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Post by a moderator on Aug 8, 2021 12:28:12 GMT
Never read Creature of havoc or the Trolltooth Wars?
I had the bugged version of COH so I never got far. I've never read the TTW.
So bugged you couldn't even read the bit that comes before section 1?
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Post by petch on Aug 9, 2021 15:26:05 GMT
Another set of one-sided battles there, with poor old Krazic and Minos failing to register a single vote between them, losing 5-0 and 6-0 respectively, and Varcolac managing to secure only a sole consolation vote as he crashes out of the competition by 5 votes to 1.
Winners: Horfak, Zharradan Marr & Myurr
Next up, we have two creations of the same author facing off for the first time, as the villains from Temple of Terror and Trial of Champions clash.
Malbordus vs Lord Carnuss
Chingiz vs Akharis
Lord Azzur vs Feior
4pm Weds 11th is the deadline this time.
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Post by Charles X. on Aug 9, 2021 15:42:55 GMT
Lord Carnuss for suicidally courageously taking on the winner of the Trial Of Champions, pass on the others.
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Post by The Count on Aug 9, 2021 16:41:28 GMT
Lord Carnuss has a more credible backstory.
Chingiz attracts minions that surf on tigers, and incidentally doesn't need to hide behind a ridiculously overpowered Scorpion and then 15 Sk9 St12 Mummies that you fight one after the other, and even more gang battles and / or fights with excessive special rules attached, or have excessively high stats.
Feior is almost as good as you are but not quite.
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Post by petch on Aug 9, 2021 17:46:17 GMT
and then 15 Sk9 St12 Mummies that you fight one after the other I'm trying my best to remain impartial here unless called upon for a casting vote, but god yes I always hated that bit. That book should have come with a health warning that it may cause RSI through excessive dice rolling.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Aug 9, 2021 18:10:13 GMT
Prefer Lord Carnuss to Malbordus. He's callous with the lives of the prisoners and I like the way you get to have a pop at him at the end and get some revenge, especially for that Southerner at the end of the arena fight. That whole section reminds me of Spartacus, and the Southerner reminds me of the African gladiator in the film.
I suppose Akharis over Chingiz. I know virtually nothing of the latter even though I've played the book a few times.
Lord Azzur doesn't feature much in the old original books does he? His careless coach driver nearly runs you over in City of Thieves... and his backstory of 'pirate lord made good' appears in Titan and he's mentioned in AFF Blacksand. He's in the newer books but they just don't stick in my mind as well. Feior is an incredibly powerful sorceror, of the sort that can turn you inside out with the wave of a hand whilst barely batting an eyelid. He has plans of conquest, an army, command of a dragon, and in true style tries to run for it when beaten. Does he turn to evil early on in the story, did he ever have a chance to choose good during the course of BVP? Yeah I'll go for Feior.
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Post by Charles X. on Aug 9, 2021 18:11:28 GMT
and then 15 Sk9 St12 Mummies that you fight one after the other I'm trying my best to remain impartial here unless called upon for a casting vote, but god yes I always hated that bit. That book should have come with a health warning that it may cause RSI through excessive dice rolling. The Wizard edition and the Puffin edition are practically two different books, just like the revised edition we have here. TTBOMK they didn't change that bit though.
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Post by tyrion on Aug 9, 2021 19:00:18 GMT
Lord Carnuss, killing off dozens of slaves just to get back at his brother. I'm pretty sure I didn't do that when my brother got a new mountain bike. If the choice had been Leesha rather than Malbordus, it might have been different.
Akharis, if only because mummies are cool.
Feior, although Azzur is in more books, he still comes across as a cookie cutter bad guy, whereas you are drip fed bits and pieces of information about Feior throughout the book.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 9, 2021 19:09:59 GMT
Carnuss - a villain you love to hate and actually evil compared with Sukumvit. Akharis - very unfair but interesting final confrontation. Chingiz is pretty lame for having family issues when he's on the verge of greatness. Azzur - still hoping that one day we get to see his attribute scores along with Zanbar Bone and Zharradan Marr.
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Post by philsadler on Aug 9, 2021 19:55:13 GMT
Malbordus, because he was a reasonable boss and not ridiculous like Razaak.
