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Post by nathanh on Sept 5, 2022 16:38:00 GMT
I haven't explored the option. I don't think it's a good choice though.
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Post by time4tea on Sept 5, 2022 20:55:26 GMT
I'm fine with initial stats being immutable, they represent your character's physical limits. But that just makes it all the more important that weapons give attack strength bonuses not skill bonuses. A magic sword isn't improving your character on a fundamental level, it's just a better tool for the job so you get a bonus when engaging in that activity.
Yes, this is a good point. I forget that skill is sometimes used for things other than combat. So, ideally magic weapons/armor should give attack strength bonuses and not skill bonuses. Make sense.
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Post by Wilf on Sept 6, 2022 10:54:28 GMT
Received this morning with Secrets of Salamonis. Two new opportunities for Adventuring Wilf to die horribly - hooray! First playthrough will be later this evening, strictly by the rules. Anyone want to predict how I'll snuff it in this one? (Hoping it's not as swift as my death by Decayer in Assassins Of Allansia...)
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Post by time4tea on Sept 6, 2022 11:03:35 GMT
Received this morning with Secrets of Salamonis. Two new opportunities for Adventuring Wilf to die horribly - hooray! First playthrough will be later this evening, strictly by the rules. Anyone want to predict how I'll snuff it in this one? (Hoping it's not as swift as my death by Decayer in Assassins Of Allansia...)
Trodden on by a giant ostrich  |
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Post by a moderator on Sept 6, 2022 12:36:24 GMT
Anyone want to predict how I'll snuff it in this one? Something involving poison. Ian seems to like poisoning gamebook characters. |
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Post by philsadler on Sept 6, 2022 12:39:58 GMT
2/1: high-skill enemy
3/1: instant death
4/1: random dice roll
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678 
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Sept 6, 2022 14:36:45 GMT
Guaranteed victory!
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Post by scouserob on Sept 6, 2022 15:43:09 GMT
Death in combat after multiple skill point losses.
Skill points were lost when you found three goblets of liquid and tried them all, 4 items in a bag including a ring that you now know is cursed, and when you were unlucky in your choice of two helmets.
(It seems you now have a helmet of naffness forever stuck on your head.)
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Post by nathanh on Sept 6, 2022 16:45:23 GMT
I ended my first playthrough on -4 Luck.
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Post by misomiso on Sept 6, 2022 17:32:41 GMT
Shadow of the Giants - The Review TLDR -A strong, classic Livingstone adventure -Well written, full of characters, doesn’t seem to have the insanity of some of his previous item hunts, and it’s easier to ‘cheat’ if you don’t have something. -Good creative concept, and good ‘inciting incident’ to start the adventure -Hamelin scenes are a highlight; classic City of Thieves esc Livingstone, and the Gorgon’s Tomb is a classic Dungeon. -However there is a ‘narrative disjointedness’ about the the adventure; why are we having a pie eating contest if we are trying to stop an apocalypse? Our actions have caused Stonebridge to be destroyed, and lots of people to be stomped by Giants. Very unheroic and a major feel bad. -Other structural narrative issues. Good points -Livingstone’s best adventure for a while. It doesn’t reach the height of his classics, but is none the less solid, fun, and a good read. -The Hamelin scenes are particularly good, as they echo his City of Thieves adventure -And the Gorgon’s Tomb is a fun Dungeon to solve -Lots of great characters to run into -Doesn’t seem to be too difficult, though you will need a good Skill score and a luck Potion and several tries to get all the right Items. If anything a few more necessary ‘numbered’ items for the final fight would have been good to make it feel more epic. Criticisms -It’s classic Livingstone, so there is a lot of shopping involved and if you don’t like that then you won’t like this -A bit short. There are a few alternative paths, and the adventure could have had an extra 50 or so paragraphs to make the final fight epic. -Mechanically there is nothing much new. It would be nice to see Livingstone experiment a bit with another stat of some kind as there are a lot of ‘test your skill’ rolls. 