Write negative things about the 5 best-ranked FF gamebooks

[CharlesX]

After at least two people suggested this sister thread, I'm giving it a shot. It's going to be harder than praising the worst-ranked gamebooks, of course.
   So, the challenge is, write at least one, it not more, flaw\failure, criticism\problem, with some of the highest-ranked FF gamebooks under Wilf's thread. In order of competitiveness, they are Slaves Of The Abyss, Legend Of The Shadow Warriors, Moonrunner, Howl Of The Werewolf, Seige Of Sardath.
   Slaves Of The Abyss a lot hangs\pivots on the roll for Spitting Fly. I would have preferred the more downbeat ending Paul Mason wanted before being pressurized forced into a happy ending. I agree with Champskees Creature Of Havoc is a marginally better book, and I think if we didn't have had memories about the missing reference words, COH might be higher up.
   Legend Of The Shadow Warriors has a lot of side quests and variety, but in actuality one path is a lot easier than others, so in some ways it's comparable to Keep Of The Lich-Lord (although even we've criticism LOTSW is definitely better). There are a couple of mazes which feel a bit pointless with the memorable Smegg (Red Dwarf methinks) and the irritating Nightmare Master or whom ever he is, where as I recall there's no pattern, guessing, and if you guess wrong you die instantly.
   Moonrunner is a touch easy\simplistic and despite its atmosphere and world-building just isn't my favourite Stephen Hand gamebook.
   Howl Of The Werewolf has the normal J. Green tropes, very long, few friendly or developed characters, effectively mandatory shopping. It's almost impossible to get the Change stat to a dangerous level.
   Seige Of Sardath has a path as linear as Livingstone's, even though the writing is better, even humorous at times. To me, one of the biggest failures of Seige Of Sardath was we didn't see more by the same author. Happy endings  .

[a moderator]

Slaves needlessly contradicts itself in section 166.

SPOILER: Click to show

Enthymesis' advice indicates that in the shifting forest the path with foxgloves on it is always the correct one. Follow this advice at the first two junctions, and at the third one you are forced to take the exit without foxgloves.

Legend has the worst maze in all FF.

On one of the safest paths through Moonrunner, you don't encounter Radu until the climax, making the 'twist' about his identity pointless.

Howl could indeed have given Change rolls a better level of threat.

Siege has too many options that are only there so the author can say words to the effect of, 'Only a moron would try to do that here. Take a stat penalty for being a moron.'

[kieran]

Slaves of The Abyss - well I think I've done enough moaning about its linearity here so I'll say that I always thought

SPOILER: Click to show

having to go back to Kallamehr

was a bit unintuitive.

Legend of The Shadow Warriors - a lot of the subquests take focus away from the main quest. Oh and I second the dark elf maze being awful

Moonrunner - great fun as the first half is, it feels like you could pretty much skip it

Howl of The Werewolf - the pointless Change score and the fact that the various paths through it vary so greatly in length

Siege of Sardath - frequently scolds you for doing reasonable things. Also hate the ISTU puzzle.

[pip]

Siege of Sardath's visual puzzle would be great if we had pre-cut cardboard shapes to help us solve it. But we don't, and surely nobody wants to cut up their book, so solving that puzzle, whichever way you go about it, is more laborious than it should be. That is the one criticism I can think of about this great book.

[The Count]

The answer to the Itsu puzzle in Siege of Sardath doesn't seem clear, and he makes the subsequent fights too easy
Slaves has the pointless killing blow rule that makes combat far too easy for high skilled adventurers
Howl is hideously over rated with unnecessary complexities while also being dumbed down to make it excessively easy
Legend is tainted slightly by the unfunny Smegg
Moonrunner relies too heavily on 80s slasher movie references

[vastariner]

SOTA: you make the best and most logical decision at one point - and it's game over with half the book missed.

LotSW: title is the lazy X of the Y.

Moonrunner: the Belphegor puzzle is wayyyy to easy to have lain unsolved for so long.

