Write positive things about the 5 worst-ranked FF gamebooks

[CharlesX]

I challenge you to write positive things about the 5 worst-ranked FF gamebooks under Wilf's gamebook rankings. They are, highest first, Port Of Peril, Eye Of The Dragon, Sky Lord, Gates Of Death, Blood Of The Zombies.
   Port Of Peril has Zagor in it, a Livingstone atmosphere without crazy difficulty and is not just a dungeon crawl with the chance to buy things. Eye Of The Dragon is enjoyable if you don't mind old-school dungeon crawls. Sky Lord is original and out-there and (ahem) is probably enjoyable after taking certain strong substances. Gates Of Death is an effective tribute to FF (although it was later outclassed by Crystal Of Storms) and has rules on weapons which could be borrowed by later FF, solo or RPG. Blood absolutely needs an overhaul in terms of its difficulty and definitely isn't a classic but given those things could be enjoyed like a game in the same way Legend Of Zagor might be.

[nathanh]

Eye of the Dragon is genuinely good. The background section is hilarious. The dungeon design is fine, particularly in that you don't need to collect every plot coupon to win. The difficulty is not unreasonable provided you interpret some of the SKILL bonuses as Attack Strength bonuses instead. I love random no-context dungeon encounters and this certainly doesn't disappoint (favourite one: the mid-fight mercenary). Your companion is pleasant company. The villain continues to be hilarious at the end. The book leaves open the possibility that Yaztromo is lying (presumably to cover up his inability to cure the poison) and you die in agony a few days later. Everybody in this book is delightfully stupid.

Once you get near the end of Sky Lord it is actually rather entertaining to read.

Blood of the Zombies I have only played briefly but it seemed an adequate distraction as long as you have no intention to win.

[The Count]

Blood of the Zombies was part of a botched relaunch and as such is so rare that most people wouldn't know it exists, and its rules aren't actual FF rules so it can be discarded when considering the series that it otherwise tarnishes with its rancid presence.

Eye of the Dragon has generally good artwork and a very striking cover. Plus a random EVIL WIZARD encounter which is the most unintentionally fabulously camp encounter in the entire series

Gates of Death is so utterly abysmal that it makes the dismal Starship Traveller look good

Sky Lord did more for the anti drugs movement than a shitty ditty by a bunch of 80s coke fiends ever could, and foreshadowed the trend for young women to mutilate themselves for attention from a bunch of strangers on what we erroneously call "social media"

Port of Peril is not Gates of Death, Blood of the Zombies or Appointment with F.E.A.R.

[terrysalt]

Sky Lord had some interesting encounters like the tube in your stomach and the minigame at the end where you rotate the discs. My issue with Sky Lord (besides the space battles) was the lack of cohesion. It didn't feel like the pieces fit together, it felt like Martin Allen throwing darts at a board for wacky ideas to shoehorn into the book.

Eye/Blood - I haven't read these in ages so I don't remember them very well. From memory, Eye wasn't bad as such, just very by the numbers. So it's good if you just want something familiar yet different. Blood was an interesting idea. Poorly executed but it's rare to see Ian trying new things so that is commendable in its own right.

Port/Gates - I only received the 4 new books yesterday and I haven't read them yet so I can't really comment one way or the other.

[tyrion]

Port of peril - quite an entertaining quest, lots of different locations to visit.
Eye of the dragon - excellent art. Plus, as the count says, an EVIL WIZARD.
Blood of the zombies - a useful companion. Excellent art.
Sky !ord - if you are in the right frame of mind, can be quite funny.
Gates of death - excellent art. No wait, that's not right. Bum faced demon. Not that either. Silly puns. Nope, no that. Sorry, drawing a blank. Ooh,I've got it. It has a silver spine so I don't accidentally pick it up and start reading it.

[petch]

I'm struggling to think of any redeeming qualities of Eye of the Dragon. It wasn't for me, so I'll just echo the Count's thoughts as well - nice cover. I had good fun with the other 4 though.

The Port of Peril was a nostalgic treat, although it could have done with less Darkwood, more Blacksand. I also like that it featured the closest we've come to a proper confrontation with my favourite Livingstone character (Lord Azzur).

Sky Lord had a strong introduction and concluding section, and the middle may have been a melting pot of disparate ideas as terrysalt says, but some of them were very memorable and entertaining. My favourites were the cosmic sixshooting outlaw jellyfish who talk like Danny Trejo.

