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Post by champskees on Oct 28, 2013 11:54:16 GMT
There is so much to like about this book. Very different from most of the other books of the FF series, and it’s a sequel to Black Vein Prophecy! It is definitely in my top 10, but there are a few things I didn’t like. On the top of my list is the fact that there is only one true path; for a gamebook with so many possibilities, it would have been great if there were multiple ways to achieve your end goal. I also don’t really understand the need to get the message. How does solving the puzzler’s riddle allow you to see the adviser in his true form? If there was a stronger connection between the overall message and your quest I could understand it a little better, but it just seems like a bunch of random events with no real connection with each other. Maybe I missed the point. Anywho, as there is only one real way to finish this book successfully this solution is nothing new, I’m just posting it here for my own needs (I just feel incomplete otherwise, sorry!). I will also be posting a jobs guide as well though, because I love the idea of choosing a new life for yourself, that’s really cool. I recommend following stats: Skill 5+, Stamina 5-10, Ferocity of <7. High luck will help for first fight. - Add note: If ferocity score is 0, +2 Skill & allowed to automatically fail Ferocity test. - Take Wooden Sword & 2 Food. - Travel along the road. - Run after them. - Turn & try to distract the horseman’s attention away from Hani (2 Damage, +1 Ferocity). - Eat a meal (-1 Food, +4 Stamina). - Travel along the polders. - 2D6 Test Ferocity. You need to fail this roll, if successful start again. - Fight Sk 6 St 6 Death’s Messenger. If die, start again. Use luck once for extra damage. - Add word: When- Restore Stamina to Permanent Stamina. - Add 1 to Skill, -2 Ferocity. - Start your journey to Baochou. - Take 10 Gold Pieces. - Add word: king- Take 30 Copper Coins, Sandals, Hat & Spear. - Head north. - Add 2 to Permanent Stamina. - Continue past it, towards the mountains. - Add word: offers- Press on ahead. - Bow to him. - Reply ‘a mountain’. - You do not have the word ‘silk’. - Tell him you wish to become a monk. - Take Red Robe. - Choose the kitchen. - Add 2 to Permanent Stamina. - Add 1 to age ( -2 Ferocity, restore Stamina to Permanent Stamina). - Tell him you are well pleased with your lot. - Add 2 to Permanent Stamina, Add 1 to Skill, -2 Ferocity. - Add 1 to age ( -2 Ferocity, restore Stamina to Permanent Stamina). - Take Monk’s Knife. - You feel that the time is ripe for you to leave the monastery and resume your quest. - Add word: sword- Decide to stay. - You have a Red Robe. - You do not have the word ‘wood’. - Fight Sk 6 St 6 White Faced Monk. If you lose, start again. - Give him your most prized possession ( -2 Ferocity). - Push both handles together. - Follow the left hand one. - Grab the bowl from the stone. - Take Clay Bowl. - Go down the passage to your right. - Wait to see what Meng has to say. - Say ‘My mind’ (-2 Ferocity). - You have a clay bowl & red robes. - Add word: turn- Restore Stamina to Permanent Stamina. - Head northwards. - You do not have the word ‘to’. - Creep up close, remaining hidden. - Stay where you are. - Creep silently away and plan your next move. - Travel back south. - Add word: to- You are wearing a red robe. - Show him respect & follow him warily. - Tell him you are seeking the murderer of your father. - Take Golden Sword (+2 Attack Strength in combat). - Test Luck. o If fail: o Fight Sk 4 St 10 Drunk. o Seek out some other way of contacting the rebels. - Leave the building before the storm breaks. - Leave the city now, travelling south. - Puzzle: o Day 0: 1x o Day 1: 1.5x o Day 2: 2x o Day 3: 2.5x o Grows at constant rate of .5 per day. o 100x = Day 0+(99/0.5 days) o 100x = Day 198 - Answer ‘198 Days’. - Add 1 to Permanent Stamina. - Add 1 to Age ( -2 Ferocity, restore Stamina to Permanent Stamina). - Make a diversion to seek out the warriors. - Approach them peacefully. - Take Wooden Plaque. - You have a Wooden Plaque and wish to use it. - You do not have either ‘magic’ or ‘silk’ words. - You do not have paper talismans. - You are wearing a Red Robe. - You have a Wooden Plaque. - You have the Golden Sword. - The King offers you your sword back. - Use words: When king offers sword, turn to: o Add puzzler’s answer: 198. o Turn to Para 198. - Choose the former. - Tell Maior that you want the man to be allowed to live. - With Maior you rejoin your mother, and then return to the capital. From your personal tragedy you have forged a new chance for the peoples of the isles. You can hold your head up high at last and call yourself heroic.
