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Post by paperexplorer on Sept 8, 2022 13:32:07 GMT
Arrived in the mail today along with Giants! Cancelling all plans for the weekend as I type. May have to buy the wife flowers
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Post by paperexplorer on Sept 9, 2022 8:43:20 GMT
Gee that guildmaster pictured for reference 120 looks awfully familiar....
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Post by Wilf on Sept 9, 2022 17:12:12 GMT
Enjoying discovering this book hugely. One small question, though: is there anywhere in this book that you can find out who Hamaskis's parents were? Or is this an egregious Armies Of Death style question where the answer is in a different book entirely?
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Post by misomiso on Sept 10, 2022 7:57:28 GMT
The books have been out a week now, and I thought it would be quite nice to have a thread so people could post their reviews.
We've been having chats on the individual gamebooks channel but some threads on the main part of the forum might be more appropriate!
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Post by misomiso on Sept 10, 2022 7:57:52 GMT
Secrets of Salamonis - The Review
TLDR -Brilliant book. By far and away the best FF entry for a while, and easily hits the heights of the early years. -Innovative concept, gameplay, design, and great writing. -Really good having the book as a collaboration with Jon Green as it combined Steve’s creativity with Jon’s modern gamebook knowledge -Some criticisms, but these are very very high level points which shouldn’t detract from the achievement of the book -Overall incredibly enjoyable experience
Longer good points -Conceptually a really really good Fighting Fantasy book. Maybe the best 'hub' design we’ve ever see -Jon Green’s influence is excellent. You can really see where he helped Steve put his concept into reality, and having the book as a collaboration raises the overall quality of the adventure. -The book is just incredibly fun to play. The writing tone is great as it’s not too serious and has some humour, which often gets missed in today's grittier stories -No 'codeword' mechanic! It's incredibly refreshing to have a book with no codewords as it reads so much more fluidly and makes the experience of playing the book a lot smoother overall. -I havn’t mentioned it yet but 'Amonour' is a very good experience system. It works very well and is a very natural extension of the Fighting Fantasy system. -The Easter eggs are all great and lots of fun to try and spot.
Criticisms -The Day of the week mechanic is a bit fiddly for me. It’s another thing to track, and I would imagine is quite bad for new players as it’s quite a barrier gameplay wise. -I felt there was a little bit of a lack of narrative drive - I loved the idea of having the main character turn up in Salomonis wanting to be an adventurer, but maybe he could also have wanted to live up to his father, or find the man who killed him (Cardinal Zym lets say), or perhaps the dream at the beginning is more specific about the coming wars or about the final monster you have to slay. -The ‘Time’ aspect of the book sometimes felt a little bit disjointed. Some quests take a day, where as one training session took 6 months, and you could learn magic very very quickly. Perhaps you could have a different skill to 'world lore', and maybe the main character has some fae blood or a history of studying magic which would make learning magic a bit more realistic to help make the ‘Time’ aspect a bit more coherent. -There are a couple of other tweaks, for example the wording around the training session could have been a bit clearer, and the book could have quite easily been an even 500 entries which would have been much more artistically pleasing,
I would say again that the book is brilliant; the criticisms I’ve outlined are just very very high level thoughts on how you could tweak it etc. I would recommend all Fighting Fantasy and gamebook fans to buy the book without hesitation, and other gaming fans to buy it as well to see how the masters from the 80s can still make great games.
It’s just a great book that is very relaxing and fun to read.
Well done Steve and Jon, and may your Stamina never fail!
EDIT: I just wanted to add there is a lot of great stuff in this book that I havn't covered - the concept of opening with a dream is brilliant and very brave, your 'companion' that you keep meeting along your way, your little excursion to 'somewhere else'! All fantastic and creative achievements and the authors took a big risk in including them.
Finally from a gameplay standpoint the structure of the book is so interesting. It's a real achievement and incredibly innovative, and I really feel that this kind of structure could become standard for 'Open World' type gamebooks in the future. I can already think of lots of variations on what could be done with the format. Marvelous.
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Post by misomiso on Sept 10, 2022 8:04:37 GMT
Secrets of Salamonis suggested changes! I've read both books several times now, and I think both are great. A real step forward in FF and I really really hope they sell well and the trend continues. I've collated some thoughts on possible changes / alterations / corrections to the books, however these are very much my personal thoughts and could be completely wrong!