I think I might be the lone voice in considering that The Gates of Death is very harshly judged by the majority of forum members here. Higson showed enough respect for the series for me by doing his research and setting his book in mainland Allansia, and while not one of the most memorable of entries, it was engaging enough. And this is probably more reflective of my lack of maturity and taste rather than a redemptive feature of the book, but the bum faced demon did make me chuckle. Ha ha. Bum.

I find Blood of the Zombies a cracking read, in a hilariously OTT, switch-your-brain off 80s action movie kind of way. In fact I'd probably consider it a top-half entry to the series, were it actually playable. Which, admittedly, is a pretty important component of a gamebook.

[Wilf]

Gates Of Death isn't written for us oldies. It's got a fresh and funny new writing style, and encounters that would appeal to kids (such as the Stick Man and the Bum Demon). The plot is decent enough, and there are some moments that are just plain cool (Skill 400 Stamina 800). I think it's a breath of fresh air in the FF world.

It's just such a huge pity it's so very, very broken. If they'd playtested it (or got someone like Jonathan Green to edit it for structural soundness), it would have been so much better. I put it to you that there's nothing wrong with Gates Of Death that couldn't be fixed with a playtester and a proper artist. The actual words are brilliant... but the target audience isn't us. And it needs to not be us. FF needs to engage 7-year-olds if it's going to endure.

I'll let others defend the other four. Sky Lord was a failed experiment. Livingstone has no excuse.

[kieran]

Port of Peril - I like the nice chilled start, exploring a fairly peaceful city, scrounging for food and equipment. It does mean the proper plot takes an absolute age to get going but for some reason I enjoy the earlier stages better

Eye of the Dragon - it's a well-designed dungeon with multiple viable paths

Blood of the Zombies - the streamlined combat system is perfect for a gamebook where you're wading through a sea of weak enemies

Sky Lord - I find it likeably quirky in parts. I particularly like the later stages of the book and the visit to the planet with the tiny robot (even if that is better avoided)

Gates of Death - it has an extremely intimidating villain and some colourful settings and characters

[daredevil123]

The Port of Peril: It's fairer than most of Livingstone's books and the opportunity to boost your Skill to 12 makes a nice change from being permanently stuck with a low Skill score.
Eye of The Dragon: As I've mentioned before, I like having a villain whose goal is just to make some cash rather than take over the world.
Sky Lord: This is hard. I suppose having your Rating increase if you defeat a stronger opponent makes sense? And for better or worse (mostly for worse), it's memorable.
The Gates of Death: It can be completed with minimum stats, as I believe all FF books should be.
Blood of The Zombies: The art is perhaps the best in any FF book.

Would it be worth having an inverse of this thread, with things we dislike about the most popular books? Maybe that's a bit mean-spirited - I like the optimism of this thread!

[sleepyscholar]

Somewhat predictably, I absolutely adore all five of the books mentioned here, because they make my own efforts look good in comparison! It's not every day you get a chance to feel superior to a major TV star (and the last time I had that with Charlie Higson was when I saw The Higsons at university, and he wasn't yet a TV star then).

As the numerous excellent fan works demonstrate, Fighting Fantasy could have been revived with extremely high-quality books. Instead, by prioritising IP ownership, and dodgy celeb efforts, its creators showed contempt for the FF audience at large, and cemented the reputation of the original series -- with the obvious exception of Sky Lord (which gets a special award for coming after my own first book and thus making it look better).

[terrysalt]

I guess it's like The Simpsons. At some point you just have to admit the quality's been gone for a long time and won't be coming back. It's sad to see FF go that way but all good things must come to an end as they say.

[terrysalt]

Nov 23, 2021 23:10:44 GMT daredevil123 said:

Would it be worth having an inverse of this thread, with things we dislike about the most popular books? Maybe that's a bit mean-spirited - I like the optimism of this thread!

The random part at the start of Creature of Havoc is definitely one of mine. I get what Steve was going for but it's amazing how often I just so happened to roll the exact numbers I needed to not die.

[sleepyscholar]

Nov 24, 2021 3:00:06 GMT terrysalt said:

I guess it's like The Simpsons. At some point you just have to admit the quality's been gone for a long time and won't be coming back. It's sad to see FF go that way but all good things must come to an end as they say.

