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Post by Wilf on Jun 4, 2022 22:19:37 GMT
Round 7:
All answers must be taken from one or more of the following texts:
a) The 69 Fighting Fantasy gamebooks published by Puffin, Wizard, and Scholastic. b) The 4 gamebooks (and the Spell Book) in the Steve Jackson's Sorcery! series. c) The 2 gamebooks in the Clash Of The Princes boxset. d) Fighting Fantasy: The Role-Playing Game and The Riddling Reaver. e) Out Of The Pit and Titan: The Fighting Fantasy World.
The four titles in d) and e) are not considered to be gamebooks.
1. Name a Fighting Fantasy gamebook author whose name (as given on the cover or the title page) ends with the letter n.
2. Name a Puffin Fighting Fantasy gamebook illustrated by Martin McKenna.
3. Describe a way in which YOU could die in the gamebook Deathtrap Dungeon, other than in combat. (Please provide at least one reference number where YOU could die in this manner.)
4. Name a weapon or piece of armour which has its own individual name. (Please provide the name of the book containing the named item, and identify a section of text in which its name is given.)
5. Identify a full page internal illustration in a Fighting Fantasy book which depicts a skeletal creature. (Please name the book in which it appears.)
6. Name a god or goddess who might talk to YOU in a Fighting Fantasy gamebook. (Please name a gamebook and identify a section of text within it in which this deity speaks to YOU.)
7. Name or otherwise identify a planet YOU can spend time on in a Fighting Fantasy gamebook. (Please name a gamebook which is partly or wholly set on this planet.)
8. Give the first line of a rhyme YOU might read or hear in a Fighting Fantasy book. (Please name the book and identify the section of text in which the rhyme appears.)
9. Name one of Cinnabar's crew who you can fight in the usual manner (i.e. there is a reference which gives their Skill and Stamina scores) in the gamebook Bloodbones.
10. Name a robot YOU can commandeer in the gamebook Robot Commando.
Please PM me your answers by midnight on Saturday 11th June, and I'll endeavour to post the results within 24 hours.
Best of luck!
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jun 4, 2022 23:34:07 GMT
1.) Can it be just the First Name as well as the Full Name?
5.) I take it you mean completely skeletal without also meaning partly skeletal (i.e. still has a bit of meat on it)?
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Post by Wilf on Jun 5, 2022 0:04:42 GMT
1.) If the first name as given on the cover or title page is the only name, then last letter of the first name ends the name. If it is not, it doesn't. (I think the illustrator Emmanuel is the only person in FF to whom this applies; no authors AFAIK).
5.) I will listen to any justification you wish to provide for this (or any other) answer in your PM. If you've got an answer that might be open for dispute, persuade me! I think in this case, you would have to show that the creature is mostly, almost entirely (rather than just partly) skeletal, though. Its bones must be visible. I'm fairly sure the field is very wide for this one, and still would be if I'd limited it to 'skeletons'.
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Post by philsadler on Jun 5, 2022 10:02:20 GMT
My God I'm struggling with 6.
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Post by Wilf on Jun 6, 2022 21:14:08 GMT
Not half as much as I'm struggling with one of the others!
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jun 6, 2022 21:29:10 GMT
For no.4 how specific does a name have to be? Can a weapon be named Sword of Vengeance for example? Or did you mean actual names like Excalibur?
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Post by Wilf on Jun 7, 2022 0:45:38 GMT
I would restate part of my answer to your earlier question: I will listen to any justification you wish to provide for this (or any other) answer in your PM. If you've got an answer that might be open for dispute, persuade me!
In this instance, I am asking myself whether our monarch's name could be said to be Queen Of The United Kingdom rather than Elizabeth. I think you would need to be *exceptionally* persuasive to convince me that it is.
---oOo---
On a completely different topic, I am happy for any player to reconsider their answers to this (or any other) question before midnight on Saturday.