HotW: see LotSW.

Siege of Sardath: there's a bit where you make what should be a genius choice to get to the end without risk - but the book cheats on you.

[petch]

Nov 25, 2021 22:50:07 GMT pip said:

Siege of Sardath's visual puzzle would be great if we had pre-cut cardboard shapes to help us solve it. But we don't, and surely nobody wants to cut up their book

Ha, that's exactly what my idiot childhood self did.

[a moderator]

Nov 25, 2021 22:50:07 GMT pip said:

Siege of Sardath's visual puzzle would be great if we had pre-cut cardboard shapes to help us solve it. 

If it had come with pre-cut cardboard shapes, most of them would have been lost by now. And copies of the book that did still have some or all of the shapes would go for obscene prices on eBay. 

[CharlesX]

Nov 25, 2021 22:50:07 GMT pip said:

Siege of Sardath's visual puzzle would be great if we had pre-cut cardboard shapes to help us solve it. But we don't, and surely nobody wants to cut up their book, so solving that puzzle, whichever way you go about it, is more laborious than it should be. That is the one criticism I can think of about this great book.

Photocopy it?

   The gamebook could at least have had a separate reference - maybe an appendix - where it wouldn't have mattered if one cut up the book. Basically telling the reader to cut up the book knowing there is writing on the other side of the page is silly.

[kieran]

Even if you are able to make the cube (or are better than I at visualising such things), the answer isn't all that obvious.

SPOILER: Click to show

IST and 157 don't look that alike and then the U confuses matters further.

[petch]

On the plus side, that puzzle did teach me some basic geometry skills, so I was able to tell my parents that those silly dice books I read did have some kind of educational value.

[pip]

I was not suggesting that having pre-cut cardboard shapes could have been an option. Clearly, the editors wouldn't have agreed to that. Just, this puzzle doesn't work really well in the gamebook format (especially when you have text on the other side). And yes, you can photocopy it, but back when the book was released, most of us didn't have a copier/scanner at home, so that was a hassle. I remember I ended up copying the drawings myself on a blank sheet of paper.

SPOILER: Click to show

To be fair, IST does look like 157 here IMO, but then the U rears its ugly head to confuse us:

[tyrion]

Sota: linear
Lotsw: can be ruined by poor dice rolls with the spear
Mr: can't visit all the locations in one sitting, forcing you to play it multiple times. No, wait, that's not a bad thing.
Sos: don't like the cover. Is that a vampire? Also, I never 'got' this when I was a wee lad.
Hotw: drags on too long.

[natwa]

Slaves of the Abyss: I don't really understand why this was voted the best FF book. Although i don't think it's a  bad book, there is a narrowness about it that a dislike, where instead of getting the chance of exploring right and wrong "directions", you have to things the right way to get to explore much and you also have to do things in the right order both to get to explore much and to have much hope of winning. This means if you don't find out what you are supposed to do you end up repeating the same actions and scenes over and over again instead of getting the chance to figuring our more things through trial and error. And when some of the decisions needed to be taken in order to win seem a bit counterintuitive, it seems like winning has too much to do with knowing or figuring out the way the authors think or just thinking like them in the first place, which was hard for me in this case(but maybe easier for all the people who really love this gamebook). I much prefer Mason books like the Crimson Tide and Black Vein Prophecy, where you get to see and experience more even when you fail and think that way is much more fun. I also think that the maze that you have to go through in order to get valuable information is boring and too easy to fail and also think that the path to victory in general is much too narrow. But I have to admit that I'm glad that the ending was changed, I think that is one of the best things about the book and I do think the ending is one the best FF book endings(and the character still got to sacrifice himself/herself somewhat). Still there are many scenes that I enjoy too, particularly in the second half and if it hadn't been written in such a  narrow"(almost) everything in the excact right order" kind of way, I would probably have enjoyed it a lot  more.