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Post by champskees on Oct 28, 2013 12:04:01 GMT
Job Guide
There are many other endings you can attain in this book, so I have had a bit of a playthrough and listed most of them here. Note that for some of these there are multiple ways to achieve the same/similar ending.
Endings are: - Arena Fighter - Mining Slave - Basket Weaver - Village Rebuilder - Monk - Merchant’s Assistant - Sailor - Mercenary Leader
Arena Fighter Rec Stats: Skill 3-4, Ferocity 7-8
- Travel along the road. - Wait & try to ambush the mercenary. - 2D6 Test Ferocity. If fail start again. - Add 6 to Skill, add 10 to Permanent Stamina, +10 Ferocity. - Add 2 to Age (-4 to Ferocity, restore Stamina to Permanent Stamina). - Fight Sk 8 St 13 Arena Beast. o If hit: o Test Skill. Fail = -1 Skill & -1 Ferocity. - 3D6 Test Ferocity. You need to fail this roll. If successful start again. - You live out the rest of your short life at the arena, killing for the pleasure of others.
Mining Slave Rec Stats: Ferocity <7
- Travel along the road. - Wait & try to ambush the mercenary. - 2D6 Test Ferocity. You need to fail this roll. If successful start again. - Lose all possessions, +2 Ferocity. - Wait to see what he does next. - Add 2 to Permanent Stamina, +2 Ferocity. - Add 1 to Age (-2 Ferocity, restore Stamina to Permanent Stamina). - Wait in the mines, hoping to earn your freedom through hard work. - The months pass & turn into years. Though you may improve your lot slightly, you will never be free.
Mining Slave #2 Rec Stats: Stamina >2
- Travel along the road. - Run after them. - Turn & try to distract the horseman’s attention away from Hani (2 Damage, +1 Ferocity). - Head back to your village. - Take 30 Copper Coins, Sandals, Hat & Spear. - Travel south towards Yenshu. - You do not have the word ‘king’. - Start the journey to Baochou. - Take 10 Gold Pieces. - Add word: king - Travel south towards Yenshu. - You have the word ‘king’. - Opt for a boarding house. - You have money (-1 Gold Piece). - Visit the tribunal and attempt to bribe the constables to take action. - Lose all possessions, +2 Ferocity. - Wait to see what he does next. - Add 2 to Permanent Stamina, +2 Ferocity. - Add 1 to Age (-2 Ferocity, restore Stamina to Permanent Stamina). - Wait in the mines, hoping to earn your freedom through hard work. - The months pass & turn into years. Though you may improve your lot slightly, you will never be free.
Basket Weaver Rec Stats: Stamina >2
- Travel along the road. - Run after them. - Turn & try to distract the horseman’s attention away from Hani (2 Damage, +1 Ferocity). - Head back to your village. - Take 30 Copper Coins, Sandals, Hat & Spear. - Travel south towards Yenshu. - You do not have the word ‘king’. - Start the journey to Baochou. - Take 10 Gold Pieces. - Add word: king - Travel south towards Yenshu. - You have the word ‘king’. - Opt for a boarding house. - You have money (-1 Gold Piece). - Search for employment. - Add 3 to Permanent Stamina. - Add 1 to Age (-2 Ferocity, restore Stamina to Permanent Stamina). - Take 10 Gold Pieces. - Stay on as an apprentice. - Your life is uneventful, but at least you have food to eat & clothes to wear.