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Post by Wilf on Jun 7, 2022 1:14:33 GMT
As a general note, I am really not keen to answer questions about what constitutes a right or wrong answer. Especially on the thread, where it might rob other players of their right to be wrong.
If you think you're taking a risk with an answer for any reason (including ambiguity on my part), please feel free to address that risk in your response and justify the answer you have given.
I am also happy to be challenged on any verdicts I might give *after* the results are announced, should any player take issue with them.
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Post by Wilf on Jun 8, 2022 11:43:26 GMT
I am *really* regretting setting Question 4!!!
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Post by petch on Jun 8, 2022 19:20:16 GMT
Oh dear...don't worry, I felt the same way about my flying question in the previous round!
Hey, at least it sounds like it will be an interesting one to debate when the round ends, right?
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Post by Wilf on Jun 8, 2022 21:51:34 GMT
I thought I'd made my mind up how I'd adjudicate it. Then I had a PM which changed my mind. And then another which changed it again...
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Post by Wilf on Jun 11, 2022 9:17:25 GMT
...and another which...
...you get the idea.
This is your last day to make me agonise about what constitutes a name. Bring it on!
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Post by Wilf on Jun 11, 2022 23:26:03 GMT
And that would be that!
Thank You for all your entries. Results to follow...
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Post by Wilf on Jun 12, 2022 0:25:07 GMT
"You've been asking a question, and it's time someone told you you've been getting it wrong. His name is The Doctor. All the name he needs."
Let's deal with this one straight off the bat: What's In A Name (la la la)?
When I set Question 4, I was thinking of names like Wyrmbiter or Aelfgar or Nightdeath or Shadowbane or Ropecutter or Singing Death (to give just a few examples which no-one picked), rather than titles, epithets or descriptions (in The X of Y format). As I replied above, Elizabeth is a name; Queen Of The United Kingdom is not. I received no justifications to that particular question which I found sufficiently convincing to change my mind. And yet...
...I then received an answer to a completely different question which did give me pause for thought. For one of the Name A Gamebook questions, one entrant specified a particular edition of a gamebook. Which was not what I asked for. I said Name A Gamebook. An specific edition is not part of a name. The gamebooks are generally called The X of Y...
...oh wait a minute...
...unless someone has given their particular copy of a book an individual name of Pageturner (probably Creature Of Havoc) or Bonfirefodder (probably Blood Of The Zombies), then I've already conceded that an X of Y title counts as a name in the very wording of that question.
Which means I should not rule out similarly formatted answers for Question 4 on that basis alone. If a weapon is known by a title, against my initial instincts, I think I need to rule that that's its name. What constitutes a title? Probably starts with 'The'. Certainly has all the keywords capitalised whenever it's referred to - to my mind, names are proper nouns. Perhaps I should've asked for one-word names in the first place? I did think of that when setting the question, but I didn't want to rule out Singing Death so arbitrarily.
So although it was not my original intention, and against my instincts, I am ruling that a capitalised title which uniquely identifies an item may count as a name.
I'm sure there will still be some controversy over this ruling, as we shall see. This ruling also has implications beyond Q4, as we shall also see. But for the time being, and the tallying of scores that follows, this is my judgment. Happy to listen to any appeals afterwards.
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Post by Wilf on Jun 12, 2022 1:27:48 GMT
The Results:
Thirteen entrants participated in this round.
1. Name a Fighting Fantasy gamebook author whose name (as given on the cover or the title page) ends with the letter n.
A half-hearted attempt to invoke the More Specific Variant rule, should anyone answer with an unspecified Steve Jackson. No-one did: one person specified the American Steve Jackson; no-one picked the series' British co-creator, nor left room for any doubt. I note that this is also an instance of something which is very definitely a name, but is not an individual identifier... but let's not go there - Question 4 is troublesome enough already.