And I'm going to take a break from the forums for a bit as I feel I've been posting a bit too much! However I’d just like to re iterate how good Secrets of Salamonis is. Such a fantastic achievement in game writing, game design, and execution. Mechanical (4) One - Entry 118: ‘Or, if you have not already returned there, to the docks (45)’. (Clarifies wording and prevents a ’soft’ loop) Two - Training Sequence, discoverable training: ‘Whenever you return to Entry 115, in addition to the options presented you may turn to X in order to train with Y. Note 115-X on your adventure sheet to remember you have this option.’ (Lessens confusion over when you can train). Three - Training ground sequence. ‘After you have gone on your first quest, whenever you return to entry 120 to pick another Quest, you now have an additional option to go to the training grounds. Note 120-X on your adventure sheet to remind you of this fact.’ (clarifies training, and distinguishes between training and the additional quest) Four - ‘Investigate the screaming sky’ transition to ‘the Mines’. Put in a ‘Quest Item’ on the travel route from Screaming Sky to King Salamonis Mines, and when you exit the Mines have a ‘if you have an X option’ if you carry that item, and if you turn to that the Screaming Sky Quest is ‘closed’ story wise (‘You unfortunately did not solve the screaming sky, though maybe you did manage to find out some information about the Mines’). This closes the narrative of that Quest rather than have it fizzle out. Story (1) No real corrections EXCEPT: Perhaps make the dream much more relevant. Maybe see the Screamer Queen and you die from her stabbing you, then reference your dream at the final encounter. I kept expecting the two headed ogre to turn up again, but maybe Steve has saved that for the sequel! General (2) One - Make the book an even 500 entries. I like how some quests are short and some are longer, however you could easily put in an additional encounter in the caravan or Black Unicorn quest to raise the number of entries. 500 entries is a lot more iconic and artistically pleasing. Two - Possibly a different cover? Don’t get me wrong the cover is fantastic, however the book is remarkably heroic and jovial, and so perhaps a really positive cover might help the book sell better, and be more appropriate as the Screamers are terrifying and make the book look like a horror! Maybe something akin to the BECMI Basic set? Where we have the back of a hero fighting the Screamer Queen instead of a Dragon?
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Post by a moderator on Sept 10, 2022 13:00:16 GMT
The books have been out a week now, and I thought it would be quite nice to have a thread so people could post their reviews. We've been having chats on the individual gamebooks channel but some threads on the main part of the forum might be more appropriate! No, the dedicated threads in the Individual Gamebooks section are the best place for reviews.
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Post by Wilf on Sept 11, 2022 20:34:12 GMT
I have to agree with Misomiso. This book is brilliant. It's a buffet rather than a meal - lots of little adventures you can go on, all the while building up your character from nothing. The loops all seem to work properly, allowing most of the quests to be completed in any order. The variety keeps the book interesting, and the flexibility keeps it replayable. The climax requires a few essential items and information, and whilst the final sequence is not particularly lengthy, it's been subtly built up to and feels suitably... well, climactic. There's lots of callbacks to other books (mostly Warlock, Citadel and Creature), with a lengthy dream sequence being very much a love letter to the debut adventure, and a "failure" paragraph that dovetails very nicely into a different book like the ending to Assassins Of Allansia done properly. Oh, and the item you're given on paragraph 480... love it!
I really, really hope this very overdue and welcome return from Steve Jackson isn't his final contribution to the range, but if it is, he'll have gone out on a high.
The artwork is exemplary; Tazio Bettin is among the best FF illustrators we've ever had (no mean feat).