Village Rebuilder Rec. Stats: 6 Skill, 10+ Stamina, 9+ Luck
- You prefer to make your way through the rice paddies. - Fight Sk 12 St 6 Giant Mudworm. Haha - Add 1 to Skill. - Add word: art - Stay with the others. - Leave the chamber. - You have the word ‘art’. - Attempt to pick up the trail of the mercenaries. - Stay in Yenshu to make further enquiries. - Go back to your village (you can also become a basket weaver at this point). - You all travel back to the wreckage that was once your village and try to rebuild as best as you can. Eventually you make something of a life for yourself.
Monk Rec. Stats: >2 Stamina
- Travel along the road. - Run after them. - Turn & try to distract the horseman’s attention away from Hani (2 Damage, +1 Ferocity). - Head back to your village. - Take 30 Copper Coins, Sandals, Hat & Spear. - Head north. - Add 2 to Permanent Stamina. - Continue past it, towards the mountains. - Add word: offers - Press on ahead. - Bow to him. - Reply ‘a mountain’. - You do not have the word ‘silk’. - Tell him you wish to become a monk. - Take Red Robe. - Choose any job. - Tell him you are well pleased/satisfied/carry on as you are (stat changes vary). - Tell him you are still satisfied with your chosen career. - You remain in the monastery, working hard.
Merchant’s Assistant Rec. Stats: Skill 5+, Stamina 5+
- Travel along the road. - Run after them. - Turn & try to distract the horseman’s attention away from Hani (2 Damage, +1 Ferocity). - Head back to your village. - Take 30 Copper Coins, Sandals, Hat & Spear. - Head north. - Add 2 to Permanent Stamina. - Continue past it, towards the mountains. - Add word: offers - Press on ahead. - Bow to him. - Reply ‘a mountain’. - You do not have the word ‘silk’. - Tell him you wish to become a monk. - Take Red Robe. - Choose the kitchen. - Add 2 to Permanent Stamina. - Add 1 to age (-2 Ferocity, restore Stamina to Permanent Stamina). - Tell him you are well pleased with your lot. - Add 2 to Permanent Stamina, Add 1 to Skill, -2 Ferocity. - Add 1 to age (-2 Ferocity, restore Stamina to Permanent Stamina). - Take Monk’s Knife. - You feel that the time is ripe for you to leave the monastery and resume your quest. - Add word: sword - Decide to stay. - You have a Red Robe. - You do not have the word ‘wood’. - Fight Sk 6 St 6 White Faced Monk. If you lose, start again. - Give him your most prized possession (-2 Ferocity). - Push both handles together. - Follow the left hand one. - Grab the bowl from the stone. - Take Clay Bowl. - Go down the passage to your right. - Wait to see what Meng has to say. - Say ‘My mind’ (-2 Ferocity). - You have a clay bowl & red robes. - Add word: turn - Restore Stamina to Permanent Stamina. - Head northwards. - You do not have the word ‘to’. - Creep up close, remaining hidden. - Stay where you are. - Creep silently away and plan your next move. - Travel back south. - Add word: to - You are wearing a red robe. - Show him respect & follow him warily. - Tell him you are seeking the murderer of your father. - Take Golden Sword (+2 Attack Strength in combat). - Test Luck. o If fail: o Fight Sk 4 St 10 Drunk. o Seek out some other way of contacting the rebels. - Leave the building before the storm breaks. - Try to obtain a job. - By chance you bump into a merchant whose cart has a broken wheel and he offers you employment as his assistant. He is prepared to pay you a share of the profits. A few days later, your cart rattles through the East Gate.