Lord Azzur because he does that thing that all good villains seem to do: covers his face in a quite cool way.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,458
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 9, 2021 20:11:49 GMT
Chingiz attracts minions that surf on tigers I don't think Beshbalik can really be described as a minion, I think he's very much his own boss.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,458
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 9, 2021 20:21:28 GMT
Malbordus has zero personality. Lord Carnuss is an absolute bastard and his "So be it!" is very bad-ass so he wins this one for me.
Chingiz goes to great lengths to make himself king - has Segrek murdered, hushes up his death, tries to steal all the medallions and sends assassins far and wide to kill the Select. And then the betrayer ends up betrayed and is reduced to a pitiful, almost sympathetic figure. Much more interesting than Akharis.
Lord Azzur sure gets a lot of build up, being mentioned in several books before he finally gets to be the big bad. But evil twin Feior is just much more intriguing so he wins this one for me.
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Post by peasantscribbler on Aug 10, 2021 0:58:45 GMT
I'm pretty sure that Malbordus would end up becoming Carnuss's lackey. I don't think Malbordus has the personality to succeed as an independent boss. Carnuss's power is great wealth, and it is more than a match for Malbordus's sorcery.
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Post by Peter on Aug 11, 2021 10:37:57 GMT
Carnuss because he seemed believable as an arrogant rich guy, whereas Malbordus was just evil without personality.
Pass on the second one.
Lord Azzur because I pictured him as Lord Vetinari of Ankh-Morepork, in charge of a city that functions only due to its disfunctionality.
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Post by petch on Aug 11, 2021 15:45:41 GMT
Perhaps the most intriguing set of results in the competition so far (well they are to me anyway!). Carnuss secures more votes than any other contender to date and crushes Malbordus by a gaping 8-1 margin. Akharis joins his undead brethren Lord Mortis and Count Heydrich in the next round after a comparatively low-scoring victory of 3-2 over Chingiz.
Lord Azzur was actually my dark horse pick to win this whole thing - goes to show what I know. He falls at the first hurdle after being eliminated by Feior 4-3, a result which incidentally keeps Paul Mason in the 100% club, with all of the characters from his books winning their battles so far.
Winners: Lord Carnuss, Akharis & Feior
On the subject of said club, the creations of both Stephen Hand and Steve Jackson also each boast a 100% win rate up until now, but one of those authors must lose their seat at that exclusive table following the upcoming encounters as Moonrunner's notorious war criminal takes on the House of Hell's infernal guardian. Paul Mason's place is also under threat as The Crimson Tide's Bandit Leader goes up against a rare appearance from a representative of the forces of good in this competition in Yaztromo. And the grotesque mutant abomination from Beneath Nightmare Castle opposes not Jim Morrison but the parasitically compelled reptilian fiend from the pen of Ian Livingstone.
Karam Gruul vs Manvers / The Hell Demon
Yaztromo vs Bandit Leader
Xakhaz vs The Lizard King
The closing date for the votes for this penultimate set of fixtures from Round 1 is 4pm Fri 13th.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 11, 2021 16:29:30 GMT
Gruul Yaztromo Lizard King
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 11, 2021 16:49:11 GMT
Abstein. The bandit leader because Yaztromo doesn't help you enough in COTS. Xakhaz hands-down.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Aug 11, 2021 17:22:24 GMT
Karam Gruul is a brilliant villain. He’s like a Fu Manchu in the Old World with a backstory of being a war criminal. His organisation has tentacles throughout the city with all sorts of agents working for it, he has his own brand of sorcery which he combines with technology, he sets traps and sends assassins, and uses a body double. I really do like the way you unknowingly meet the demon in House of Hell but only realise who and what he is at the end. I also like the way the demon takes the form of the butler, not Drumer himself. That and the high stats, the way it transforms and can only be killed with a certain weapon make it a good baddie, but I’m going for Karam Gruul here.