On a bad day, I'd agree with you. But Doctor Who is an instructive counterexample. A couple of nights ago I watched an episode of Chibnall's series, which I had previously felt was a low from which the series could never recover, and it was actually quite good. And Russell T Davies is coming back, so who knows?

The quality of FF could return. It just needs a particular combination of events. I grant you, the likelihood of Ian and Steve setting those events in motion is slim, but that doesn't mean they can't happen!

[terrysalt]

Nov 24, 2021 3:19:53 GMT sleepyscholar said:

Nov 24, 2021 3:00:06 GMT terrysalt said:

I guess it's like The Simpsons. At some point you just have to admit the quality's been gone for a long time and won't be coming back. It's sad to see FF go that way but all good things must come to an end as they say.

On a bad day, I'd agree with you. But Doctor Who is an instructive counterexample. A couple of nights ago I watched an episode of Chibnall's series, which I had previously felt was a low from which the series could never recover, and it was actually quite good. And Russell T Davies is coming back, so who knows?

The quality of FF could return. It just needs a particular combination of events. I grant you, the likelihood of Ian and Steve setting those events in motion is slim, but that doesn't mean they can't happen!

I say our best bet is to ensure the odds of it happening are exactly one in a million then. Because those odds crop up nine times out of ten.

[CharlesX]

Nov 24, 2021 4:07:27 GMT terrysalt said:

Nov 24, 2021 3:19:53 GMT sleepyscholar said:

On a bad day, I'd agree with you. But Doctor Who is an instructive counterexample. A couple of nights ago I watched an episode of Chibnall's series, which I had previously felt was a low from which the series could never recover, and it was actually quite good. And Russell T Davies is coming back, so who knows?

The quality of FF could return. It just needs a particular combination of events. I grant you, the likelihood of Ian and Steve setting those events in motion is slim, but that doesn't mean they can't happen!

I say our best bet is to ensure the odds of it happening are exactly one in a million then. Because those odds crop up nine times out of ten.

Steve has yet to do his new book \ his Sorcery! book (same?) and we've no idea whether he will be as cynical as Ian has been about the quality.

[terrysalt]

I didn't even know he was working on one. A new Sorcery book sounds like a terrible idea though. The story's over, why make a 5th book? I'll give it a chance when it's released but my skepticism is still running pretty high.

[kieran]

I feel FF could certainly recover. There was definitely a lot of potential with Crystal of Storms. If Rhianna Pratchett takes criticisms on board and builds on the positives of the book, I think she could write a very good FF book if she wants.

[dragonwarrior8]

I found it very interesting that a few board members mentioned they hadnt yet played some of the more recent books, as I figured everyone here would be ravenous towards any new FF book. Is it a case of "been there, done that", or maybe not expecting them to be very good? With new books from Dave Morris, Jamie Thomson, and Jonathan Green over the past few months alone (what a time to be alive!) that all have close to or over 1000 sections, it feels like other authors are taking FF to school of late.

Maybe FF needs to evolve? Im not suggesting they necessarily totally ditch the "Skill, Stamina, Luck, 400 sections" template entirely as there is something to be said for that style, and playing them no doubt gives many of us the feeling of visiting a long time friend. But perhaps they do need to introduce a new Sorcery-style multi-book series set on Titan, with intricate magic system and double the amount of sections found in the regular FF books.

[The Count]

Nov 23, 2021 23:10:44 GMT daredevil123 said:

Would it be worth having an inverse of this thread, with things we dislike about the most popular books? Maybe that's a bit mean-spirited - I like the optimism of this thread!

I, of course, like that idea.

[a moderator]

Nov 24, 2021 17:44:22 GMT dragonwarrior8 said:

Maybe FF needs to evolve? Im not suggesting they necessarily totally ditch the "Skill, Stamina, Luck, 400 sections" template entirely as there is something to be said for that style, and playing them no doubt gives many of us the feeling of visiting a long time friend. But perhaps they do need to introduce a new Sorcery-style multi-book series set on Titan, with intricate magic system and double the amount of sections found in the regular FF books.

I'm not the best person to comment here, because I haven't yet attempted the three most recent books, my motivation brought low by the double whammy of Blood of the Zombies being so dire and the way the first encounter in The Port of Peril shows the author not to be paying any attention to the rules.