Sailor Rec. Stats: Skill 5+, Stamina 5+
- Travel along the road. - Run after them. - Turn & try to distract the horseman’s attention away from Hani (2 Damage, +1 Ferocity). - Head back to your village. - Take 30 Copper Coins, Sandals, Hat & Spear. - Head north. - Add 2 to Permanent Stamina. - Continue past it, towards the mountains. - Add word: offers - Press on ahead. - Bow to him. - Reply ‘a mountain’. - You do not have the word ‘silk’. - Tell him you wish to become a monk. - Take Red Robe. - Choose the kitchen. - Add 2 to Permanent Stamina. - Add 1 to age (-2 Ferocity, restore Stamina to Permanent Stamina). - Tell him you are well pleased with your lot. - Add 2 to Permanent Stamina, Add 1 to Skill, -2 Ferocity. - Add 1 to age (-2 Ferocity, restore Stamina to Permanent Stamina). - Take Monk’s Knife. - You feel that the time is ripe for you to leave the monastery and resume your quest. - Add word: sword - Decide to stay. - You have a Red Robe. - You do not have the word ‘wood’. - Fight Sk 6 St 6 White Faced Monk. If you lose, start again. - Give him your most prized possession (-2 Ferocity). - Push both handles together. - Follow the left hand one. - Grab the bowl from the stone. - Take Clay Bowl. - Go down the passage to your right. - Wait to see what Meng has to say. - Say ‘My mind’ (-2 Ferocity). - You have a clay bowl & red robes. - Add word: turn - Restore Stamina to Permanent Stamina. - Head northwards. - You do not have the word ‘to’. - Creep up close, remaining hidden. - Stay where you are. - Creep silently away and plan your next move. - Travel back south. - Add word: to - You are wearing a red robe. - Show him respect & follow him warily. - Tell him you are seeking the murderer of your father. - Take Golden Sword (+2 Attack Strength in combat). - Test Luck. You need to fail this roll, if successful start again. o If fail: o Fight Sk 4 St 10 Drunk. o Set off north. - You have the word ‘to’. - Take up the ship captain’s offer of employment as a sailor. - You rejoin the ship before it leaves the harbour. Adventures aplenty await you on the high sea.
Mercenary Leader Rec. Stats: >2 Stamina.
- Travel along the road. - Run after them. - Turn & try to distract the horseman’s attention away from Hani (2 Damage, +1 Ferocity). - Eat a meal (-1 Food, +4 Stamina). - Head back to your village. - Take 30 Copper Coins, Sandals, Hat & Spear. - Head north. - Add 2 to Permanent Stamina. - Continue past it, towards the mountains. - Add word: offers - Press on ahead. - Bow to him. - Reply ‘a mountain’. - You do not have the word ‘silk’. - Tell him you wish to become a monk. - Take Red Robe. - Choose the kitchen. - Add 2 to Permanent Stamina. - Add 1 to age (-2 Ferocity, restore Stamina to Permanent Stamina). - Tell him you are well pleased with your lot. - Add 2 to Permanent Stamina, Add 1 to Skill, -2 Ferocity. - Add 1 to age (-2 Ferocity, restore Stamina to Permanent Stamina). - Take Monk’s Knife. - You feel that the time is ripe for you to leave the monastery and resume your quest. - Add word: sword - You prefer to leave. - Head northwards. - You do not have the word ‘to’. - March boldly into the camp. - Your age is 15+. - You do not have the word ‘never’. - Attack him immediately. - Attack him with a monk’s knife. - Don your enemy’s mask and take command of the mercenaries. - You put on the mask and raise your arms. The mercenaries kneel before you their new leader. The red haze still dances before your eyes; the haze of hatred and death, the crimson tide of revenge, never leaves you and the mask never comes off your face until your dying day.
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Post by daredevil123 on Jul 16, 2018 9:34:26 GMT
Regarding the probability table, isn't this book impossible with Stamina 2 because you have to take 2 damage from the horseman right at the start?
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Post by champskees on Jul 18, 2018 3:13:31 GMT
Oops...now corrected.
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Post by CharlesX on May 13, 2022 17:06:44 GMT
Is there a good reason the Giant Mudworm's Skill is so high at 12? I even heard a rumour it was a printing error.
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Post by a moderator on May 13, 2022 17:49:20 GMT
More of an editorial blunder, as I understand it. IIRC, the Mudworm's Skill was originally 6, but apparently Marc Gascoigne forgot about the lower-than-standard starting Skill in the book, and beefed up the Mudworm's stats to make it more of a challenge.
Although someone (possibly Kieran) has suggested that the fight might have been deliberately made ludicrously harsh as a hint that it's not on the true path.
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Post by vastariner on May 13, 2022 20:40:55 GMT
Paul Mason himself said it was Gascoigne’s error. The idea being that a mudworm should be challenging for a kid. After all, who would ever be able to farm if Sk12 animals were infesting the countryside?
