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Post by CharlesX on Dec 22, 2021 19:43:23 GMT
Then the thread title should probably be altered as well. Done!
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 22, 2021 21:02:59 GMT
* checks poll *
* discovers Sky Lord now has 2 votes *
* dies of shock *
I agree with Greenspine - it's great to know some people out there enjoy Sky Lord. It's somehow more original than Blood, and more challenging than Gates, or more (challenging) than Gates would be if it weren't a broken mess.
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Post by peasantscribbler on Dec 22, 2021 22:18:07 GMT
I changed one of my votes to House of Hell, but I think it's out of place in this poll. I think we should get some things straight. In no particular order: I deeply regret not including Star Strider, just as much as deciding to include or exclude House. Or more. . This is not an SF poll, but rather an SF\present-day poll. So, this makes the decision to include House seem more reasonable. If you'd prefer to treat it as a straight SF gamebook poll, do that, but that is not the title. I could have went further and done a poll of all the FF set on non-Titan worlds, which would have been even bigger and probably required top 3 instead of top 2, I chose a compromise. As this poll is quite successful ( ) in spite of me not even getting it right the first time I posted it, I could do exactly that in the new year, and\or a straight SF poll which would not include Blood and HOH. Fair enough. For the record, I voted for House of Hell and Appointment with F.E.A.R. If it was a straight SF poll, I would have voted for Appointment and Rebel Planet. If it was a straight modern day setting poll, I would have voted for House and Appointment.
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Post by nathanh on Dec 22, 2021 23:32:08 GMT
Originally I voted for House of Hell and Robot Commando, but then I checked my scoring spreadsheet and Rebel Planet actually came out ahead of Robot Commando, because the latter isn't all that much fun to pick up and read just for general entertainment. These three are very close though.
The other books are either meh (Space Assassin, Sky Lord), I've only got in app form so can't fully assess (Starship Traveller, Blood of the Zombies), is an impressively-designed gamebook that nonetheless is frustrating to read (FEAR), or I haven't got them or only had them when I was young and therefore have forgotten the details (I remember not liking Star Strider though).
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Post by The Count on Dec 23, 2021 1:15:34 GMT
If you want to muddy the waters some more, there are some who view Spectral Stalkers as a sci fi book, citing the future Titan world as concrete evidence if the main plot isn't enough
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Post by The Count on Dec 23, 2021 1:17:23 GMT
That's as good as a signed confession. Not that there's anything to confess, obviously. I started a thread with my own personal rankings last year so its not a secret that I rate Chasms above most of the supposed fan faves
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 23, 2021 6:43:36 GMT
If you want to muddy the waters some more, there are some who view Spectral Stalkers as a sci fi book, citing the future Titan world as concrete evidence if the main plot isn't enough Another hard call. Spectral Stalkers arguably is SF, but I've always thought of it as more surreal than anything else, plus there's already 10 on the list. I intend to include it together with Legend Of Zagor and Gates Of Death in a future poll on Non-Titan FF. I'll admit to a personal partisan bias against Spectral Stalkers because I think it's too easy, although most FF fans have a very high opinion of it. And yes, that could sound like hypocrisy when I've already included Starship Traveller, but that was written a lot earlier, by one of FF's founding fathers.
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Post by Peter on Dec 23, 2021 8:20:34 GMT
Appointment with FEAR – I was never into superheroes. Blood of the Zombies – haven't read it yet. Rebel Planet – a very close third. Rings of Kether – a close fourth. Robot Commando – I was into dinosaurs when I was younger, but when this came out I was just a bit too old to be excited by "dinosaurs and robots!" Sky Lord – don't like it. Space Assassin – I was hoping for a far-future interactive adventure, but this turned out to be too lightweight to draw me in. Starship Traveller – I wanted to like this when it came out, but after a while I realised that I didn't. Star Strider – not absorbing.