10 provisions at the start of the adventure is way too much as well; better to have enemies with less health and have less healing. -We find a lot of swords in this adventure and it just feels a bit weird. Maybe at the beginning we pick one from three (not two), and that’s it, but we find other items to help us. -There are a couple of Narrative problems with the adventure, detailed below. Narrative Criticisms -There are a couple of Narrative problems with the adventure. 1. Our actions have caused lots of people to die. It’s a very cool concept that we ‘release’ the giants and so start the adventure rolling, however it’s very unheroic to be the cause of so many people’s deaths. An alternative would have been to have had the Giants have to gather their strength before they go stomping, and then we have to kill them BEFORE they hurt anybody. 2. Similarly there is big tonal problem with the adventure. We are wandering around having a great time in Hamelin while massive Iron Giants THAT WE RELEASED are destroying Stonebridge. It’s a problem! 3. Finally, the part of book that goes from Firetop Mountain to Hamelin is very weak. The journey didn’t feel very natural, and it was extremely weird to have the Dwarf just happen to tell us to go to Hamelin as he died. 4. An alternate story beat could have been to return to Anvil and confess to a wizard what has happened (Yaztromo on Holiday?), and then get told off for being greedy and given the quest to go to Hamelin and find a way to stop them, and NOT have the Giants kill anyone. 5. The four Iron Giants are a very good concept, but I can’t help feeling that having ONE Iron Giant and giving them a name and a bit of a history would have been better. It would have personalised the villain and made the adventure feel a bit more epic. Overall a solid Livingstone adventure with some story problems. Good for all fans of Fighting Fantasy and other gamebook fans, and everybody else as well! Well done Ian!
EDIT: I would also say that the hardback book is beautiful. Lovely full page line art illustrations, large text, beautiful paper. Very nice collectors item.
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Post by Wilf on Sept 6, 2022 22:40:20 GMT
Death in combat after multiple skill point losses. Ding! Ding! We have a winner! Started with a Skill of 11, but this had been whittled down to just 4 by the time I encountered the Spider Hag. Even with five successful Luck rolls during the combat, this Skill 7 bint managed to take Adventuring Wilf from 18 Stamina to spider-fodder whilst only taking one hit herself. Should've picked the Skill potion instead of the Luck one (though I daresay I'd have come a cropper sooner if I had...) Not investigated the rest of the book yet, but from my initial playthrough it seems to be standard Livingstone fare - a fairly linear trek with some harsh and unrecoverable penalties for unfortunate choices; well-written if simplistic and lacking in urgency. It's the sort of comfortingly familiar storyline you'd expect with plenty of callbacks to previous gamebooks, and the illustrations are mostly excellent. A couple of gameplay niggles spotted already (you can't take the sword from the Wraith's sarcophagus after taking the pouch, for some reason; nor can you ignore the clockmaker's and the alleyway when you're walking down Hill Street. You can't enter both tents at the fair because you're eager to find Marik, yet you can still investigate everything else. And there's an assumption that the Snark Brothers can find some money in my backpack - I could easily have spent it all by the time I encountered them). But whilst the above are annoying, they're not the sort of outright game-breakers that wrecked Crystal and Gates. Still, this is merely a first impression, and I reckon I've still got half the book or more to explore, so I'm withholding judgment until I've found my way to 400. |
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Post by terrysalt on Sept 6, 2022 23:16:13 GMT
Death in combat after multiple skill point losses. Ding! Ding! We have a winner! Started with a Skill of 11, but this had been whittled down to just 4 by the time I encountered the Spider Hag. Even with five successful Luck rolls during the combat, this Skill 7 bint managed to take Adventuring Wilf from 18 Stamina to spider-fodder whilst only taking one hit herself. Should've picked the Skill potion instead of the Luck one (though I daresay I'd have come a cropper sooner if I had...) Not investigated the rest of the book yet, but from my initial playthrough it seems to be standard Livingstone fare - a fairly linear trek with some harsh and unrecoverable penalties for unfortunate choices; well-written if simplistic and lacking in urgency. It's the sort of comfortingly familiar storyline you'd expect with plenty