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kieran
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Post by kieran on May 13, 2022 21:58:04 GMT
More of an editorial blunder, as I understand it. IIRC, the Mudworm's Skill was originally 6, but apparently Marc Gascoigne forgot about the lower-than-standard starting Skill in the book, and beefed up the Mudworm's stats to make it more of a challenge. Although someone (possibly Kieran) has suggested that the fight might have been deliberately made ludicrously harsh as a hint that it's not on the true path. I think the most likely explanation is it was a transcription error - maybe the Mudworm was supposed to be Sk6 St12 and the two scores got muddled. If it was a deliberate change by Gascoigne, I don't think the idea he missed that you start with D6 Skill and then believed the Mudworm was too much of a pushover makes much sense - he didn't raise any other creatures' scores in the same way; even in a standard book, an early Skill 12 enemy is pretty much unknown while a Skill 6 enemy is not; and his own Battleblade Warrior doesn't have such tough fights as standard. It just doesn't add up. So if it was a deliberate change by Gascoigne, it makes more sense to me that he thought the path to victory was too hard to find and so made it slightly easier by making a false path obviously false. But I think either scenario is a lot less likely than a simple transcription error.
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Post by vastariner on May 14, 2022 5:18:09 GMT
Except Paul Mason has LITERALLY SAID that Gascoigne forgot you start with Sk1-6.
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kieran
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Post by kieran on May 14, 2022 5:29:55 GMT
Except Paul Mason has LITERALLY SAID that Gascoigne forgot you start with Sk1-6. I thought that was an assumption on his part? Maybe he can confirm here.
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Post by adrius on May 15, 2022 4:50:56 GMT
Even then it is an incredible challenge to fight a giant mudworm with Skill=6 when your own is 1-6 ... it just increases the probability of failure and destroys the thrill of properly playing through. I'd say perhaps Skill=3 or 4 would make more sense.
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kieran
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Post by kieran on May 15, 2022 5:11:09 GMT
Even then it is an incredible challenge to fight a giant mudworm with Skill=6 when your own is 1-6 ... it just increases the probability of failure and destroys the thrill of properly playing through. I'd say perhaps Skill=3 or 4 would make more sense. Agreed. Death's Messenger is similarly overpowered.
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Post by CharlesX on May 15, 2022 13:08:21 GMT
Even then it is an incredible challenge to fight a giant mudworm with Skill=6 when your own is 1-6 ... it just increases the probability of failure and destroys the thrill of properly playing through. I'd say perhaps Skill=3 or 4 would make more sense. Agreed. Death's Messenger is similarly overpowered. Weird really, because PM's Black Vein Prophecy and Slaves Of The Abyss were pretty well-balanced in gameplay terms (aside from the luck test you have to fail, which was partly about preventing pathological cheaters from winning), while Crimson Tide and Magehunter are harder. If, as I've suggested, the mandatory luck test fail was about preventing cheating (as I think PM hints at in the prefaratory), it's ironic because people will cheat to fail the test.
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Post by terrysalt on May 15, 2022 23:00:39 GMT
You don't have to win the fight against Death's Messenger though, as confirmed in my progressive stats playthrough. If you lose the fight, you miss out on one of the words in the secret instruction but Paul said it's fine to use context clues from the rest of the sentence to work out the message ("King offers sword, turn to 198" is still pretty clear).
As for Magehunter, I think only the fight against Mencius was difficult. And only if you rolled high stats for the body he inhabits.
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Post by CharlesX on May 16, 2022 5:54:29 GMT
As for Magehunter, I think only the fight against Mencius was difficult. And only if you rolled high stats for the body he inhabits. Magehunter is literally impossible with about half the dice combinations you could roll for starting stats, odds of 5-15% with half-expected stats, and 15-19.5% with optimal stats (Champskees table). I say this is unfairly hard, especially given the criticism for JG over Knights Of Doom, Curse Of The Mummy and Bloodbones where the odds are above that. Or Ian's Trial Of Champions. The fight with Mencius is fundamental, so suggesting Magehunter would be easier if not for that is like suggesting Sky Lord would be easier if not for the spaceship combats. Or that Masks Of Mayhem would be easy if not for the do-or-die rolls.