The other two - my favourites from the list.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Dec 23, 2021 9:42:30 GMT
Starship Traveller – I wanted to like this when it came out, but after a while I realised that I didn't. Starship traveller looks and feels rushed in terms of the writing of the book and the illustrations. It is obviously inspired by Star Trek but it fails to incorporate what makes old Star Trek so compelling. The ships' officers are mere stats to be rolled up at the start of the book. They have no personality, they do not even have names, they are utterly replaceable. Where is the clash of personalities like we saw between Spock and Bones? Where's Scotty's 'She cannae tek any more, cap'n!' What would take an entire episode of ST to cover (like the planet of androids, say, or the one where the weather is going haywire) is done and dusted in about ..what .. 8-10 paragraphs (if that!) of a bit of choice here and there. And then a rush on to the next one, like going up a dungeon corridor opening rooms dealing with traps/killing everything... then closing the door and moving up the corridor again. Star Trek used to make you think about things, including morals and ethics. I don't think Starship Traveller does at all. Star Strider – not absorbing. And yet looking at the premise it should be absorbing. It ought to be like Bladerunner, a 'film noir' in a sci-fi setting.
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 24, 2021 21:11:19 GMT
This poll has told us some things. It's quite a task to define what SF FF and present-day FF and non-Titan FF are, one I possibly definitely underestimated. We've got some favourites, with Appointment with F.E.A.R.dividing fans and Rings Of Kether amongst those doing well. If House Of Hell is considered under the thread title SF and the poll title SF/present-day it polls well. Space Assassin just escapes being in the bottom two, which is great, and Sky Lord has done well, which is unexpected. Star Strider, whatever it's merits, is not our favourite SF FF. And Blood Of The Zombies is in the skip with no votes . Thanks loads everyone for participating, this has been really good. 👍 .
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Post by The Count on Dec 25, 2021 0:03:28 GMT
Of the Sci Fi books:
FEAR is abysmal Blood is an abomination Freeway is also dire House of Hell is good but artificially requires you to have certain stats where even if you do everything right, you lose for not rolling a certain number... Rebel Planet is ok but the last third is generic crud Rings would work better as a modern day detective story Robot is great for kiddies, as a 12 year old, I found it boring so now it is even more tedious Sky Lord is fun! Space Assassin would be better without the planet section Starship is an unfinished mess, and a boring one at that Star Strider is good but not great, the best bit is the instant death for following the tube route that in real life would be pointless
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 25, 2021 11:44:30 GMT
If you want to muddy the waters some more, there are some who view Spectral Stalkers as a sci fi book, citing the future Titan world as concrete evidence if the main plot isn't enough Possibly - arguably - Spectral Stalkers is SF, but it's deeply surreal, as much as it is SF. I don't share the high opinion of it among FF fans, as I think it's thin, short and easy. It's definitely original, and in a good way. If you do consider Spectral Stalkers FF, and I think it's 50 50, it's the only good SF FF to be published after Sky Lord.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,547
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Dec 25, 2021 12:46:53 GMT
My ranking:
1. House of Hell - so intricately designed, sadistic and genuinely disturbing in places 2. Appointment with FEAR - 4 separate solutions, another complex design and full of goofy Silver Age references and 80s pop culture cheese 3. Rebel Planet - plenty of freedom and nice little details in the first half make up for a tedious second half 4. Rings of Kether - lots of freedom in this one and a pretty unique vibe to it but terse writing and a feeling you're just bungling the whole time let it down 5. Star Strider - love the setting, pity the first half is pointless and the second half too unforgiving 6. Space Assassin - basic but fun "dungeon in space" with great combat rules and some quirky encounters. A dull maze and bad puzzles let it down. 7. Freeway Fighter - some decent set pieces but too repetetive and just doesn't make enough of the setting 8. Sky Lord - genuinely funny and creative in places, but other parts seem bland and rushed. Way too unforgiving to be much fun unless you cheat 9. Robot Commando - travel between empty cities and battle occasional dinosaurs and other robots using combat rules that favour flimsy robots over tougher ones. Lots of freedom at least. 10. Starship Traveller - travel between interesting but underdeveloped planets with a personality-less crew until flying into a black hole out of boredom and a tiny chance it might take you home. 11. Blood of the Zombies - decent writing and illustrations and a fun and fast combat system can't save a linear, repetetive and technically impossible mess.