Nevertheless, based on the feedback I've seen from fans who have read the newest FF books, priority needs to go to writing decent adventures. Epic sagas, more complex rules, longer books - none of these will help if the books are unplayable, sloppily written, and/or just plain awful.

[vastariner]

Port Of Peril: we get to explore a bit more of Blacksand.

Eye Of The Dragon: we see what would happen if someone did a remix of a primitive early attempt at FF.

Sky Lord: the complete bemusement of the whole lot replicates that trying to explore an entire galaxy would require several lifetimes' worth of memory to master.

Gates Of Death: I genuinely enjoyed the quasi-underworld bit.

Blood Of The Zombies: green spine revival.

[bloodbeasthandler]

Port of Peril - epic quest with the return of an old arch-villain at the end. 
Sky Lord - not afraid to have a stab at something different, a different tone. 
Eye of the Dragon - good illustrations. RIP Martin McKenna. 
Gates of Death - journeying through a corner of Allansia I rather like, and has two 'paths' to victory . 
Blood of the Zombies - the setting. In the same way I enjoy some of the old George Romero films and the first couple of Resident Evil games. 

[bloodbeasthandler]

Nov 24, 2021 6:18:58 GMT terrysalt said:

I didn't even know he was working on one. A new Sorcery book sounds like a terrible idea though. The story's over, why make a 5th book? I'll give it a chance when it's released but my skepticism is still running pretty high.

The actual story could be anything. It could be set years after the Crown of Kings and be the revenge of the Archmage (or the Netherworld Demons) on Analand as a whole, or on YOU as the retriever of the Crown, or it could be about the rise of Balthus Dire... anything. 
If it's done by Steve Jackson the chances are it will actually be good and he will have put some thought into it. 
The upcoming Steve J book is about the only glimmer of hope I can realistically see at the moment when it comes to FF. 

What is the alternative? A book by David Walliams which turns out to be a camp and comedic farce set in an unrecognisable Port Blacksand in which he kills off Nicodemus and Azzur and he has burn to the ground for ever and ever amen on paragraph 400? 

[a moderator]

Nov 25, 2021 21:46:04 GMT bloodbeasthandler said:

The upcoming Steve J book is about the only glimmer of hope I can realistically see at the moment when it comes to FF. 

What is the alternative? A book by David Walliams which turns out to be a camp and comedic farce set in an unrecognisable Port Blacksand in which he kills off Nicodemus and Azzur and he has burn to the ground for ever and ever amen on paragraph 400? 

As excluded middles go, that's up there with saying that the Puffin range of FF books consisted of The Warlock of Firetop Mountain and Curse of the Mummy.

[bloodbeasthandler]

Nov 25, 2021 21:56:28 GMT a moderator said:

Nov 25, 2021 21:46:04 GMT bloodbeasthandler said:

The upcoming Steve J book is about the only glimmer of hope I can realistically see at the moment when it comes to FF. 

What is the alternative? A book by David Walliams which turns out to be a camp and comedic farce set in an unrecognisable Port Blacksand in which he kills off Nicodemus and Azzur and he has burn to the ground for ever and ever amen on paragraph 400? 

As excluded middles go, that's up there with saying that the Puffin range of FF books consisted of The Warlock of Firetop Mountain and Curse of the Mummy.

Pay no attention to me, greenspine.

I'm just a bit down in the mouth and seeing a trend - writers (celebrity or otherwise) who know little to nothing of about what they are given to write about, and a modern tendency to take such a world and make massive unwanted changes to it.  

[pip]

Sky Lord is hilarious in a B-movie kind of way. I reckon that was the intent.

[terrysalt]

Nov 25, 2021 22:55:24 GMT pip said:

Sky Lord is hilarious in a B-movie kind of way. I reckon that was the intent.

That definitely was the intent but I just feel like it was trying too hard to be wacky and on the whole it didn't work for me. Though as I've said, certain individual encounters were good.

[sleepyscholar]

Nov 25, 2021 22:19:44 GMT bloodbeasthandler said:

Nov 25, 2021 21:56:28 GMT a moderator said:

As excluded middles go, that's up there with saying that the Puffin range of FF books consisted of The Warlock of Firetop Mountain and Curse of the Mummy.

Pay no attention to me, greenspine.