of callbacks to previous gamebooks, and the illustrations are mostly excellent. A couple of gameplay niggles spotted already (you can't take the sword from the Wraith's sarcophagus after taking the pouch, for some reason; nor can you ignore the clockmaker's and the alleyway when you're walking down Hill Street. And there's an assumption that the Snark Brothers can find some money in my backpack - I could easily have spent it all by the time I encountered them). But whilst the above are annoying, they're not the sort of outright game-breakers that wrecked Crystal and Gates. Still, this is merely a first impression, and I reckon I've still got half the book or more to explore, so I'm withholding judgment until I've found my way to 400. You managed to lose 7 skill? Ian's in top form I see.  |
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Post by scouserob on Sept 6, 2022 23:27:28 GMT
Death in combat after multiple skill point losses. Ding! Ding! We have a winner! Fantastic! 😂😂😂 That guess was inspired by my first attempt at City of Thieves since the 80s when we broke into a wealthy looking house with a Skill of 8 and left (through the first floor window) with a Skill of 3. Served us right for trying to rob the place. Really looking forward to having a go at this one. 😀 |
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Post by Wilf on Sept 6, 2022 23:52:26 GMT
You managed to lose 7 skill? Ian's in top form I see. I actually lost 8 but got one of them back. Investigating options not taken, there are plenty of other opportunities to lose Skill, too. Irritatingly, a couple of these should have only affected my fighting ability, but they're still Skill penalties, not Attack Strength ones. |
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Post by Wilf on Sept 7, 2022 16:24:03 GMT
I think this must be one of the most linear FF books of them all. The story is a good one, although the Giants themselves seem like an anti-climax. The bulk of it is taken up with a shopping trip in a town, in which very few of the items (by Ian Livingstone's standards) are actually essential. The true path is not so much item-based, but avoiding Skill penalties-based - I could easily have had a negative Skill when I died on my first attempt, and there are plenty of further Skill-sapping opportunities to be had in the Gorgon's Lair sequence. Still, I'd say it's a vast improvement on... well, pretty much anything published under the FF banner since Night Of The Necromancer, and anything Ian has written since at least Crypt Of The Sorcerer. But it's far more enjoyable as a story than a game, due to the startling lack of alternative paths, and even combats! Sadly, this gives it little replay value, although Livingstone's worldbuilding and easy-to-read style may well charm me back to read it again, as will Mike McCarthy's excellent illustrations. There are also some subtle (and not so subtle) tips of the hat to previous Livingstone books along the way, which are a joy to spot.
The gameplay itself is fairly unremarkable - there are no new stats to roll and few secret references to find. Annoyingly, the final outcome depends on a last minute 50/50 decision, followed by a Luck Test. I'd have preferred something a little less random. And there are errors, although nowhere near as many as Scholastic's usual amount. On top of any I referred to earlier, 101 points to the wrong paragraph number (you should turn to 314 not 149); there is no bonus from wielding the Vampire Sword against one creature described as "undead" (the Screaming Demon); the coin flipped on 152 should have come up tails... again, these are all minor - the big one is on 162, where there is no option to leave the fair, and therefore if you visited the tents last, you are forced to revisit a section you've previously been to. For all the reassurances that this book had undergone playtesting, there's still a few howlers that should have been picked up on.
In all, though, it's an enjoyable book to read - not without its flaws, but still a fairly strong if unspectacular entry into the FF canon, and a big improvement on the likes of Blood Of The Zombies or The Port Of Peril. 7/10.
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Post by misomiso on Sept 7, 2022 16:30:12 GMT
I kind of agree.
When Ian is on song, his prose and jovial style is very enticing - you see what a lot of other writers miss as he just has a very good tone for the adventure.
I didn't mind the shopping or the tomb as it was very enjoyable walking through the City and Livingstone can still do a good Dungeon, but I agree the final battle was quite an anti-climax. For these linear adventures I think he could definitely go for 500 entries and make it a bit bigger.
