|
Post by CharlesX on Jan 1, 2022 4:45:29 GMT
Deathtrap Dungeon is the first book from the author polls to go through to the final poll. Going by its placement as Ian's highest scoring book at 8th in Wilf's rankings, not a surprise result, but what is noteworthy is that in a poll that will have more options than any other due to Livingstone's volume of content, it secured nearly half of the total votes. Indeed, despite there being 16 options, just two books, Deathtrap Dungeon and City of Thieves, accounted for nearly three quarters of all votes cast. And if further evidence was needed that Livingstone's early output is the most well regarded of his work, no book post Crypt of the Sorcerer received any votes at all. Disregarding my vote for Trial Of Champions, that is. 2022 🎉.
|
|
|
Post by terrysalt on Jan 1, 2022 6:25:48 GMT
I'm confused by the point you're trying to make. Trial is book 21, Crypt is book 26. Even with your vote included, nothing after Crypt received any.
|
|
|
Post by CharlesX on Jan 1, 2022 7:02:35 GMT
I'm confused by the point you're trying to make. Trial is book 21, Crypt is book 26. Even with your vote included, nothing after Crypt received any. For some reason I incorrectly thought Trial was a later Livingstone work (🐑). If anything my 'point' a bit counter-productively adds to your own one, with Crypt having a higher difficulty level, and later Livingstone works showing a heavy decline in quality except for Return To Firetop Mountain. Clean slate.. What point am I trying to make here? I think it's one of the better Livingstone works in spite of the fact it wasn't included in the Wizard Edition reprints, like other Livingstone 'early works', which went as far as Crypt (and most of which were before either Crypt or Trial). As far as Return To Firetop Mountain goes, I think it's an excellent dungeon adventure (in that regard, it obviously leaves his Eye standing), I would almost have voted for it, if it weren't for the very FF 50 50 competition.
|
|
|
Post by terrysalt on Jan 1, 2022 8:15:37 GMT
I'm confused by the point you're trying to make. Trial is book 21, Crypt is book 26. Even with your vote included, nothing after Crypt received any. For some reason I incorrectly thought Trial was a later Livingstone work (🐑). If anything my 'point' a bit counter-productively adds to your own one, with Crypt having a higher difficulty level, and later Livingstone works showing a heavy decline in quality except for Return To Firetop Mountain. Clean slate.. What point am I trying to make here? I think it's one of the better Livingstone works in spite of the fact it wasn't included in the Wizard Edition reprints, like other Livingstone 'early works', which went as far as Crypt (and most of which were before either Crypt or Trial). As far as Return To Firetop Mountain goes, I think it's an excellent dungeon adventure (in that regard, it obviously leaves his Eye standing), I would almost have voted for it, if it weren't for the very FF 50 50 competition. I'm still mentally scarred from the doppelganger fight. As good as the rest of RtFM may be, I'm not forgiving it for that.
|
|
|
Post by a moderator on Jan 1, 2022 11:42:40 GMT
I'm confused by the point you're trying to make. Trial is book 21, Crypt is book 26. Even with your vote included, nothing after Crypt received any. For some reason I incorrectly thought Trial was a later Livingstone work (🐑). If anything my 'point' a bit counter-productively adds to your own one, with Crypt having a higher difficulty level, and later Livingstone works showing a heavy decline in quality except for Return To Firetop Mountain. Clean slate.. What point am I trying to make here? I think it's one of the better Livingstone works in spite of the fact it wasn't included in the Wizard Edition reprints, like other Livingstone 'early works', which went as far as Crypt (and most of which were before either Crypt or Trial). As far as Return To Firetop Mountain goes, I think it's an excellent dungeon adventure (in that regard, it obviously leaves his Eye standing), I would almost have voted for it, if it weren't for the very FF 50 50 competition. Trial was book 12 in both Wizard runs.
|
|
|
Post by misomiso on Jan 2, 2022 15:49:36 GMT
ok guys...who voted for 'Crypt of the Sorcerer'...?
|
|
|
Post by CharlesX on Jan 2, 2022 15:58:56 GMT
ok guys...who voted for 'Crypt of the Sorcerer'...? As old Vagsancho doesn't seem to visit this site anymore, obviously another huge Livingstone fan (no, not me). Crypt's writing, and illustrations, is strong, if you can overlook the difficulty level. Dare I suggest not everyone on this site shares the puritanical way in which some of us reject cheating ?