Answers Given:
4x Paul Mason (Philsadler / Greenspine / Petch / Kieran) 2x Jonathan Green (Bloodbeasthandler / Peter) 2x Jamie Thomson (Sylas / Tyrion) 1x Steve Jackson US (Adrius) 1x Martin Allen (Charles X) 1x Keith Martin (Gabe Fandango) 1x Andrew Chapman (Vastariner) 1x Charlie Higson (Thealmightymudworm).
It seems the members of this forum think that authors who are also members of this forum might be somehow less memorable than those who are not. No, I don't understand that logic either!
1st (1pt): Adrius / Charles X / Gabe Fandango / Vastariner / Thealmightymudworm 6th (2pts): Bloodbeasthandler / Peter / Sylas / Tyrion 10th (4pts): Philsadler / Greenspine / Petch / Kieran
2. Name a Puffin Fighting Fantasy gamebook illustrated by Martin McKenna.
That would be the Puffin edition of a book originally published by Puffin, then. Think that's pretty clear...
Answers Given:
3x Legend Of The Shadow Warriors (Greenspine / Petch / Vastariner) 3x Return To Firetop Mountain (Peter / Kieran / Tyrion) ...but see below. 2x Daggers Of Darkness (Philsadler / Bloodbeasthandler) 1x Dead Of Night (Adrius) 1x Moonrunner (Charles X) 1x Revenge Of The Vampire (Gabe Fandango) 1x Vault Of The Vampire (Thealmightymudworm).
No takers for Legend Of Zagor or Curse Of The Mummy, superbly illustrated though they may be.
Controversy Corner:
Peter's answer of Return To Firetop Mountain was qualified with "Wizard Edition". This is the answer that (quite tangentially) made me consider my ruling in the previous post. And at first glance, it's a suicidal move that's clearly wrong. Except... Return To Firetop Mountain is a Puffin Gamebook, and was illustrated by the late, great Mr. McKenna in both editions. I asked entrants to name a gamebook, not a specific edition of a gamebook, and Peter did. "Wizard Edition" is not part of that gamebook's name. But then, "American" or "US" is not part of the name of the author of Scorpion Swamp. Now how would I have dealt with that again? I am ruling that "Wizard Edition" makes this a More Specific Variant answer. Ordinarily, this would net Peter one point (no-one else answered with that specific edition), but Kieran and Tyrion still get three points apiece, as the named gamebook was still named by three entrants. Except, by specifying "Wizard Edition", Peter's correct answer has been turned into a wrong one. I will consider any appeals relating to this verdict.
However, I will not consider any arguments relating to this one:
Wrong: Eye Of The Dragon (Sylas). Was never published by Puffin.
1st (2pts): Adrius / Charles X / Gabe Fandango / Thealmightymudworm 5th (4pts): Bloodbeasthandler / Vastariner 7th (5pts): Tyrion 8th (6pts): Philsadler 9th (7pts): Greenspine / Petch / Kieran 12th (16pts): Peter / Sylas.
Well that got spicy very quickly! More to follow...
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Post by Peter on Jun 12, 2022 1:53:15 GMT
No argument from me. I messed up there.
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Post by Wilf on Jun 12, 2022 2:11:01 GMT
3. Describe a way in which YOU could die in the gamebook Deathtrap Dungeon, other than in combat.
There are many ways to die in Deathtrap Dungeon, so you'd be very unlucky to clash with someone here. I have no problem accepting that any form of Stamina loss constitutes a way you could die, so long as it is possible to fight a battle or otherwise lose the rest of your Stamina points beforehand. I checked this for all such answers given, and am happy that there were no wrong answers to this question.
Answers Given:
2x Neck snapped by a Rock Grub (Bloodbeasthandler / Tyrion) 2x Drowning (Gabe Fandango / Vastariner) 2x Drinking Acid (Petch / Peter) 1x Struck by a Falling Stalactite (Adrius) 1x Falling into a Pit (Philsadler) 1x Shot by Arrows (Charles X) 1x Struck by an Energy Bolt at the Exit Door (Greenspine) 1x Bitten by a Spider (Sylas) 1x Speared by a Goblin (Kieran) 1x Petrified by Medusa (Thealmightymudworm).