And in my review there are other narrative issues.
But overall it has a bit of charm and it was enjoyable to read, and sometimes that's enough.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Sept 7, 2022 18:38:32 GMT
I can only apologise for missing those errors. I playtested the book 5 times and thought I had covered everything. But it seems I hadn't tried every possible outcome. Still, at least I found the other 34 errors.
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Post by misomiso on Sept 7, 2022 18:44:08 GMT
We forgive you Sylas!
Out of interest what do you think of the reviews so far? What you thought? Did the writers ask for any other feedback as well as playtesting?
I love both the books, even with the imperfections. They are such as step up and it's such an enjoyable experience reading them.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Sept 7, 2022 19:17:57 GMT
We forgive you Sylas! Out of interest what do you think of the reviews so far? What you thought? Did the writers ask for any other feedback as well as playtesting? I love both the books, even with the imperfections. They are such as step up and it's such an enjoyable experience reading them. I can't go into any detail but I think the reviews are pretty fair. I suggested a few areas to be altered and they eventually were. Ian was great with listening to and acting on feedback. He really knew his book inside out and knew exactly what I was talking about when I suggested certain changes. I felt he had a lot of fun writing it and it shows. I gave it around a 7/10 |
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Sept 7, 2022 22:02:27 GMT
For obvious reasons, I will not be posting any solutions to Shadow of the Giants or Secrets of Salamonis. But I will have fun seeing what everyone comes up with.
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Post by terrysalt on Sept 7, 2022 23:55:17 GMT
For obvious reasons, I will not be posting any solutions to Shadow of the Giants or Secrets of Salamonis. But I will have fun seeing what everyone comes up with. Is it a legal prohibition since you worked on them or just a desire not to spoil things for people who are only just getting their hands on the books? |
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Sept 8, 2022 9:46:00 GMT
For obvious reasons, I will not be posting any solutions to Shadow of the Giants or Secrets of Salamonis. But I will have fun seeing what everyone comes up with. Not so obvious cause i dont get it. Solutions are welcome! |
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Sept 8, 2022 9:51:22 GMT
When was the last time he wrote a good un? Has he ever? After The Warlock Of Firetop Mountain, which was definitely good, Ian wrote a few half-good FFs such as Island Of The Lizard King, a string of average ones such as Return To Firetop Mountain & his newer stuff has been poor. If i was a dramatic man i would say "Sacrílege!". Livingstone wrote a lot of amazing books: Crypt of the Sorcerer, Deathtrap Dungeon, trial of Champions, City of thieves, Caverns of the Snow witch". And i AM ONLY saying the amazing ones. There are others very good (firetop mountain not included). |
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Sept 8, 2022 18:44:13 GMT
For obvious reasons, I will not be posting any solutions to Shadow of the Giants or Secrets of Salamonis. But I will have fun seeing what everyone comes up with. Is it a legal prohibition since you worked on them or just a desire not to spoil things for people who are only just getting their hands on the books? I don't want to spoil people finding the best route through the adventures. |
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Post by CharlesX on Sept 9, 2022 17:26:04 GMT
Just flipping through this gamebook it looks like a real return to Livingstone at the top of his game. The writing and choices are nuanced, the combats are neither very easy nor very hard, the illustrations are excellent, and in both new gamebooks there is a strong sense of atmosphere and enjoyment.
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Post by misomiso on Sept 10, 2022 7:56:33 GMT
The books have been out a week now, and I thought it would be quite nice to have a thread so people could post their reviews.
We've been having chats on the individual gamebooks channel but some threads on the main part of the forum might be more appropriate!
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Post by misomiso on Sept 10, 2022 7:56:47 GMT
Shadow of the Giants - Reviews
TLDR
-A strong, classic Livingstone Fighting Fantasy adventure
-Well written, full of characters, doesn’t have the insanity of some of his previous 'item hunts', and it’s easier to ‘cheat’ if you don’t have the correct item...