I'm just a bit down in the mouth and seeing a trend - writers (celebrity or otherwise) who know little to nothing of about what they are given to write about, and a modern tendency to take such a world and make massive unwanted changes to it.  

Chibnall?

[thealmightymudworm]

I don't own Blood of the Zombies.

However, we can maybe think of it as testing the genre. I tend to favour gamebooks that follow a formula where, if you play them well, you make brisk or steady progress towards a unambiguous win. There is a happy ending and you can achieve it through brain, heart, persistence and at most a modest amount of luck within the rules. A gamebook might involve tragic scenes along the way but, unlike a regular book, there is an implied promise that there needn't be one at the end. If you are playing, it should be possible to win.

But some of you already think differently. For Slaves of the Abyss, people like the original ending idea of the hero sacrificing themselves. For others, harsh difficulty is justified by the adventure itself. To have a better than 50% chance of defeating Deathtrap Dungeon you pretty much need a Skill of 12 because it's a dungeon full of deathtraps (even if you know where they all are). Someone once praised the error in Creature of Havoc as representing the moment you stop being the creature following the rules blindly and (re)discover your control over your own destiny.

As IL noted, although there have been zombies dotted around FF from the start, there had never been a book devoted to them. Zombie fiction has various tropes associated with it. Often it does not have a happy ending and no one survives – some merely outlive others. Some think that zombies represent Death itself: each is slow, stupid and individually weak and you can outrun, dodge and fight off countless iterations. But in the end you will be unlucky, careless or simply too tired. You cannot avoid death forever.

So that brings us to BotZ. There is apparently a route through the book which you can survive, but nobody ever has. There is no particular place on this true path which is certain to be fatal, but passing each crunch point merely brings you closer to the next and cumulatively they will be fatal.

Clearly this is a metaphor for life. You begin as a child with an absurdly naïve hope that death is not for you, then experience teaches you that mere engagement is deadly.

I give you Blood of the Zombies: unsurpassed, groundbreaking, literary triumph for the ages.

[CharlesX]

Nov 28, 2021 18:38:54 GMT thealmightymudworm said:

I don't own Blood of the Zombies.

However, we can maybe think of it as testing the genre. I tend to favour gamebooks that follow a formula where, if you play them well, you make brisk or steady progress towards a unambiguous win. There is a happy ending and you can achieve it through brain, heart, persistence and at most a modest amount of luck within the rules. A gamebook might involve tragic scenes along the way but, unlike a regular book, there is an implied promise that there needn't be one at the end. If you are playing, it should be possible to win.

But some of you already think differently. For Slaves of the Abyss, people like the original ending idea of the hero sacrificing themselves. For others, harsh difficulty is justified by the adventure itself. To have a better than 50% chance of defeating Deathtrap Dungeon you pretty much need a Skill of 12 because it's a dungeon full of deathtraps (even if you know where they all are). Someone once praised the error in Creature of Havoc as representing the moment you stop being the creature following the rules blindly and (re)discover your control over your own destiny.

As IL noted, although there have been zombies dotted around FF from the start, there had never been a book devoted to them. Zombie fiction has various tropes associated with it. Often it does not have a happy ending and no one survives – some merely outlive others. Some think that zombies represent Death itself: each is slow, stupid and individually weak and you can outrun, dodge and fight off countless iterations. But in the end you will be unlucky, careless or simply too tired. You cannot avoid death forever.

So that brings us to BotZ. There is apparently a route through the book which you can survive, but nobody ever has. There is no particular place on this true path which is certain to be fatal, but passing each crunch point merely brings you closer to the next and cumulatively they will be fatal.

Clearly this is a metaphor for life. You begin as a child with an absurdly naïve hope that death is not for you, then experience teaches you that mere engagement is deadly.

I give you Blood of the Zombies: unsurpassed, groundbreaking, literary triumph for the ages.

Or it's a piece of crap, right? 👍
   OK, that was more than a bit cheap and facetious. My point is, lots of books touch people's heartstrings, books like Twilight, Fifty Shades Of Grey, Battlefield Earth. Atlas Shrugged has probably had a phenomenal influence on middle-class capitalists. But from what I read (I had to give up after just a hundred pages), truthfully, it's really bad.
   And that's it, truth.. I guess I have to give these 'awful' works credit for challenging my very thoughts and my notions of what makes a good story.
   I still think they're rubbish.