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kieran
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Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on May 16, 2022 6:48:39 GMT
You don't have to win the fight against Death's Messenger though, as confirmed in my progressive stats playthrough. If you lose the fight, you miss out on one of the words in the secret instruction but Paul said it's fine to use context clues from the rest of the sentence to work out the message ("King offers sword, turn to 198" is still pretty clear). I feel leaving out words from the hidden instruction weakens the concept. Lets face it, you don't need most of the words in the message to work out what to do (particularly if you've discovered some of them in previous playthroughs). For instance, you really don't need to find 'turn' to work out what to do, yet that is obtained by passing the monks' trial which seems very important to your character's growth.
So either you need to fail the Ferocity roll then beat an overpowered opponent to get all the necessary words (which is unfair) or you can choose to forgo certain words which weakens the whole spiritual journey concept of the book. It would have been far better if you had to find all the words but didn't need to make such tough dice rolls to do so.
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Post by terrysalt on May 16, 2022 7:19:15 GMT
You don't have to win the fight against Death's Messenger though, as confirmed in my progressive stats playthrough. If you lose the fight, you miss out on one of the words in the secret instruction but Paul said it's fine to use context clues from the rest of the sentence to work out the message ("King offers sword, turn to 198" is still pretty clear). I feel leaving out words from the hidden instruction weakens the concept. Lets face it, you don't need most of the words in the message to work out what to do (particularly if you've discovered some of them in previous playthroughs). For instance, you really don't need to find 'turn' to work out what to do, yet that is obtained by passing the monks' trial which seems very important to your character's growth.
So either you need to fail the Ferocity roll then beat an overpowered opponent to get all the necessary words (which is unfair) or you can choose to forgo certain words which weakens the whole spiritual journey concept of the book. It would have been far better if you had to find all the words but didn't need to make such tough dice rolls to do so. I guess strictly speaking you'd only need any 2 out of king, offers, and sword (plus of course the number) to piece it together. I wonder how much that would change the optimal path through the book.
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Post by terrysalt on May 16, 2022 7:31:45 GMT
As for Magehunter, I think only the fight against Mencius was difficult. And only if you rolled high stats for the body he inhabits. Magehunter is literally impossible with about half the dice combinations you could roll for starting stats, odds of 5-15% with half-expected stats, and 15-19.5% with optimal stats (Champskees table). I say this is unfairly hard, especially given the criticism for JG over Knights Of Doom, Curse Of The Mummy and Bloodbones where the odds are above that. Or Ian's Trial Of Champions. The fight with Mencius is fundamental, so suggesting Magehunter would be easier if not for that is like suggesting Sky Lord would be easier if not for the spaceship combats. Or that Masks Of Mayhem would be easy if not for the do-or-die rolls. I don't see a problem saying that the book is easy save for one fight. City of Thieves is easy apart from the fight with the moon dogs. I would still say it's overall an easy book. Same with Magehunter.
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Post by CharlesX on May 16, 2022 7:43:13 GMT
Magehunter is literally impossible with about half the dice combinations you could roll for starting stats, odds of 5-15% with half-expected stats, and 15-19.5% with optimal stats (Champskees table). I say this is unfairly hard, especially given the criticism for JG over Knights Of Doom, Curse Of The Mummy and Bloodbones where the odds are above that. Or Ian's Trial Of Champions. The fight with Mencius is fundamental, so suggesting Magehunter would be easier if not for that is like suggesting Sky Lord would be easier if not for the spaceship combats. Or that Masks Of Mayhem would be easy if not for the do-or-die rolls. I don't see a problem saying that the book is easy save for one fight. City of Thieves is easy apart from the fight with the moon dogs. I would still say it's overall an easy book. Same with Magehunter. On rereading Champskees table I notice Magehunter's odds are better than I thought (though still well below 50%), so I guess we can agree to disagree. I think one problem might be the Mencius fight and the Moondogs are both near the end of the game, meaning a Skill 10\Skill 8 PC in either case has to play through the whole book knowing they will probably die. Some would call that atmosphere, I call it cruelty.