I've got a couple of little niggles, but you know what? They're very minor, and I don't want to be that picky. One I must ask after, though, is whether the Spelling keyword in the middle of the sinkpit in the fen (V---S) is correctly done, because I can't get the right number to turn to however hard I try. But that's about it. Bottom line is that this is an excellent gamebook, worthy of every FF fan's attention, and a fabulous way to celebrate FF's 40th anniversary. I hope Steve (and Jonathan, and Tazio) are proud of the end result, because they have every reason to be. 10/10.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Sept 11, 2022 21:32:44 GMT
I have to agree with Misomiso. This book is brilliant. It's a buffet rather than a meal - lots of little adventures you can go on, all the while building up your character from nothing. The loops all seem to work properly, allowing most of the quests to be completed in any order. The variety keeps the book interesting, and the flexibility keeps it replayable. The climax requires a few essential items and information, and whilst the final sequence is not particularly lengthy, it's been subtly built up to and feels suitably... well, climactic. There's lots of callbacks to other books (mostly Warlock, Citadel and Creature), with a lengthy dream sequence being very much a love letter to the debut adventure, and a "failure" paragraph that dovetails very nicely into a different book like the ending to Assassins Of Allansia done properly. Oh, and the item you're given on paragraph 480... love it! I really, really hope this very overdue and welcome return from Steve Jackson isn't his final contribution to the range, but if it is, he'll have gone out on a high. The artwork is exemplary; Tazio Bettin is among the best FF illustrators we've ever had (no mean feat). I've got a couple of little niggles, but you know what? They're very minor, and I don't want to be that picky. One I must ask after, though, is whether the Spelling keyword in the middle of the sinkpit in the fen (V---S) is correctly done, because I can't get the right number to turn to however hard I try. But that's about it. Bottom line is that this is an excellent gamebook, worthy of every FF fan's attention, and a fabulous way to celebrate FF's 40th anniversary. I hope Steve (and Jonathan, and Tazio) are proud of the end result, because they have every reason to be. 10/10. The intended answer for the Spell loses the S at the end.
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revenant
Squire
Posts: 21
Favourite Gamebook Series: Zork (just kidding)
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Post by revenant on Sept 12, 2022 9:10:24 GMT
Secrets of Salamonis suggested changes! 500 entries is a lot more iconic and artistically pleasing. I have to say this is a very idiosyncratic criticism... 480 is a multiple of 40...12x40 instead of the usual 10x40... Seems aesthetically pleasing to me. Now, 483 or 501 would be just wrong.
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Post by philsadler on Sept 12, 2022 10:03:56 GMT
Secrets of Salamonis suggested changes! 500 entries is a lot more iconic and artistically pleasing. I have to say this is a very idiosyncratic criticism... 480 is a multiple of 40...12x40 instead of the usual 10x40... Seems aesthetically pleasing to me. Now, 483 or 501 would be just wrong. There's a Doctor Who book with 2001 references. Now that's a bit strange.
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Post by Ed on Sept 12, 2022 14:53:45 GMT
Based on two attempts so far, I am giving this one a tentative thumbs up but with grave reservations.
You have to wonder just how much of this book was actually written by Steve Jackson and how much of it
we can attribute to Jonathan Green ?
The opening section is an almost total disaster with it's puerile tone and misguided attempts to be
broadly humorous. I also didn't care for how we are told about what we are saying to other characters.
And a talking dog ? That nearly killed it stone dead for me.
Mercifully, things picked up after I fooled the dwarves with a card trick. A little voice in my head kept saying
" Ok this is more like it ! "
Training, exploring and choosing of quests kept me happy until I perished once more in the sink pits of Bu Fon Fen.
By that stage ,a warm glow of nostalgia was flowing through me as I realised that FF and Steve Jackson had come full circle.
Looking forward to further playthroughs !
Note to first time readers : don't be discouraged by the early section - persevere and you will be rewarded !
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Post by Wilf on Sept 13, 2022 11:52:03 GMT
And a talking dog ? That nearly killed it stone dead for me. It's not the first talking dog in FF (Spectral Stalkers comes to mind), and certainly not the first talking animal - off the top of my head, there's Jesper in Master Of Chaos and the crow on the signpost at the beginning of The Forest Of Doom. And the fact that Dog The Dog can talk is fully justified in the text.
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Post by a moderator on Sept 13, 2022 15:30:16 GMT
Heck, Steve's first non-co-authored gamebook opened with an encounter with a talking dog with a gorilla's head!
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Post by Ed on Sept 13, 2022 18:43:26 GMT
All true but my instincts told me to back off and explore another area.
And I trust my instincts !
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Post by paperexplorer on Sept 13, 2022 22:25:11 GMT
My first attempt ended in ignominious failure by not just dying in my very first combat, but also failing to land a single hit on my opponent. Gah.
It's certainly a unique and interesting concept that on first try seems quite challenging. Lots of references to other books done subtly enough to not be annoying. Will have another try soon.