Gabe Fandango pointed to a reference in which you were swept to your death in the river. Drowning was implied but not specified at this reference, but as it is possible to drown elsewhere in the book, I allowed it without further thought. I asked for the manner of your death, not the circumstances leading up to it. Mercifully, Greenspine's specifying a particular sequence of gems in his answer is academic.
1st (3pts): Adrius / Charles X / Thealmightymudworm 4th (4pts): Gabe Fandango 5th (6pts): Bloodbeasthandler / Vastariner 7th (7pts): Tyrion / Philsadler 9th (8pts): Greenspine / Kieran 11th (9pts): Petch 12th (17pts): Sylas 13th (18pts): Peter.
4. Name a weapon or piece of armour which has its own individual name.
There was only one clash here. However, there were a lot of answers that I was unconvinced about, but most of which I reluctantly deem correct as per my earlier post.
Answers Given:
2x Bokhorbil (Adrius / Greenspine) 1x Timakron (Bloodbeasthandler) 1x Imperator (Petch) 1x Deliverer (Kieran) 1x Nightstar (Tyrion) 1x Swiftstinger (Thealmightymudworm)
Controversy Corner:
1x The Gauntlet Of Weapon Skill (Philsadler) 1x The Wulfen Sword (Charles X) 1x The Sword Of Jeren (Gabe Fandango) 1x The Giver Of Sleep To Those Who Never Can (Peter) 1x The Mace Of Mabuz (Sylas)
I am happy that all of these are proper nouns and therefore qualify as names. But there was one answer that I'm still not convinced about:
WRONG: Sog's helmet (Vastariner). Is never styled as a proper noun by the author. I will consider any appeals relating to this verdict, or any other in this Controversy Corner.
I deliberately did not specify that answers should be from a gamebook, so Timakron (from The Riddling Reaver) and The Sword Of Jeren (from Titan: The Fighting Fantasy World) are perfectly acceptable in that regard, and well done to Bloodbeasthandler and Gabe Fandango for spotting that.
1st (4pts): Charles X / Thealmightymudworm 3rd (5pts): Adrius / Gabe Fandango 5th (7pts): Bloodbeasthandler 6th (8pts): Tyrion / Philsadler 8th (9pts): Kieran 9th (10pts): Greenspine / Petch 11th (18pts): Sylas 12th (19pts): Peter 13th (20pts): Vastariner.
As I type, it's gone 3am. Please forgive me if the other six questions wait until Sunday evening.
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Post by Gabe Fandango on Jun 12, 2022 2:24:26 GMT
I know my answer has been judged acceptable, but I just want to state my own justification for my answer:
Usually, the format "The X of X" is controversial because it can really be more of a description, a moniker or a title than an actual name. The Queen of UK literally is the queen of that named country, so it's a description of her position.
But if you read the section on the Sword of Jeren, it was NOT owned by anyone named Jeren, and it was not stated to be forged by anyone named that either. The prince who was first given the sword, Prince Gethel Aranang, was specifically named, and he had an entirely different name where the word Jeren was never mentioned. So it's not a mere description of "something owned by this person". I would not have submitted the answer if it had been Sword of Gethel, or Aranang.
And it's not a moniker, because that was also specifically said to be the Sword of Friendship, meant as a symbol of alliance between the elves and the humans. It describes the purpose of its creation and what it's meant to symbolize.