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Post by terrysalt on May 16, 2022 8:02:50 GMT
I think both fights are poorly implemented. I think we just disagree on whether a book can be overall easy if there's one difficult fight in it.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Oct 31, 2022 4:11:14 GMT
To Triumph in the Isles of the Dawn and Sweep Back the Crimson Tide, Listen to the Wisdom of the Mudworm
(That is to say: I had a thought about this.) As discussed, the way to win The Crimson Tide is to be given the keywords When King Offers Sword Turn To 198 and follow that instruction. But the word 'when' is statistically difficult to get and whilst you can sort of find your way without it, it doesn't feel satisfactory. So if you 'pass' the Ferocity roll or 'fail' it but lose to Death's Messenger, your mission is doomed. But that's not quite true. Because if you go to the monastery, take on the search for the clay bowl and find it, there's a choice of which way to go. And whilst you can head onward and tell Meng where you are to progress further, you can also head back through the double doors. If you do that, you wake up from the nightmare of what happened to your parents only to find it was a premonition and you are sent back to para 1 with your notes and equipment scrubbed. Now at this point you may be thinking, "Look Mudworm, if I'd wanted to restart from para 1 I'd just have twisted the magistrate's nipples or something." which is fair enough. But for one thing if you're trying to beat the book by the rules and you'd rolled 6 for Skill and 1 for Ferocity, you might be keen to give it another bash with those stats rather than roll afresh. That doesn't seem to be the only benefit of returning through the double doors though. The paragraph says "Cross all your Equipment and Notes off your Adventure Sheet" but it doesn't say anything about your stats. So taking it as it's written you restart at say Age 15 or 16 rather than 13 with potentially higher Stamina, lower Ferocity and an extra Skill point or two. If you've actually reduced your Ferocity to 0, not only are you safe from the Ferocity roll, you get 2 Skill points into the bargain! Another bonus from the point of view of varying gameplay: If you want to press on for the win you must refuse training in martial arts at the monastery until you are given the word 'sword' by default. But if you are planning to return through the double doors anyway, you are better off going for training including 'wood' or possibly 'crane'. Even if you get way off track from the true path, wind up escaping from prison via the tunnels and end up in the white face monastery, you can still improve your stats by learning 'spider' before seeking the bowl and return through the double doors! (I don't recommend this mind you – you have to beat a Skill 10 Stamina 12 monk and your Ferocity won't have dropped as much – but it's a slim chance compared to a guaranteed failure and not as slim as some books!) Is all this cheating? I don't think so – in fact I wonder whether it was intended. There are a couple of reasons why I wonder that, for example that reaching para 200 pointedly gives you the option of 'failing' Ferocity rolls permanently. Something that is seemingly useless after you are likely to have achieved it, but so crucial early on.
I'll write up a little cameo insert for the solution above shortly, but what do people think of this reading?
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Post by terrysalt on Oct 31, 2022 6:04:36 GMT
It's not cheating because nothing in the rules prohibits it. It may be against the spirit of the rules (and I'll leave that for Paul to clarify if he wishes) but by the rules as written, you're doing nothing wrong.
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Post by CharlesX on Oct 31, 2022 6:33:40 GMT
Restarting with a higher age in particular seems to me to make very little sense. Think about it - you could do that over and over until you are an old man of 100 .
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Post by terrysalt on Oct 31, 2022 7:35:58 GMT
Restarting with a higher age in particular seems to me to make very little sense. Think about it - you could do that over and over until you are an old man of 100 . It doesn't have to make sense. It just has to comply with the rules, which it does.
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Post by daredevil123 on Oct 31, 2022 10:25:53 GMT
Restarting with a higher age in particular seems to me to make very little sense. Think about it - you could do that over and over until you are an old man of 100 . I think once you reach the age of 18 you can't increase your stats any more?
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Post by terrysalt on Oct 31, 2022 10:50:17 GMT
Restarting with a higher age in particular seems to me to make very little sense. Think about it - you could do that over and over until you are an old man of 100 . I think once you reach the age of 18 you can't increase your stats any more? That's correct. You can use the loop to increase your stats by quite a lot but the benefits are not infinite.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 1, 2022 0:59:11 GMT
Restarting with a higher age in particular seems to me to make very little sense. Think about it - you could do that over and over until you are an old man of 100 . Yes I'd considered that. If you use the loop a large number of times it's true that you can end up being over 100 with even more aged parents (and you're not even the eldest child because Sunai is older than you!) but this doesn't strike me as a particularly bad glitch as FF books go.