Legend of the Shadow Warriors: This is the only one out of those five books that are in my personal FF top five. Even so, I still think that choosing what would seem like the less logical choice when face with a choice between two symbols early on in the book, gives you great benefits that it's much more difficult winning the book without it, seems like the equivalent of rewarding an RPG character for failing a knowledge check. And this seems to me to be a big flaw in an otherwise great FF gamebook.

Moonrunner:  I don't personally like how much  the book forces you to be on your guard and try to survive all the attempts of the main villain to try to kill you. It kind of scrambled my mind a bit and made it more difficult to come up with a viable strategy to win. I do prefer gamebooks that give me a little more breathing room. And that paranoid "who can you trust" mindset it encourages and the confusion about what will be the smart thing to do that it also can easily lead to, at least it did for me, is not really my cup of tea. I do prefer gamebooks that are a little bit less stressful and confusing to be honest, but then again. Also other people might not find it that stressful or confusing or maybe enjoy gamebooks being stressful and/or confusing. Also, I think you can lose just through unlucky dice rolls(that doesn't involve an actual fight) after capturing the main villain near the end, is a weakness

Howl of the Werewolf is the one where it's most difficult to find anything that I really dislike about it, but then again it is in my FF top 10. If there is one thing that I don't like so much about it, it's that I'm not really a big werewolf fan and I don't really like the big focus(at least when it comes to opponents) on werewolves. I do prefer gamebooks with very varied encounters, like you can find in Spectral Stalkes, Citadel of Chaos and Forest of Doom, to name a few.

Siege of Sardath: I agree that the visual riddle is too hard and also punishing the reader for not knowing(because of not being told by the author) things that your character should know in-game seems to harsh. I also would have preferred if there were less instances of remembering numbers that you have to add together, but then again  remembering numbers and/or adding them together had been used in FF for a long time by then and compared to the visual riddle, it's not that overly difficult(although you could agree that this approach had gotten a little bit old by then, so to speak).

[CharlesX]

Dec 3, 2021 19:50:43 GMT natwa said:

Slaves of the Abyss: I don't really understand why this was voted the best FF book.

I think it's a combination of strong atmosphere and writing, gameplay that is just right in terms of it's difficulty and length, and a skillful, nuanced tone.
   I don't think it's half as good as Legend Of The Shadow Warriors or Creature Of Havoc.

[sleepyscholar]

Dec 3, 2021 19:50:43 GMT natwa said:

Slaves of the Abyss: I don't really understand why this was voted the best FF book. Although i don't think it's a  bad book, there is a narrowness about it that a dislike, where instead of getting the chance of exploring right and wrong "directions", you have to things the right way to get to explore much and you also have to do things in the right order both to get to explore much and to have much hope of winning. This means if you don't find out what you are supposed to do you end up repeating the same actions and scenes over and over again instead of getting the chance to figuring our more things through trial and error. And when some of the decisions needed to be taken in order to win seem a bit counterintuitive, it seems like winning has too much to do with knowing or figuring out the way the authors think or just thinking like them in the first place, which was hard for me in this case(but maybe easier for all the people who really love this gamebook). I much prefer Mason books like the Crimson Tide and Black Vein Prophecy, where you get to see and experience more even when you fail and think that way is much more fun. I also think that the maze that you have to go through in order to get valuable information is boring and too easy to fail and also think that the path to victory in general is much too narrow. But I have to admit that I'm glad that the ending was changed, I think that is one of the best things about the book and I do think the ending is one the best FF book endings(and the character still got to sacrifice himself/herself somewhat). Still there are many scenes that I enjoy too, particularly in the second half and if it hadn't been written in such a  narrow"(almost) everything in the excact right order" kind of way, I would probably have enjoyed it a lot  more.

I agree with this. Bear in mind that it was the authors' first FF. They were still figuring out how to do it, and both came from RPG backgrounds rather than being steeped in solo adventures. I am glad you appreciate the way the ending managed to preserve something of the original idea while sort of acceding to -- or even parodying -- Steve J's demand.