With all that said, I don't see why it should be considered anything other than a proper name.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jun 12, 2022 6:22:10 GMT
It seems the members of this forum think that authors who are also members of this forum might be somehow less memorable than those who are not. No, I don't understand that logic either! I'd noticed in previous games, people had avoided picking Paul even when he was a viable answer. This turned out to be the exception to that rule.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Jun 12, 2022 6:35:29 GMT
It seems the members of this forum think that authors who are also members of this forum might be somehow less memorable than those who are not. No, I don't understand that logic either! I'd noticed in previous games, people had avoided picking Paul even when he was a viable answer. This turned out to be the exception to that rule. Yep. He was my first choice this time around but I changed my mind at the last moment. Lucky the score wasn't even higher.
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Post by Peter on Jun 12, 2022 8:24:46 GMT
Hahaha. My first thoughts for the first four questions: Steve Jackson UK, Moonrunner, falling off the idol, The Giver of Sleep. I would have 5 points at this stage.
Too much over-thinking.
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Post by vastariner on Jun 12, 2022 9:08:33 GMT
There is no linguistic difference between the Helmet of Sog (which would be acceptable) and Sog's helmet (which is apparently not). It is never styled as a mere helmet.
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Post by Wilf on Jun 12, 2022 9:39:42 GMT
5. Identify a full page internal illustration in a Fighting Fantasy book which depicts a skeletal creature.
Fighting Fantasy gamebooks are notorious in certain quarters for their inclusion of skeletons. I hadn't realised how much so, until it was pointed out to me on another forum a few years back. So this hastily-written question was included to replace one which the previous quizmaster had unwittingly included in Round 6 (I was originally going to ask for a gamebook in which you can ride a horse). I concede the question is ambiguous, and doesn't discount the skeletal remains of a dead creature, so there were one or two answers given which I ummed and ahhed over for a bit before realising I had to accept. My fault; no penalties awarded. You'd be unlucky to clash with another entrant here, so wide is the scope, and there were no wrong answers.
Answers Given:
2x The Pan-Terric Behemoth (Adrius / Vastariner) 1x Major Thassaloss (Philsadler) 1x Ghoul from Clash Of The Princes: The Warrior's Way (Bloodbeasthandler) 1x Ungoth (Charles X) 1x Caged skeleton at the start of Dead Of Night (Gabe Fandango) 1x Fiery skeleton from Beneath Nightmare Castle (Greenspine) 1x Skeletal Horde in Deathmoor (Petch) 1x Skeletons in Room 6 of Shaggradd's Hives Of Peril (Peter) 1x Skeleton Crew in Stormslayer (Sylas) 1x Sulphur Ghost in the Scholastic edition of Khare - Cityport Of Traps (Kieran) 1x Skeleton Men in Temple Of Terror (Tyrion) 1x Dwarf caged in a Dragon Skeleton in Fangs Of Fury (Thealmightymudworm).
I had to find an image of the Sulphur Ghost online, as I was unaware it now had its own illustration. One of the better ones from that range, though that's probably damning it with faint praise. Props to Peter for spotting I didn't specify "gamebook" in the question; again, this was deliberate. Part of these quizzes is to read the question carefully. (Another part is to write them carefully, of course, but never mind!)
1st (5pts): Charles X / Thealmightymudworm 3rd (6pts): Gabe Fandango 4th (7pts): Adrius 5th (8pts): Bloodbeasthandler 6th (9pts): Tyrion / Philsadler 8th (10pts): Kieran 9th (11pts): Greenspine / Petch 11th (19pts): Sylas 12th (20pts): Peter 13th (22pts): Vastariner.
6. Name a god or goddess who might talk to YOU in a Fighting Fantasy gamebook.
I was toying with the idea of setting a question with exactly two correct answers. In fact, if I had, it would have been to name one of the authors of The Warlock Of Firetop Mountain. This was actually included in one of the mocking posts upthread, so I instantly discarded the question! I thought of setting another, but decided against. I did, though, want to include a couple with a deliberately limited scope, and this was one of them. There are answers, though - I count at least twelve, so almost enough for it to be possible for everyone to answers uniquely. I daresay there's a couple I haven't thought of, too. In light of my ruling on Question 4, both The Horned God and The Mad God are deemed to be names.