Perhaps it would be better if there were a check at the double doors that if you've been back through them once you find them barred, or better that you find yourself trapped in your own mind forever. But I imagine if Paul Mason or any other FF author did this deliberately, they would say "OK then it breaks, I didn't write this book to be proof against the sort of maniac who would choose to re-read the same sequence of paragraphs dozens of times whilst cackling about it just to stick it to me." especially as... Restarting with a higher age in particular seems to me to make very little sense. Think about it - you could do that over and over until you are an old man of 100 . I think once you reach the age of 18 you can't increase your stats any more? ...this is absolutely correct, your Skill and Stamina set into initial scores (it seems a particularly inappropriate use of that word here) and your Luck is not increased by age/events so the benefits of treating the return route like a carousel rapidly diminish. I think you can send your Ferocity plunging to ever more negative numbers if so inclined!
Most players will find returning once is enough.
It's worth mentioning that to get to the double doors in the first place you have to defeat a Skill 6 Stamina 6 monk (or Skill 8 Stamina 8 if you've learned 'wood', or Skill 10 Stamina 12 if you are in whiteface) before tackling the Ferocity test with much improved chances and fighting the Skill 6 Stamina 6 Death's Messenger. It's unlikely that you would best the monk and then fail to get the word 'when'. There's a small chance that going round twice would help, but more times than that is vanishingly unlikely to benefit you.On the true path after the monastery there are no significant combats or statistical challenges (a failed Luck test might see you facing a Skill 4 Stamina 10 opponent, big whoop – and this is after you've hopefully picked up the +2AS Sacred Sword of Tsui!) so there's nothing worth piling on the Skill and Stamina points for anyway. There's no Reiner Heydrich, Red Dragon, Shanzikuul or whoever to build up to.
I think the most exciting thing about this (no seriously, I'm excited ) is that I think that there's a route for which even someone rolling the worst possible stats has a slim chance. I'll work through that and present it for judgment soon.
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Post by terrysalt on Nov 1, 2022 2:58:41 GMT
Minimum stats won't work as there's 2 unavoidable damage at the start. Skill 1 stamina 3 might be viable with your new strategy.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Nov 1, 2022 14:44:14 GMT
Minimum stats won't work as there's 2 unavoidable damage at the start. Skill 1 stamina 3 might be viable with your new strategy. Spoiler tags either because I'm enjoying my own deviousness or because I'm not sure I'm on the money: That's exactly the question that I'm raising. If you want to pick up the word 'when', you have to lose 2 Stamina, I agree, which is a bummer if you've rolled 2 for Stamina.
But now the situation is a bit different because the question is: If you only have 2 Stamina points, what if you make no attempt at all to pick up the word 'when' (at first)? Can you dodge the Stamina loss and still find your way to the monastery? If so you might have picked up a Stamina point or two before the crunch point.
I don't want to labour this too much in case I've made a mistake.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,547
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Nov 1, 2022 15:23:05 GMT
If you only have 2 Stamina points, what if you make no attempt at all to pick up the word 'when' (at first)? Can you dodge the Stamina loss and still find your way to the monastery? Yes, you can do it. Abandoning Hani or going cross-country at the start means having to beat the Mudworm (tricky with 2 Stamina even if you start with 6 Skill and reduce the Mudworm's Skill to 6). It also means you get the codewords 'art' and (if you abandon Hani) 'never' so the message will be messed up. So these options are no good.
So, you're going to have to try to ambush the mercenary instead. This requires a Ferocity roll. Rolling under your Ferocity score will send you to the arena - it's difficult to escape as you need to win a tough combat and then pass a Ferocity roll and even if you make that, you will get the word 'arena' so that's no good. So when ambushing the mercenary you need to roll equal to or greater than your Ferocity score instead - this shouldn't be too hard as if your Stamina is only 2, your Ferocity will be 2-7. Doing this will send you to the slave mines. If you escape from these (this require passing a Luck test), you can then go on to the monastery. The first codeword you will get is 'offers'. However, a possible issue with any of these looping strategies is you have to record the words in the order you acquire them. So you can't get the proper message if 'when' isn't the first word you get.
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