[bloodbeasthandler]

Dec 3, 2021 20:18:40 GMT CharlesX said:

I think it's a combination of strong atmosphere and writing, gameplay that is just right in terms of it's difficulty and length, and a skillful, nuanced tone.

Yes, well put. I like the characters in the book, I like the mystery and the intrigue in it.
Part of the reason for this in my opinion is: 

Dec 4, 2021 13:49:49 GMT sleepyscholar said:

...the authors ... both came from RPG backgrounds...

Also...

Dec 3, 2021 20:18:40 GMT CharlesX said:

I don't think it's half as good as Legend Of The Shadow Warriors or Creature Of Havoc.

I think it's well up there with those books. I'd be delighted if we had books like any of these coming out now.

[natwa]

One thing I'd say in defense of the book is that, at least as long as you get into the mindset of the authors, it's not an especially unfair book. You don't get a large number of unavoidable battles against strong opponents, with no chance of resting in between them and you don't get any really super advanced riddles like the visual one in SOS or the musical one in TOD. You could also argue than it is in fact fairer than the rest of the books by the same author(s) , since you neither have to fail a luck test, figure out a hidden alternative or go through a really tough final fight to win.

And I have to admit I do find in interesting, that compared to the other books by the same author(s), it feels more like a mainstream or "normal"/regular FF book. Unlike TCT and BVP it doesn't use an oriental setting and unlike MH the main character and the story don't start out in a different world. And there's no major special rules that have an actual effect on gameplay, like the codewords and starting out as a young boy rules in TCT or the special abilities codewords in BVP or major breaks with usual FF structure like the lack of introduction in BVP.

Personally, however, I do find it a shame that those aspects are missing or at least have less of a presence in that book, since that originality and tendency to try out new things is probably the thing I enjoy most about those other three books and is part of the reason why at least both BVP and TCT, unlike SOA , are fun to read and play to me, even if they can also be frustrating. And now that I'm no longer a child or teenager, fun is my main criterion for what makes a gamebook good, I don't need the books to be challenging, I'm more concerned with the book having an interesting story that I can take part in and explore and including interesting things that my character can do, like haviing special abilities. But I'm glad that writing this book gave the author(s) the confidence to take more chances in the next books, though in an ideal world, it would have been nice to have those books playtested a little bit more before publishing them, in order to make them a little bit easier and a little bit less frustrating.

[sleepyscholar]

Dec 5, 2021 19:22:27 GMT natwa said:

 in an ideal world, it would have been nice to have those books playtested a little bit more before publishing them, in order to make them a little bit easier and a little bit less frustrating.

Well yes, quite! My only correction to this would probably be to remove the word 'more' (at least if 'playtesting' means 'someone other than the authors checking them out').

[slloyd14]

Moonrunner: There is a point where you need to have one of two skills or you get an autokill. You can gain a skill, but it comes out of nowhere.



Siege of Sardath: Obligatory skill 10 fight. You can get a skill 12 helper, but if you do, they have to fight a skill 11 stamina 17 opponent.



Legend of the Shadow Warriors: Tough combats.



Howl of the Werewolf: Your companion dies.



Slaves of the Abyss: You can't use any of the magical items you find.

[CharlesX]

Dec 13, 2021 11:28:40 GMT slloyd14 said:

Moonrunner: There is a point where you need to have one of two skills or you get an autokill. You can gain a skill, but it comes out of nowhere.



Siege of Sardath: Obligatory skill 10 fight. You can get a skill 12 helper, but if you do, they have to fight a skill 11 stamina 17 opponent.



Legend of the Shadow Warriors: Tough combats.



Howl of the Werewolf: Your companion dies.



Slaves of the Abyss: You can't use any of the magical items you find.

Your skill 12 helper doesn't have to fight, because if you choose carefully the fights you participate in, he is definitely dead by that point. If you don't though, he will be pretty wounded by that point and your chances * aren't great *.

[philsadler]

Howl of the Werewolf: I never got the chance to 'Change' into anything.