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Post by daredevil123 on Dec 25, 2021 18:06:49 GMT
My ranking: 8. Sky Lord - genuinely funny and creative in places, but other parts seem bland and rushed. Way too unforgiving to be much fun unless you cheat 9. Robot Commando - travel between empty cities and battle occasional dinosaurs and other robots using combat rules that favour flimsy robots over tougher ones. Lots of freedom at least. I know a lot of people don't like Robot Commando, but ranking it below Sky Lord? That's harsh...
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,547
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Dec 25, 2021 19:57:01 GMT
I know a lot of people don't like Robot Commando, but ranking it below Sky Lord? That's harsh... I struggle to remember anything of note about Robot Commando. Sky Lord is undoubtedly the worse designed book, but it is at least memorable even if not aways for the right reasons.
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 25, 2021 20:45:38 GMT
I know a lot of people don't like Robot Commando, but ranking it below Sky Lord? That's harsh... I struggle to remember anything of note about Robot Commando. Sky Lord is undoubtedly the worse designed book, but it is at least memorable even if not aways for the right reasons. I'd rather play a bland but well-designed FF such as Freeway Fighter or Space Assassin than a 'memorable' one such as Crypt Of The Sorceror or Chasms Of Malice. But then, I often prefer gamebooks with difficulty that is limited or non-existent, if the gameplay and world-building is strong.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,547
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Dec 25, 2021 21:24:35 GMT
I'd rather play a bland but well-designed FF In Robot Commando's case, while it is better designed than Sky Lord, I wouldn't say it's all that well designed. The robot combat doesn't function the way Steve Jackson envisioned it based on a few references to some robots supposedly being more suited to combat than others when the reverse is true.
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Post by tyrion on Dec 25, 2021 21:40:47 GMT
House of Hell is good but artificially requires you to have certain stats where even if you do everything right, you lose for not rolling a certain number... As opposed to chasms of malice, where unless you roll a random number bigger than another random number, several times and regardless of stats, you lose? Get a grip. At least you know you might as well not bother starting house of hell if your fear score isn't high enough.
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Post by terrysalt on Dec 25, 2021 23:00:30 GMT
I'd rather play a bland but well-designed FF In Robot Commando's case, while it is better designed than Sky Lord, I wouldn't say it's all that well designed. The robot combat doesn't function the way Steve Jackson envisioned it based on a few references to some robots supposedly being more suited to combat than others when the reverse is true. The thing I like about Robot Commando is that having all the different robots to choose from puts more game into the gamebook. Most FFs have very few tactical decisions to make, this gives you something to weigh the pros and cons of. If you die in combat, on your next attempt you can try a different robot and try to optimise your chances that way as opposed to just "roll better" which is your only solution in most other books.
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Post by The Count on Dec 26, 2021 13:30:19 GMT
House of Hell is good but artificially requires you to have certain stats where even if you do everything right, you lose for not rolling a certain number... As opposed to chasms of malice, where unless you roll a random number bigger than another random number, several times and regardless of stats, you lose? Get a grip. At least you know you might as well not bother starting house of hell if your fear score isn't high enough. There is a difference between rolls in the book meaning you can lose (as can happen in any book except Starship Traveller if you know the right path) and a stat roll meaning you will lose no matter what you do for not getting "N" - and without being able to access solutions and discussion forums, you'd not know this. Which is one reason why I don't get as much enjoyment out of House of Hell as you do. Its also why the atrocious Zombies is a complete and utter waste of time and effort due to being impossible no matter what you roll.