|
|
|
Post by terrysalt on Jan 2, 2022 20:09:27 GMT
Crypt has some cool encounters like most of Ian's books do. If you're in it for the book more than the game, Crypt isn't bad. In fact, given that he's on record as saying he assumes everyone cheats anyway, that may be a more sensible lens through which to assess his works.
|
|
|
Post by a moderator on Jan 3, 2022 0:07:20 GMT
If a furniture designer says he assumes that everyone likes having hard lumps sticking into their backs, it is still fair to complain that his chairs are uncomfortable.
|
|
|
Post by terrysalt on Jan 3, 2022 1:13:58 GMT
Sure, and as someone who actually plays the game side of it, I'd never vote for Crypt myself. I do understand why people would though.
|
|
|
Post by bloodbeasthandler on Jan 3, 2022 11:19:07 GMT
Ok, a question and this is as good a place as any.
Assume Crypt of the Sorceror's game-breaking faults are cured. No more SKILL 12 Razaak instakills etc. Where does it rate now?
|
|
|
Post by nathanh on Jan 3, 2022 12:04:55 GMT
I honestly don't enjoy Crypt as something just to read through either. It ranks quite low on my "explore" and "solve" metrics as well as "play". Nothing really grabbed me in it.
As for the later books not scoring very many votes, I suspect it's because Livingstone's books are quite similar, and the earlier ones had the bonus for being more playable. For instance, Trial is a really fun book to read, but obnoxious to play. Whereas Deathtrap is similar to read and a bit better to play, and City is a lot better to play. But they're all quite similar. Later Livingstone books also tend to demand very thorough playthroughs with little optional or "choose either, it doesn't matter much" content. For example, I got Assassins and Armies for Christmas and I like both books to explore but the winning routes are both precise and quite exhaustive, which isn't so much fun. Exception would be Eye of the Dragon, which I think is underrated.
Essentially, apart from Crypt which I really don't like and Blood which is un-fun to play, I'd score every Livingstone book I've played around about the same, except that City and Deathtrap are just that bit better at doing the same sort of stuff.
|
|
|
Post by a moderator on Jan 3, 2022 12:12:18 GMT
Looking at the scores I calculated for the Ranking Thread, Crypt currently ranks alongside Freeway, Trial and Armies, and ahead of Eye and Zombies. Port and Assassins are unranked, as I haven't played them properly yet.
If its playability rating went up to above-average (only a few FF books get the maximum score on playability, none of them by Ian), Crypt would overtake Forest, Temple and Return, and draw level with Caverns. Better, but still lagging behind Warlock, City, Deathtrap and Island.
|
|
|
Post by CharlesX on Jan 3, 2022 12:26:54 GMT
It's about the way it feels as well as the gameplay. Temple of Terror has the magic system, some unique, memorable fights, and the gold statuette. Return To Firetop Mountain is more fun (to play) because Livingstone had developed his writing skills and atmosphere, where Crypt feels mechanical regardless of the difficulty level. Take away the difficulty level, and anyone who isn't a real Livingstone fan would probably still think it (Crypt) a mediocre one.
|
|
|
Post by petch on Jan 3, 2022 13:19:10 GMT
Good question! Crypt has other faults as well as its difficulty (the absurdly esoteric items/info you have to collect and the horrible Bonekeeper thing just to name a couple), but as a story I think it ranks among Livingstone's best. I think he tried to pull out the stops to give it an epic, sweeping feel and largely succeeded. It expands the lore of Allansia well, it has some great set pieces (I like the hot air balloon ride and the dragon-rider bit is just cool), and in a series awash with villains-of-the-week trying to take over the world, I think he manages to make Razaak stand apart as a genuine threat and a cut above your average moustache-twiddler.
|
|
kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,547
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
|
Post by kieran on Jan 3, 2022 13:51:51 GMT
Exception would be Eye of the Dragon, which I think is underrated. Another notable exception is Ghost Road, the 4th Goldhawk book and the last gamebook Ian wrote of the original FF run. There's so many different approaches you can take to beat that one. I do wonder if Ian used a ghost writer for it although the prose is very Livingstonian even if the design isn't. But then Ian did write Forest of Doom so he can certainly write more open books if he puts his mind to it. If anything though his books are becoming more linear than ever of late.
|
|