2x Logaan (Philsadler / Gabe Fandango) 2x Time (Bloodbeasthandler / Petch) 2x The Horned God (Charles X / Vastariner) 2x Throff (Greenspine / Peter) 1x Galana (Adrius) 1x The Mad God (Sylas) 1x Fate (Kieran) 1x Telak (Tyrion) 1x Belthegor (Thealmightymudworm).
No huge pile-ups, surprisingly. Could've been a lot worse. No-one went for the most obvious answers of Libra or Courga. The All-Mother would also have been a correct answer. There may be many (well... a few) others. I would not have accepted Tabasha The Bazouk purring or mewing at you, much as I like to think my cats talk to me.
1st (6pts): Thealmightymudworm 2nd (7pts): Charles X 3rd (8pts): Adrius / Gabe Fandango 5th (10pts): Bloodbeasthandler / Tyrion 7th (11pts): Kieran / Philsadler 9th (13pts): Greenspine /Petch 11th (20pts): Sylas 12th (22pts): Peter 13th (24pts): Vastariner.
Assuming I've added these up correctly, we now have a clear leader! More to follow, but it's unlikely I'll be able to post the final pair of answers until this evening, so please bear with me.
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Post by Wilf on Jun 12, 2022 9:44:34 GMT
There is no linguistic difference between the Helmet of Sog (which would be acceptable) and Sog's helmet (which is apparently not). It is never styled as a mere helmet. This thought had occurred, and I do believe drawing the line where I have is painfully pedantic of me. But it is never referred to as The Helmet Of Sog (which would seemingly make it an individual name, being preceded by a definite article); always as Sog's helmet (with a lower case h, indicating it is not a name, and not ruling out the possibility Sog may have owned many helmets, so careless is he at losing them).
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jun 12, 2022 9:49:10 GMT
I messed up Q2 not noticing it had to be a Puffin book. My original answer was Dead of Night but I changed it last minute. Oh well.
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CharlesX
Baron
Posts: 2,222
Member is Online
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Post by CharlesX on Jun 12, 2022 9:55:13 GMT
Wilf we don't just have a clear leader - thealmightymudworm has scored one point for every round so far! Is this a record or something?
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Post by Wilf on Jun 12, 2022 9:57:11 GMT
Wilf we don't just have a clear leader - thealmightymudworm has scored one point for every round so far! Is this a record or something? It ain't over till the fat bloke sings. I'll be doing karaoke down my local later this evening.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,472
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jun 12, 2022 10:13:09 GMT
But it is never referred to as The Helmet Of Sog (which would seemingly make it an individual name, being preceded by a definite article) Does a definite article definitely convey individuality though? Richard I was the son of Henry II, but he wasn't his only son.
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Post by petch on Jun 12, 2022 10:37:03 GMT
It seems the members of this forum think that authors who are also members of this forum might be somehow less memorable than those who are not. No, I don't understand that logic either! I'd noticed in previous games, people had avoided picking Paul even when he was a viable answer. This turned out to be the exception to that rule. Yep, this was exactly my thinking too. My tactics for this round - such as they were - were 'go for authors / books that didn't seem very popular as answers in prior rounds'. This has not worked out very well for me so far!
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Post by vastariner on Jun 12, 2022 10:51:40 GMT
There is no linguistic difference between the Helmet of Sog (which would be acceptable) and Sog's helmet (which is apparently not). It is never styled as a mere helmet. This thought had occurred, and I do believe drawing the line where I have is painfully pedantic of me. But it is never referred to as The Helmet Of Sog (which would seemingly make it an individual name, being preceded by a definite article); always as Sog's helmet (with a lower case h, indicating it is not a name, and not ruling out the possibility Sog may have owned many helmets, so careless is he at losing them). It's obviously important that it's known as Sog's helmet though otherwise the options would just refer to you wearing "a helmet". Plus Sog is a cool name.
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