-Good creative concept, and good ‘inciting incident’ to start the adventure
-Hamelin scenes are the highlight as they are classic 'City of Thieves' Livingstone, and the Gorgon’s Tomb is a fantastic Dungeon.
-However there is a ‘narrative disonance’ about the the adventure; why are we having a pie eating contest if we are trying to stop an apocalypse? Our actions have caused Stonebridge to be destroyed, and lots of people to be stomped by Giants. Very unheroic and quite uncharacteristic of Fighting Fantasy.
-Other structural narrative issues.
Good points
-Livingstone’s best adventure for a while. It doesn’t reach the height of his classics, but is none the less solid, fun, and a very enjoyable read.
-The Hamelin scenes are particularly good, as they echo his City of Thieves adventure...
-...and the Gorgon’s Tomb is a great Dungeon to solve
-Lots of good characters to run into
-Doesn’t seem to be too difficult, though you will need a good Skill score and a luck Potion and several tries to get all the right Items. If anything a few more 'necessary numbered’ items for the final fight would have been good to make the finale feel a bit more epic.
Criticisms
-It’s classic Livingstone, so there is a lot of shopping involved and if you don’t like that then you won’t like this
-A bit short. There are a few alternative paths, and the adventure could have had an extra 50 or so paragraphs to make the final fight epic. I general making the book 500 paragraphs would have been nice to see.
-Mechanically there is nothing much new. It would be nice to see Livingstone experiment a bit with some stats of some kind as there are a lot of ‘test your skill’ rolls. 10 provisions at the start of the adventure is way too much as well; better to have enemies with less health and have less healing.
-We find a lot of swords in this adventure and it just feels a bit weird. Maybe at the beginning we pick one from three (not two), and that’s it, but we find other items to help us.
-There are a couple of Narrative problems with the adventure, detailed below.
Narrative Criticisms
1. Our actions have caused lots of people to die. It’s a very cool concept that we ‘release’ the giants and so start the adventure rolling, however it’s very unheroic to be the cause of so many people’s deaths. An alternative would have been to have had the Giants have to gather their strength before they go stomping, and then we have to kill them BEFORE they hurt anybody.
2. Similarly there is big tonal problem with the adventure. We are wandering around having a great time in Hamelin while massive Iron Giants THAT WE RELEASED are destroying Stonebridge. We would still be having a great time in Anvil, but maybe a few comedy lines around ‘facing the enemy on a full stomach’ as we enter the pie eating contest would have tied everything together more.
3. The part of book that goes from Firetop Mountain to Hamelin is very weak. The journey didn’t feel very natural, and it was extremely weird to have the Dwarf just happen to tell us to go to Hamelin as he died.
4. An alternate story beat could have been to return to Anvil and confess to a wizard what has happened (Yaztromo on Holiday?), and then get told off for being greedy and given the quest to go to Hamelin and find a way to stop them, and NOT have the Giants kill anyone.
5. The four Iron Giants are a very good concept, but I can’t help feeling that having ONE Iron Giant and giving them a name and a bit of a history would have been better. It would have personalised the villain and made the adventure feel a bit more epic, and then we could have had some cool converstations with him when he was released and during the final fight. ‘Ymir, Apocalypse Giant?’ ‘Chaos Giant of Death’?
Overall a very good Livingstone adventure with a few story problems, but good for all fans of Fighting Fantasy and other gamebook fans, and everybody else as well!
Well done Ian!
EDIT: I would also say that the hardback copy of the book is beautiful. Lovely full page line art illustrations, large text, and beautiful paper. Very nice collectors item if you can get your hands on it!
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Post by misomiso on Sept 10, 2022 7:58:36 GMT
Created a review thread on the main feed so people can post their thoughts and we don't clog up the gamebook discussion!
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Post by misomiso on Sept 10, 2022 8:02:15 GMT
I've read both books several times now, and I think both are great. A real step forward in FF and I really really hope they sell well and the trend continues. I've collated some thoughts on possible changes to the books and where I feel they could have been corrected / improved and so am posting below, however these are very much my opinion and could be completely wrong!