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Post by natwa on Dec 26, 2021 14:58:01 GMT
Thought I'd take the opportunity to put my own ranking here as well
1. Rebel Planet: It's the most immersive experience of the Sci-fi gamebooks. I think he did a really great job of creating interesting planets, societies and people, including the different types of Arcadians. There is also a sense of urgency about the mission and although it might be a bit to easy to fail in the last part of the book(before you get to Arcadion), you at least don't have to be really lucky with your dice rolls to get there, so the difficulty, at least in my opinion, is still quite fair, while still making the book challenging enough to make it feel like an accomplishment when you've won. But I do agree that the first two planets are the most interesting 2. Space Assassin: Lots of fun and quirky encounters and unlike in Sky Lord, the quirkiness doesn't make the book an (often) unplayable mess. It's quite easy, but I don't mind that and I much prefer gamebooks being to easy to them being too hard anyway 3.Robot Commando: I do enjoy the different flavors you get in the different cities, exploring them is what makes this a fun gamebook for me. More than one "happy ending" is also nice. Still it doesn't have quite the fun factor of Space Assassin or the immersive intensity of Rebel Planet for me, so I rate it a bit lower than those two. 4. Rings of Kether: I think the investigative aspect here is quite well done and I like that you can get the opportunity to be involved in a car chase. But I don't really like the Crime genre that much anymore, so that means that the book isn't that enjoyable for me anymore, even when combined with a Sci-fi setting. And even when I still did enjoy Crime books, series etc, I still found the encounters and settings of Rebel Planet and Space Assassin more interesting and fun. 5. Spaceship Traveller: Unlike a lot of the other members of this group, I don't actively hate this. But it is bland and utterly forgettable, so utterly forgettable that it's hard for me to remember anything about it other than the goal of the book being to find a code so that you could find the way back to your home galaxy. That at least means that it's better than the really bad FF books, but it being so utterly forgettable means it can't be particularly good either, more like the definition of average or the kind of "thing" that the word "meh" was invented for. 6. Freeway Fighter: I never really did enjoy the Car Wars setting, at least not outside of the Mad Max movies. And Freeway Warrior has nothing interesting to add to that kind of setting and a lack of interesting encounters and characters, and although the part of making sure you always have enough fuel may be "realistic", it gets to be a chore having to take care of that throughout the book, not to mention that running out of fuel most be one of the most boring and anticlimactic ways to lose a gamebook. 7. Star Strider:The intro seemed quite promising and the setting had potential. But it's ruined by Sharp's fetish for making up his own random rolls in addition to or sometimes instead of the ones already in place in FF and devoting too much space to math puzzles and not enough to actually interesting characters and encounters. 8. Sky Lord: The author gets points for originality and it's less broken than Crypt of the Sorcerer. But he's spending too much of the book on trying to be funny without really succeeding and too little on making the book playable and comprehensible enough for the reader to actually make qualified and rational decisions to win the book instead of just trying to randomly guess what the author meant and what the author's plan for the book was.
As for the HOH and BOZ, I don't think Sci-fi and present day FF game books should be put together, so I haven't rated them. The reason why I think so is twofold: Firstly, since HOH and BOZ are both horror books in addition to being (probably) present day, this means putting two very different genres who work in very different ways together, which means there is no more reason in comparing them in particular than comparing HOH and BOZ to just the fantasy FF gamebooks or the Sci-fi FF gamebooks to all the fantasy FF gamebooks. And since a Sci-fi story doesn't necessarily have to take place in the future saying that it's not about the genre, but the period when the story of the FF takes place doesn't really seem to work either(for the FF books set in Titan or other Fantasy worlds, it's not so easy to translate into such a time frame either). So I'd rather stick with what seemed to be the original intention of the survey( my apologies if my interpretation is wrong), to find out which Sci-fi FF gamebooks people like the best( and maybe also which Sci-fi FF gamebooks people like the least) and vote for just the Sci-fi.
And I also have to admit that I've always considered Sci-fi and Superhero to be two separate genres. After all, Marvel and DC, in addition to the Sci-fi elements, have also included elements that could be considered Fantasy( like magic and magicians, Greek and Norse gods). But I'm less strongly opposed to including Appointment with F.E.A.R. than the "present day" ones and if i should include , I'd probably put it in fourth place, just above Rings of Keither. Although I'm no longer a fan of the superhero genre, I always enjoy having extra abilities in the FF gambooks and here you have four different abilities to choose from and four different ways of winning, which is a good thing, I think(although not without its complications.