[sylas]

Slaves of the Abyss - victory path is fun but far too narrow and I never felt the 'Abyss' part was that interesting. The switch from dealing with political intrigue to an otherworldly expedition is a bit jarring.

Legend of the Shadow Warriors - stereotypical final villain doesn't get enough time to shine.

Moonrunner - what the title means is not brought up frequently enough nor is it integrated much into your character. It is very possible to complete your mission and not have the faintest clue what a Moonrunner is. And as mentioned, being able to skip any encounter with Radu before the final confrontation is annoying from a storytelling perspective.

Howl of the Werewolf - I prefer adventures that are challenging but fair. This was too forgiving and, as others have mentioned, the Change stat is a nice new feature but it is inevitably pointless. Doubling ALL Change increases makes for a more challenging, satisfying game, and lower Serpensa's Skill by 2 (it is needlessly high early game).

Siege of Sardath - again, the victory path is far too narrow. The best actions are often ones that I would not normally choose to do because logic. Things like repeatedly striking a stone slab with my sword, challenging a demi-goddess to a fight, running away from a shape-shifter, drawing a bow and arrow when many arrows are already trained on me. And that puzzle-box...urgh.

[terrysalt]

Dec 29, 2021 23:37:34 GMT sylas said:

Siege of Sardath - again, the victory path is far too narrow. The best actions are often ones that I would not normally choose to do because logic. Things like repeatedly striking a stone slab with my sword, challenging a demi-goddess to a fight, running away from a shape-shifter, drawing a bow and arrow when many arrows are already trained on me. And that puzzle-box...urgh.

The striking of the stone slab is hinted at. You get told to knock three times to open it. The idea (as I understood it) is that it's deliberately not something you would try randomly so that you need to find that hint.

[sleepyscholar]

Dec 29, 2021 23:37:34 GMT sylas said:

Slaves of the Abyss - victory path is fun but far too narrow and I never felt the 'Abyss' part was that interesting. The switch from dealing with political intrigue to an otherworldly expedition is a bit jarring.

At that stage in my life I was massively influenced by the first A Chinese Ghost Story movie, and one thing I particularly liked in it was the way it seems to start as a subtle, relatively low-key ghost story, but then, some way in, Swordsman Yan says 'Right, we'll storm hell!' and it goes completely bonkers. So a 'jarring' effect was probably precisely what I was going for!

I suspect current me would actually agree with your opinion of the Abyss, though. And since it never got mentioned again in the books, several iterations of past me would, too.

To be honest, I don't have much recollection of the Abyss, but what I do is basically just the Moon. Or maybe, if I'm being more generous, the Clangers' planet...

[sylas]

Dec 30, 2021 7:26:39 GMT terrysalt said:

Dec 29, 2021 23:37:34 GMT sylas said:

Siege of Sardath - again, the victory path is far too narrow. The best actions are often ones that I would not normally choose to do because logic. Things like repeatedly striking a stone slab with my sword, challenging a demi-goddess to a fight, running away from a shape-shifter, drawing a bow and arrow when many arrows are already trained on me. And that puzzle-box...urgh.

The striking of the stone slab is hinted at. You get told to knock three times to open it. The idea (as I understood it) is that it's deliberately not something you would try randomly so that you need to find that hint.

I understood what you had to do and why, but the way it is presented makes it sound like you'll be denting your sword a LOT. There's no option to simply 'knock' because the author is trying too hard to disguise this action so what we end up with is hit it or don't hit it. Perhaps a little rewording would work or maybe a codeword would suffice.

[sylas]

Dec 30, 2021 12:44:07 GMT sleepyscholar said:

Dec 29, 2021 23:37:34 GMT sylas said:

Slaves of the Abyss - victory path is fun but far too narrow and I never felt the 'Abyss' part was that interesting. The switch from dealing with political intrigue to an otherworldly expedition is a bit jarring.