The Bandit Leader makes the start of FF47 a very dramatic one and his presence is felt throughout the book (by me anyway) as someone you need to find and stop. If he is killed in battle and the mask taken off you find he has no face, just a load of raw flesh. The mask seems to make its wearer into an avatar of aggression and cruelty which goes on and on as the new owner takes the mask from the old. There’s always something disturbing about someone who is not in control of his own actions and ruled by some malign presence. But I’ll vote for Yaztromo – a sometimes grumpy wizard with a sweet tooth living in a tower by the woods. One of the big characters of FF.
I’ll vote for Xakhaz over the Lizard King, but only just. He’s a load of stolen body parts formed into a mass of limbs and bodyfat with a head bobbling about on the top with a squeaky voice. Lovely!
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Post by The Count on Aug 11, 2021 17:23:22 GMT
Manvers / The Hell Demon - he offers you a cheese course following your meal.
Bandit Leader - wasn't captured by an easy to kill Daemonic Servant and doesn't keep forgetting that he sent you up through a resetting forest
The Lizard King - has a pet cat
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Post by tyrion on Aug 11, 2021 17:24:18 GMT
Manvers/hell demon, as you initially expect the master of the house to be the one in charge.
Yaztromo, I don't think the bandit leader is the real enemy in the book.
Xakhaz, although lizard men are cool.
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Post by philsadler on Aug 11, 2021 22:38:15 GMT
The Hell Demon is so cool that I included him in two of my own books.
Yaztromo is a little overused by IL, but he's still a good and friendly character (unless you attack him).
The Lizard King has a Gonchog on his head.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,458
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 12, 2021 11:56:50 GMT
I take it 'Manvers' is a spoiler-friendly code name for you-know-who?
Assuming that is the case, I'm going to vote for Karam Gruul - he just has a lot more personality.
The Bandit Leader looked cool but he's more an image for your character to fixate on than a full character in his own right. Yaztromo definitely wins this one.
I always find Xakhaz gets a bit overshadowed by Senyakhaz. The Lizard King wins this because he has the courage to walk around naked.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 12, 2021 15:31:05 GMT
I always find Xakhaz gets a bit overshadowed by Senyakhaz. The Lizard King wins this because he has the courage to walk around naked. Yeah, Senyakhaz would've been a much better main villain. The Lizard King is wearing a Gonchong though...or is it the other way round?
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Aug 12, 2021 19:52:05 GMT
...as you initially expect the master of the house to be the one in charge. Have you read the abridged version of House of Hell in Warlock 3 magazine? Steve Jackson really is quite devious in his gamebooks... I don't think the bandit leader is the real enemy in the book. Right! The true enemy is the political system of absolutist monarchy – a self-perpetuating autocracy - which, thanks to its concentrating supreme executive power in the hands of a distant and ill-advised 'King', allows peasants and workers to be despoiled, slaughtered and enslaved by marauding bands of bandits. And all the while denying them the right to armed self-defence or the formation of local militias imbued with class-consciousness! Democracy and justice are denied by corrupt local government and we see brother-comrade Merzei, (Voice of the People) sidelined in favour of a Rasputin-like figure who has undue influence over the single biggest point of failure in the system – namely Maior himself! And if by the end of the book (having saved the land from the arch-lobbyist Pantu!) you have the temerity to strike down that masked mass-murdering maniac who killed your own flesh and blood, then truly we see the violence inherent in the system as Maior kills you with ‘his face is twisted in contempt ...’ Not as much as the contempt I have for you and your system Maior, not as much as that...
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Post by The Count on Aug 13, 2021 0:04:27 GMT
I don't think the bandit leader is the real enemy in the book. Right! The true enemy is the political system of absolutist monarchy – a self-perpetuating autocracy - which, thanks to its concentrating supreme executive power in the hands of a distant and ill-advised 'King', allows peasants and workers to be despoiled, slaughtered and enslaved by marauding bands of bandits. And all the while denying them the right to armed self-defence or the formation of local militias imbued with class-consciousness! Democracy and justice are denied by corrupt local government and we see brother-comrade Merzei, (Voice of the People) sidelined in favour of a Rasputin-like figure who has undue influence over the single biggest point of failure in the system – namely Maior himself! And if by the end of the book (having saved the land from the arch-lobbyist Pantu!) you have the temerity to strike down that masked mass-murdering maniac who killed your own flesh and blood, then truly we see the violence inherent in the system as Maior kills you with ‘his face is twisted in contempt ...’ Not as much as the contempt I have for you and your system Maior, not as much as that... That is one way of interpreting it I suppose... Once I figured out how to win the book, I thought that the real villain was yourself as you set out for bloodthirsty revenge, making yourself no better than the Bandit Leader - and the ending where you take up his "mask" (which I suspect is actually his actual face that you have removed and then put over your own...) and removed yourself from humanity to become a bloodthirsty killer just like him showcases this beautifully. This is one of the things that makes this book so good as it allows each reader to draw out completely different meanings from the backstory, path through the book and various endings - I read somewhere that the "true ending" was even considered by Paul to be where you give up about a third of the way through and become a monk...