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 26, 2021 18:15:35 GMT
Thought I'd take the opportunity to put my own ranking here as well 1. Rebel Planet: It's the most immersive experience of the Sci-fi gamebooks. I think he did a really great job of creating interesting planets, societies and people, including the different types of Arcadians. There is also a sense of urgency about the mission and although it might be a bit to easy to fail in the last part of the book(before you get to Arcadion), you at least don't have to be really lucky with your dice rolls to get there, so the difficulty, at least in my opinion, is still quite fair, while still making the book challenging enough to make it feel like an accomplishment when you've won. But I do agree that the first two planets are the most interesting 2. Space Assassin: Lots of fun and quirky encounters and unlike in Sky Lord, the quirkiness doesn't make the book an (often) unplayable mess. It's quite easy, but I don't mind that and I much prefer gamebooks being to easy to them being too hard anyway 3.Robot Commando: I do enjoy the different flavors you get in the different cities, exploring them is what makes this a fun gamebook for me. More than one "happy ending" is also nice. Still it doesn't have quite the fun factor of Space Assassin or the immersive intensity of Rebel Planet for me, so I rate it a bit lower than those two. 4. Rings of Kether: I think the investigative aspect here is quite well done and I like that you can get the opportunity to be involved in a car chase. But I don't really like the Crime genre that much anymore, so that means that the book isn't that enjoyable for me anymore, even when combined with a Sci-fi setting. And even when I still did enjoy Crime books, series etc, I still found the encounters and settings of Rebel Planet and Space Assassin more interesting and fun. 5. Spaceship Traveller: Unlike a lot of the other members of this group, I don't actively hate this. But it is bland and utterly forgettable, so utterly forgettable that it's hard for me to remember anything about it other than the goal of the book being to find a code so that you could find the way back to your home galaxy. That at least means that it's better than the really bad FF books, but it being so utterly forgettable means it can't be particularly good either, more like the definition of average or the kind of "thing" that the word "meh" was invented for. 6. Freeway Fighter: I never really did enjoy the Car Wars setting, at least not outside of the Mad Max movies. And Freeway Warrior has nothing interesting to add to that kind of setting and a lack of interesting encounters and characters, and although the part of making sure you always have enough fuel may be "realistic", it gets to be a chore having to take care of that throughout the book, not to mention that running out of fuel most be one of the most boring and anticlimactic ways to lose a gamebook. 7. Star Strider:The intro seemed quite promising and the setting had potential. But it's ruined by Sharp's fetish for making up his own random rolls in addition to or sometimes instead of the ones already in place in FF and devoting too much space to math puzzles and not enough to actually interesting characters and encounters. 8. Sky Lord: The author gets points for originality and it's less broken than Crypt of the Sorcerer. But he's spending too much of the book on trying to be funny without really succeeding and too little on making the book playable and comprehensible enough for the reader to actually make qualified and rational decisions to win the book instead of just trying to randomly guess what the author meant and what the author's plan for the book was. As for the HOH and BOZ, I don't think Sci-fi and present day FF game books should be put together, so I haven't rated them. The reason why I think so is twofold: Firstly, since HOH and BOZ are both horror books in addition to being (probably) present day, this means putting two very different genres who work in very different ways together, which means there is no more reason in comparing them in particular than comparing HOH and BOZ to just the fantasy FF gamebooks or the Sci-fi FF gamebooks to all the fantasy FF gamebooks. And since a Sci-fi story doesn't necessarily have to take place in the future saying that it's not about the genre, but the period when the story of the FF takes place doesn't really seem to work either(for the FF books set in Titan or other Fantasy worlds, it's not so easy to translate into such a time frame either). So I'd rather stick with what seemed to be the original intention of the survey( my apologies if my interpretation is wrong), to find out which FF gamebooks people like the best( and maybe also which FF gamebooks people like the least) and vote for just the Sci-fi. And I also have to admit that I've always considered Sci-fi and Superhero to be two separate genres. After all, Marvel and DC, in addition to