At that stage in my life I was massively influenced by the first A Chinese Ghost Story movie, and one thing I particularly liked in it was the way it seems to start as a subtle, relatively low-key ghost story, but then, some way in, Swordsman Yan says 'Right, we'll storm hell!' and it goes completely bonkers. So a 'jarring' effect was probably precisely what I was going for!

I suspect current me would actually agree with your opinion of the Abyss, though. And since it never got mentioned again in the books, several iterations of past me would, too.

To be honest, I don't have much recollection of the Abyss, but what I do is basically just the Moon. Or maybe, if I'm being more generous, the Clangers' planet...

I never really found the transition to the storming of hell that jarring tbh. We already had the insane battle with the Tree Spirit Demon not long before so it felt like more of the same. Love the movie btw! Swordsman Yen is one of my favourite characters and it helps that I can watch it in the original Chinese language. 

I think you would have done a hell of a job turning something like this Wuxia meets Evil Dead genre into a gamebook

[CharlesX]

Dec 30, 2021 22:19:32 GMT sylas said:

Dec 30, 2021 7:26:39 GMT terrysalt said:

The striking of the stone slab is hinted at. You get told to knock three times to open it. The idea (as I understood it) is that it's deliberately not something you would try randomly so that you need to find that hint.

I understood what you had to do and why, but the way it is presented makes it sound like you'll be denting your sword a LOT. There's no option to simply 'knock' because the author is trying too hard to disguise this action so what we end up with is hit it or don't hit it. Perhaps a little rewording would work or maybe a codeword would suffice.

IIRC you are given a hint if you test your luck successfully, in the hope you might just guess what to do - a voice says "Give the sign of summoning, my love, and enter", my point being you couldn't guess if you were given a codeword.

[sylas]

Dec 30, 2021 22:32:12 GMT CharlesX said:

Dec 30, 2021 22:19:32 GMT sylas said:

I understood what you had to do and why, but the way it is presented makes it sound like you'll be denting your sword a LOT. There's no option to simply 'knock' because the author is trying too hard to disguise this action so what we end up with is hit it or don't hit it. Perhaps a little rewording would work or maybe a codeword would suffice.

IIRC you are given a hint if you test your luck successfully, in the hope you might just guess what to do - a voice says "Give the sign of summoning, my love, and enter", my point being you couldn't guess if you were given a codeword.

That is right but what I'm saying is even if you know for certain how to give the Sign, your only viable option is to hit the stone slab with your sword three times which seems like crazy if you know that 3 light taps will do. Randomly guessing it right is also awkward as you'll be performing the same illogical action 3 times. That's what I meant by the wording sounding off even though I appreciate the puzzle for what it is.

[sleepyscholar]

Dec 30, 2021 22:28:52 GMT sylas said:

Dec 30, 2021 12:44:07 GMT sleepyscholar said:

At that stage in my life I was massively influenced by the first A Chinese Ghost Story movie, and one thing I particularly liked in it was the way it seems to start as a subtle, relatively low-key ghost story, but then, some way in, Swordsman Yan says 'Right, we'll storm hell!' and it goes completely bonkers. So a 'jarring' effect was probably precisely what I was going for!

I suspect current me would actually agree with your opinion of the Abyss, though. And since it never got mentioned again in the books, several iterations of past me would, too.

To be honest, I don't have much recollection of the Abyss, but what I do is basically just the Moon. Or maybe, if I'm being more generous, the Clangers' planet...

I never really found the transition to the storming of hell that jarring tbh. We already had the insane battle with the Tree Spirit Demon not long before so it felt like more of the same. Love the movie btw! Swordsman Yen is one of my favourite characters and it helps that I can watch it in the original Chinese language. 

I think you would have done a hell of a job turning something like this Wuxia meets Evil Dead genre into a gamebook

You mean the Virtual Reality book Red Dragon Pass might have had an audience after all?

Though you probably would have found the timeslip bit where the hero is 'reincarnated' in the midst of the Communists vs Guomintang vs Warlords a bit... jarring!