And now I'm going to take a break from the forums for a bit as I feel I've been posting too much! Hope you all enjoy the book as despite the flaws I think it's fantastic. Shadow of the Giants suggested Changes! Mechanical (3) (1) Paragraph 344: There is a ‘run on’ in the narrative in this paragraph, perhaps putting in a paragraph break to distinguish ideas? (2) General: There are a lot of ‘test your skill’ rolls in this adventure. In a future book it would be nice to see Ian maybe experiment with some additional stats or some other mechanical ideas, however there is also something to be said of keeping the ‘purity’ of the Fighting Fantasy system nice and simple. (3) You pick from two swords in the beginning and then collect more along the way. This feels quite strange and breaks the immersion of being an adventurer as typically we only carry one sword? Instead perhaps pick from 3 swords at the beginning and find no others in the adventure (finding other items instead), to make the choice more weighty and more ’Classic story’ (a choice from 3 is much more ‘story’ than a choice from 2). Narrative (9) 1. (MOST IMPORTANT) - We need a scene after the giants are released where the Hero returns to Anvil, confesses to Yaztromo or another wizard (who is holiday) what has happened, and our hero gets told off and given a Quest to go Hamelin to find out how to defeat them. At the moment it’s incredibly unnatural and disjointed to have the Dwarf who dies gives us our Quest, and narratively speaking it makes sense to have a slight ‘downtime’ scene where we get told off for releasing the Giants and are then given our Quest to defeat them. This is very very important in story structure terms. 2. Have a slightly better and extended journey to Hamelin. This was the weakest part of the book. Perhaps map the journey out in the same way a dungeon would be mapped out, and have it take two days with a sleep in the middle. 3. Have the Gorgon’s Tomb hidden BELOW Hamelin, and tie the history of the Giants to the city and the Tomb. This gives the adventure a strong ‘Wilderness - Town - Dungeon’ structure, and takes out the second Wilderness scene. 4. Make Goose a Female Elf Ranger who doesn’t like us who we first meet when she is with Yaztromo when we are given our Quest. Goose is a very good character, but he is introduced quite suddenly so meeting him earlier in the story will make his ‘reappearance’ more natural, and making him a female elf who looks down on us allows for a lot of drama, banter, and comedy. Vale Moonwing? 5. Remove references to the Giant’s killing anyone, apart from maybe some bandits you meet along the way? Or some horrible monsters? Orcs? They definitely should not destroy a town or pick up random villagers. We have to kill the Giants before they hurt anybody as we were the ones who set them loose. 6. Make the 4 giants into ONE giant with a name and a history. ‘The Ferric Giant’? ‘The Molten Giant’? A Giant King from the Dawn of History? The Chaos Giant? Giant of Death? ‘Ymir, Apocalypse Giant’? Giant Slayer? You could even have a dialogue scene or two between the Hero and Giant when they are first released and during the final fight. This would personalise the villain. 7. More Epic Final Fight 8. At the end, maybe the Giant’s body melts away to ash, then when the town goes to investigate there is no evidence we killed the giant so we get nothing! No treasure, no statue, no fame! We just end up in the pub, thinking of how we’re going to get rich again, maybe another try at Firetop mountain would do it….and then the story circle is complete. This means are not rewarded for our greed! 9. A longer adventure overall. An even 500 paragraphs. 10. Don’t be afraid to lean into the comedy and your natural style Ian! It’s very good! I would say that for the next book, along with the play testing which greatly improved both books, Ian maybe consult about the narrative structure with one of his many business contact in games. The ideas are very good; all they need is a little more streamlining and then he will be at the heights of his early books again. |
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Post by drmanhattan on Sept 10, 2022 8:43:56 GMT
Really? I read the Shadow of the Giants and think it's awful. Maybe I am just too old for this stuff now, I just thought it was a tired rehash of boring tropes he's done before over and over again. Nice illustrations but a very boring and pointless adventure with lots of nonsensical "choices".
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