the Sci-fi elements, have also included elements that could be considered Fantasy( like magic and magicians, Greek and Norse gods). But I'm less strongly opposed to including Appointment with F.E.A.R. than the "present day" ones and if i should include , I'd probably put it in fourth place, just above Rings of Keither. Although I'm no longer a fan of the superhero genre, I always enjoy having extra abilities in the FF gambooks and here you have four different abilities to choose from and four different ways of winning, which is a good thing, I think(although not without its complications. My intent was to discover our preferences about SF and present-day FF, which was my personal intention and doesn't seem to have been particularly popular , even to me, after having let things play out as I wanted. I could have done a dozen different permutations (do I include all non-Titan works? Do I include Spectral Stalkers? Do I let people vote once, twice or three times?). I'm going to be a bit straight. The poll itself seems to have been successful, but the execution . So I'm planning to do a non-Titan poll (where people can vote 3 times), and SF poll (which includes Spectral Stalkers and Star Strider but not HOH, DKDC about Blood), in the new year.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,547
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Dec 26, 2021 19:33:44 GMT
I suppose one could argue Blood of the Zombies is a sci-fi book - the Zombies are created by a biological experiment. House of Hell is fantasy though what with demons, vampires, witches and black magic.
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Post by natwa on Dec 26, 2021 21:50:47 GMT
Just discovered that I forgot an important word in my original reply which changed my intended meaning when talking about what I thought was the original intention of the poll. I've made a small important edit so that it now says "Sci-fi FF gamebooks", which was what I actually meant to "say". Sorry that I wasn't more careful in the first place.
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 26, 2021 22:03:39 GMT
Just discovered that I forgot an important word in my original reply which changed my intended meaning when talking about what I thought was the original intention of the poll. I've made a small important edit so that it now says "Sci-fi FF gamebooks", which was what I actually meant to "say". Sorry that I wasn't more careful in the first place. I'd argue with you saying that it is a tough task to define things, your point\satire is cheap and unfair, we all have different personalities here, and this will develop into a massive pointless argument like lots of other things have on this forum. However, why bother?
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Post by natwa on Dec 26, 2021 22:50:41 GMT
I didn't mean it as a satire, and I'm sorry if I came across as satirical or sarcastic in that comment, because that wasn't my intention. I only wrote what I wrote because I made that error in the first place and, since the responses to my post was to a pre-edit post, I just thought it would be more fair to "warn" people about me making that edit. I'm aware that me telling people about an edit I just made may feel a little bit too much, if you feel that way, fair enough. But, like I said, it wasn't meant as satire or sarcasm, just like a clarification because I hate when missing words make what I want to write come out differently than I intended them too.
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Post by CharlesX on Dec 26, 2021 22:57:59 GMT
I didn't mean it as a satire, and I'm sorry if I came across as satirical or sarcastic in that comment, because that wasn't my intention. I only wrote what I wrote because I made that error in the first place and, since the responses to my post was to a pre-edit post, I just thought it would be more fair to "warn" people about me making that edit. I'm aware that me telling people about an edit I just made may feel a little bit too much, if you feel that way, fair enough. But, like I said, it wasn't meant as satire or sarcasm, just like a clarification because I hate when missing words make what I want to write come out differently than I intended them too. Oh, that's great! I thought you were satirising me for my tendency to "write first and ask questions later", and edit my replies quite a bit. Hugs 🚿.
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Post by a moderator on Dec 29, 2021 17:18:40 GMT
If you want to muddy the waters some more, there are some who view Spectral Stalkers as a sci fi book, citing the future Titan world as concrete evidence if the main plot isn't enough A couple of the locations in Stalkers are definitely SF, but I wouldn't include the 'future Titan' one among them. Murderous innkeepers and dagger-toting Goblins don't suddenly become science fiction just because the year starts with a 6 rather than a 2.
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