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Post by Ed on Sept 16, 2022 14:36:15 GMT
Is it just me or is the cover a tad dull with muted colour ?
And the gold foil letters on my copy are already beginning to flake and fade....
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Post by scouserob on Sept 16, 2022 21:26:25 GMT
Is it just me or is the cover a tad dull with muted colour ? I do prefer the Shadow of the Giants picture. the Secrets of Salamonis cover is growing on me, though. It does make a nice lock screen. (Better than Shadow of the Giants, I think...)
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Post by philsadler on Sept 17, 2022 5:09:43 GMT
I love both these covers but I'm not to sure about the position of the giant's legs?
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Post by Wilf on Sept 17, 2022 11:40:16 GMT
...the gold foil letters on my copy are already beginning to flake and fade.... Me too, but only on the spine where I hold the book (the front cover is fine). I don't have this issue with any of the other Scholastic titles, and it's annoying I have it with Salamonis, because that's the one I'm most likely to pick up and re-play.
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Post by Ed on Sept 17, 2022 14:01:00 GMT
For what it's worth, here is my full review - warning - may contain minor spoilers !
A confession up front- I had to cheat in order to progress to the final section of the book.
At times, it felt as if I were reading CREATURE OF HAVOC REDUX, almost like a tour of old haunts from that previous
( and far superior ) adventure. Nothing wrong with re-visiting a classic but it just felt like a re-hash at times.
The GOOD points - The art is very impressive - clear and concise- always a plus in a FF book.
- The Shriekers are a truly frightening adversary and the mystery behind them is ingeniously plotted by Jackson although true to form , he leaves some questions hanging in the air - for a sequel perhaps ?
- The nostalgia factor is very high in this one with many nods to the history of FF.
The NOT SO GOOD points - I didn't care for the patchwork approach of having mini-adventures and then going back to Salamonis
for the umpteenth time. This led to an awful lot of repetition. I just prefer the more linear style
of adventure.
- In order to complete the final quest, you need quite a few rare items to hand and if you don't have them,
its GAME OVER. Business as usual in Allansia !
- As I mentioned before , the opening section is near fatal and very off putting.
So there you go, SECRETS OF SALAMONIS is enjoyable enough but it could have been so much more.
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Post by paperexplorer on Sept 17, 2022 15:05:58 GMT
I was thinking of writing a big review, but I think most of the major points are covered already. All round it's a brilliant concept that is well executed but for cleaner clarity on the training aspect. I would also liked to have continued upgrading my character as the book continued rather than just that one spot as well. I know some of the references in the book have already mentioned, but no one has yet referenced The Trolltooth Wars, which this very much felt like a prequel to. The story here really unfolded well once you got into it, and some of the items were a little tricky to find. I agree there was parts where it did feel like the narrative wasn't pushing forward enough, and that dream sequence (the second one) went a little over-long, but this nitpicking shouldn't take away from how good this book ultimately is. I might have to revisit the old titles before deciding where in the series this ranks, but for now it's definitely in the top echelon. 9 or 10 out of 10
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cj
Squire
Posts: 8
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Post by cj on Sept 17, 2022 19:06:31 GMT
What is the consensus about converting amonour to attribute points once you progress beyond 297?
My interpretation (as for the skill-training sequence) is that once you move beyond that passage you cannot convert later acquired amonour.
This was my approach and in my first play I got battered very early. In my second I trained at the Temple, and it seems that 'Lucky' is pretty essential to allow you to invest all your points into 'skill'.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Sept 18, 2022 9:33:10 GMT
What is the consensus about converting amonour to attribute points once you progress beyond 297? My interpretation (as for the skill-training sequence) is that once you move beyond that passage you cannot convert later acquired amonour. I'd say you are right, that is how I now understand it. Would it be an improvement in the gameplay if there was another opportunity to boost stats? One mistake I made was when converting my amonour into stats I was reducing my amonour rating to virtually zero. [eg if my amonour was 10 i converted that into 5 SKILL points and ended up amonour zero] Was this an error? I think it was because the book starts asking you if you've got more than 16 points and I was nowhere near that amount. This was my approach and in my first play I got battered very early. In my second I trained at the Temple, and it seems that 'Lucky' is pretty essential to allow you to invest all your points into 'skill'. Same here. I felt I didn't have enough points to go round bumping up LUCK scores or even STAMINA. And so the LUCKY skill feels essential. It's 2 amonour to increase SKILL or LUCK by one point, yes? And the same to boost STAMINA (I would have liked to see it be just 1 amonour to boost Stamina by one point) So what's the maximum amonour score it is possible to have by para 297, does anyone know?
