not face that risk. So if "you" know you need to step on blue next, the reader has a tricky task in doing so, the character does not. This is a really good point and something that hadn't occurred to me before - I was more fixated on trying to figure out the rules of the puzzle and didn't even consider what it must look like for the character. Well-spotted! That said, puzzles in a gamebook are often a bit weird like that, though usually in the opposite direction - that is, the player knows more than the player's character would. One of my favourite Fighting Fantasy puzzles (can't remember which book now, but I think it's one of the later ones) requires some algebra/simultaneous equations to solve, and I find it a bit unlikely that our sword-slinging hero from a medieval land would be very well-versed in that kind of thing. There's often a bit of a player/character disconnect there. Do you mean this one from Deathmoor: I haven't read Deathmoor but that sounds hard.
Still, is it as ridiculously hard as those in Tower Of Destruction? I don't remember whether you can complete the music puzzle w\o knowledge of music but it very much stumped me.
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Post by nathanh on Oct 7, 2023 21:01:26 GMT
Just to add to the silliness in ToD, the number of times you have to say Elokinan is pretty funny. Imagine mispronouncing the 90th and having to start all over again.
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CharlesX
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Post by CharlesX on Oct 8, 2023 12:46:12 GMT
Just to add to the silliness in ToD, the number of times you have to say Elokinan is pretty funny. Imagine mispronouncing the 90th and having to start all over again. Elokinian Elokinon Elokiman Even Elokinann
It might be easy if he were called John or Stephen instead of the fantasy equivalent of Peregrine or Aleister.
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Post by vastariner on Oct 8, 2023 14:18:38 GMT
Just to add to the silliness in ToD, the number of times you have to say Elokinan is pretty funny. Imagine mispronouncing the 90th and having to start all over again. Ah, but do you shout
"Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan Elokinan!!"
or "Elokinan one hundred times!!!"
?
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CharlesX
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Post by CharlesX on Oct 8, 2023 14:47:14 GMT
I don't have Tower Of Destruction to hand but it should perhaps either say "Call 'Elokinan' one hundred times" or else "Call 'Elokinan one hundred times'". "I call out to the cat" tends to mean you are speaking to the cat rather than the words "to the cat", unless you heavily imply the unusual usage with a voice that is in italics or quotation marks or something. My apologies for this overly serious write-up comparable to a scholar's essay on Harry Potter or Buffy The Vampire Slayer.
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Post by nathanh on Oct 9, 2023 6:39:04 GMT
I would normally say we should probably stop polluting the Sky Lord thread with Tower of Destruction banter, but "irrelevant and irreverent asides" is on-brand for Sky Lord.
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