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Post by Peter on Aug 13, 2021 7:18:16 GMT
I like the way the Hell Demon is revealed, but I don't know enough about Karam Gruul so I will pass on this one.
Yaztromo was appealing when first introduced, but began to diminish with repeated use. Other people have made convincing arguments about the Bandit Leader, but I am not familiar enough with him, so I will sit on the fence with this one too.
I will vote for the Lizard King though, for the reasons already given - his proud nudity, his pet cat, his mind-controlling companion. Xakhaz is interesting as well as powerful, and would probably win in a fight, but that's not the way I'm voting.
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Post by petch on Aug 13, 2021 15:16:11 GMT
Karam Gruul and the Hell Demon fight it out to a 3-3 stalemate. Both are great encounters to end great books, but my casting vote is going to Gruul – I think bloodbeasthandler summed it up rather nicely.
With trembling fingers, Yaztromo reaches out to remove the bandit leader’s mask, and reveals…his own beardy face. And wins 5-2. In hindsight, it was probably a mistake including the BL as a participant since, as others have observed, he is debatably not the true antagonist of TCT, and further is not so much a character as he is a personification of inchoate rage (or something), and in the context of this competition it was perhaps a little baffling having a gruff but good-natured wizard being pitched in combat against a concept. Still, at least it made for an interesting conversation. Which is obviously why I did it. Cough.
A tense seesawing contest between Xakhaz and the Lizard King ends with the LK edging it by 5 votes to 3. When contacted to enquire whether this result constituted another victory for our saurian overlords, David Icke was unavailable for comment.
Winners: Karam Gruul, Yaztromo & The Lizard King
And so at last we reach the final set of fixtures from Round 1. An extra battle included this time just to round off the bracket. Featured prime time contest today: two Jonathan Green creations, a salty undead seadog and an elementalist, vie for supremacy.
Captain Cinnabar
vs
Balthazar Sturm
The Riddling Reaver
vs
Astragal
Grimslade
vs
Dire Spectre
Baron Sukumvit
vs
Arachnos
The voting deadline, and the start of Round 2, is 4pm Sun 15th.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 13, 2021 15:47:15 GMT
Cinnabar - Sturm sucks so... The Riddling Reaver - one of the best FF villains of all time, and he's not even Evil. Grimslade - has decent bad guy dialogue. Baron Sukumvit - more of a businessman than an evil overlord. He's here to entertain us, as we are there as his entertainment.
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Post by CharlesX on Aug 13, 2021 15:56:03 GMT
Captain Cinnabar sticks in my mind more than Balthazar Sturm; I just think pirates are a bit cool.
I'm a huge fan of the forces of neutrality, and not so much one of the Like Sharp books in which Astragal appears. The Riddling Reaver is great in Fighting Fantasy, so I'm voting for him.
The next one's tough, because although Dire Spectre is in an overlong book, he's one of the best big bads. But some of the references with Grimslade should be in the Childhood Trauma thread, and I like the way he summons an extra-strong demon if you tell him about your valuable (magic) ring. Grimslade.
Pass.
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Post by The Count on Aug 13, 2021 16:27:19 GMT
Captain Cinnabar manages to look both like an evil undead field and a camp panto villain
Astragal can inspire even an assistant rabbit skinner to be a hero
Grimslade makes your ring get hot
Arachnos is more of a mystery than the overused, overrated one
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