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Sept 18, 2022 11:21:36 GMT
Converting Amonour into spendable points does not lower your current Amonour score. You can only boost your stats this way once. 2 points will boost a stat by 1. You do not have to invest all points into Skill even if that appears to be the best choice at the time.
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Post by CharlesX on Sept 18, 2022 11:56:26 GMT
Converting Amonour into spendable points does not lower your current Amonour score. You can only boost your stats this way once. These two points bug me a bit. 297 specifies you may increase the same attribute more than once, but I don't think that's what you mean. Are you saying you can literally only convert your Amonour just the once, or only when ever you return to Adventurers Guild after a quest? The text doesn't specify either or any limitation, it seems to me, which I personally would interpret as meaning you can convert it when you reach a safe enough haven, not dissimilar from eating provisions.
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cj
Squire
Posts: 8
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Post by cj on Sept 18, 2022 12:01:10 GMT
So what's the maximum amonour score it is possible to have by para 297, does anyone know? I managed to acquire 10 in my winning play-through (I got the Lucky skill that time) and I wonder if there may be another couple lurking somewhere. However, 297's statement that neither Skill nor Luck can be boosted beyond 12 implies that there is a minimum of 14 available. I do not see where you can snag that many unless you can train more than two skills (which I could not divine a method of doing) so I wonder if it was loose language. As an aside, I believe that Lucky and Spelling are the best choices for skills and without both I think this is a hard book; with them, I think it a pretty balanced one.
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cj
Squire
Posts: 8
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Post by cj on Sept 18, 2022 12:09:53 GMT
Converting Amonour into spendable points does not lower your current Amonour score. You can only boost your stats this way once. These two points bug me a bit. 297 specifies you may increase the same attribute more than once, but I don't think that's what you mean. Are you saying you can literally only convert your Amonour just the once, or only when ever you return to Adventurers Guild after a quest? The text doesn't specify either or any limitation, it seems to me, which I personally would interpret as meaning you can convert it when you reach a safe enough haven, not dissimilar from eating provisions. I interpreted it as a one-time deal based on the following: "For every 2 points of Amonour you currently have, you may increase your Initial Skill, Stamina or Luck by 1 point." The use of 'currently' guided me here. I also interpreted "You may increase the same attribute more than once" to simply mean you can invest more than one of the converted points (up to all of them) in a single attribute.
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Post by paperexplorer on Sept 18, 2022 12:47:51 GMT
These two points bug me a bit. 297 specifies you may increase the same attribute more than once, but I don't think that's what you mean. Are you saying you can literally only convert your Amonour just the once, or only when ever you return to Adventurers Guild after a quest? The text doesn't specify either or any limitation, it seems to me, which I personally would interpret as meaning you can convert it when you reach a safe enough haven, not dissimilar from eating provisions. I interpreted it as a one-time deal based on the following: "For every 2 points of Amonour you currently have, you may increase your Initial Skill, Stamina or Luck by 1 point." The use of 'currently' guided me here. I also interpreted "You may increase the same attribute more than once" to simply mean you can invest more than one of the converted points (up to all of them) in a single attribute. 100% this. Also, you don't need to boost more than once Really, if you have the Lucky talent then you should really only bother investing in upgrading skill. If you can get it to 11, buy the armour and elven blade with your earnings from the Firetop Mountain dream (25 gold+). that gets you to a starting attack strength of 13. Given the toughest opponent is skill 11, you can beat the book without boosting stamina over 12
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,678
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Sept 18, 2022 15:18:10 GMT
Ah I see the confusion. The question was asked whether Amonour could be spent at more than one occasion in the adventure? The answer is No. You can only spend your pool of Amonour points one time at ref 297 or 389.
But can Amonour be used to boost an attribute more than once? Yes.
The 12 and 24 limits to Skill, Luck and Stamina are not necessary and an oversight on my part.
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