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Post by a moderator on Jul 2, 2020 12:21:36 GMT
Because the readership is 95% male? Also there were gamebooks specifically aimed at girls [admittedly not FF though] and at the height of the gamebook craze. Starlight Adventures. There was also the HeartquestTM series, Endless QuestTM-style fantasy potboilers with explicitly female viewpoint characters, romance sub-plots, and holes in the front covers. As regards Crystal, I'll wait until the book is published, and then judge it based on the text, rather than make assumptions based on the cover illustration.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,462
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Jul 2, 2020 12:55:07 GMT
A couple of the standard Endless Quest books were aimed more at girls too - Circus of Fear and Spell of the Winter Wizard. Both were pretty good imo.
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Post by stevendoig on Jul 3, 2020 5:53:52 GMT
When I was a laddie the 'choose your own adventure' series seemed to have a large female readership (at least in my class ar school)
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Post by Law on Jul 3, 2020 12:54:59 GMT
Also there were gamebooks specifically aimed at girls [admittedly not FF though] and at the height of the gamebook craze. Starlight Adventures. There was also the HeartquestTM series, Endless QuestTM-style fantasy potboilers with explicitly female viewpoint characters, romance sub-plots, and holes in the front covers. As regards Crystal, I'll wait until the book is published, and then judge it based on the text, rather than make assumptions based on the cover illustration. I'll await your review with bated breath! Thanks for taking one for the team if it turns out, well, like 2020 has been turning out.
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Post by vastariner on Jul 4, 2020 8:15:01 GMT
When I was a laddie the 'choose your own adventure' series seemed to have a large female readership (at least in my class ar school) The CYOA books sometimes had drawings of the protagonist in them - and sometimes it was a girl.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Jul 5, 2020 11:00:40 GMT
When I was a laddie the 'choose your own adventure' series seemed to have a large female readership (at least in my class ar school) The CYOA books sometimes had drawings of the protagonist in them - and sometimes it was a girl. Yes I was thinking that. For example there was one where you were a girl trained as a ninja trying to help a boy who was mixed up with the yakuza. That sort of aiming it at girls is one thing (as I recall you/she could break down plasterboard walls with headbutts – there was a picture and everything). The cutesification is entirely different. FF's protagonists have usually been theoretically gender-neutral anyway, which is the way it should be imo, but I wonder if having more significant female characters would have helped. For the great majority of the books if you try to describe the plot in three sentences, you'll mention 1-3 male characters and no female ones. There are very few women depicted on covers or in blurbs, or even background sections. I'm talking villains, allies and all the rest. If you start listing off all the most memorable FF characters (Zagor, Dire, Marr, Nicodemus, Yaztromo, Sukumvit, Azzur...) you get a bit of a sausage party. My impression (that's all it is) from reading around forums including hynreck 's review on here is that if girls did get to own FF books they often started with Caverns for obvious reasons. I'd be all for that sort of attracting female readers: more sorceresses (friendly or murderous, it's all good) and amazon warriors (perhaps even with armour not held together with tit tape) on the covers. Less so the whimsical world of wonder feel.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Jul 5, 2020 11:32:11 GMT
Over on the Fabled Lands blogspot, Dave Morris says: In the heyday of gamebooks we knew that 90% of our readers were boys, but I was always mindful of the other 10% (if not, back then, much aware of the fuzzy area of overlap between the two) and made sure to keep descriptions gender-neutral. For instance, if you were running from the town militia, as often seemed to happen in gamebooks, and Jamie or Oliver or Mark had written passers-by yelling “Stop him!” I’d remind them to change it to “Stop that thief!” or “Grab the miscreant!”
It's part of a larger article written by him from 26th June 2020 and worth a read.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Jul 6, 2020 7:33:56 GMT
Thanks to what's been pointed out above we've established that there were gamebooks, interactive fiction, choose your own path books (or whatever you might want to call them) either written in an inclusive manner, written with girls in mind, or in fact written for girls. And at the height of the gamebook buzz in the 80's. So watch out for people who say otherwise, they are mistaken.
Also let's bear in mind that publishers and authors like to reach as wide an audience as possible both to be appreciated and to make more money.
If there's money in it, it happens.
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Post by schlendrian on Jul 7, 2020 17:09:14 GMT
Over on the Fabled Lands blogspot, Dave Morris says: In the heyday of gamebooks we knew that 90% of our readers were boys, but I was always mindful of the other 10% (if not, back then, much aware of the fuzzy area of overlap between the two) and made sure to keep descriptions gender-neutral. For instance, if you were running from the town militia, as often seemed to happen in gamebooks, and Jamie or Oliver or Mark had written passers-by yelling “Stop him!” I’d remind them to change it to “Stop that thief!” or “Grab the miscreant!”It's part of a larger article written by him from 26th June 2020 and worth a read. I'd say that fabled lands did have a fair share of female pro- and antagonists, so his commitment certainly shows. At least some of the pre-generated characters were female.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Jul 7, 2020 17:55:53 GMT
In Once Upon a Time in Arabia (which would have have been released as a FF book 'The Thief of Arantis' if the series had not been cancelled) you have the option to be male or female and Dave Morris does it very well .. once you are already into the adventure you'll get text like '... Are you a female turn to 123, if you are male turn to 234' for example, because what you are can modify the attitude of others towards you or narrow or increase your options. It's not an overused mechanism in the book by any means. Dave Morris always puts a lot of thought into his work.
And in those Duelmaster books by Mark Smith and Jamie Thomson where you have to choose from a number of pre-generated characters, there is always a female character to choose.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Jul 19, 2020 6:55:26 GMT
Over on his blog (jonathangreenauthor.blogspot.com) on 3rd July Jonathan Green has set out some 'lessons learned' from running his gamebook Kickstarter projects. Some of it is relevant to FF.
He mentions the importance of a known brand, internal art and ... changing cover designs (among other things).
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Jul 22, 2020 10:21:49 GMT
There are without discussion some magic pearls in the fighting fantasy books. City of thieves Deathtrap dungeon House of Hell Howl of the werewolf
That could be easily added by 5 others: Trial of champions (if you like a tasty revenge) Crypt of the sorcerer (if you like a twisted (weak/strong) enemy) Night of the Necromancer (if you like spiritism) Vault of the vampire (if you like a dark atmosphere) Talisman of Death (if you do not see any fun in this no magical world)
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Post by sleepyscholar on Aug 9, 2020 6:58:35 GMT
Magehunter - As stated before, Paul Mason seemed defensive towards the idea of his titles being re-published based on meagre fees/royalties that were offered some time ago (*my interpretation of what he said in the Fantazine interview*), so Magehunter isn't likely. Not the money. It was having to hand over copyright. If I retained copyright I'd be perfectly happy to see my books republished.
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Post by The Count on Aug 9, 2020 23:18:31 GMT
I guess there's less work involved in releasing a book that's already been written, proofread, playtested, edited etc. Or, at least in the case of Crypt, just written, proofread and edited. I doubt Crypt went through any proofreading or editing process - and unfortunately it appears that nothing after #20 except Tide (which suffered from Executive Meddling...) was looked at by anyone beyond the author(s) and that explains why so many of the later books are filled with errors that would have been found by a proof reader / editor / play tester. Obviously puffin wanted to save money without realising that while milking their cash cow, they were also poisoning the customers with sloppy products.
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Post by The Editor (Alex B) on Aug 12, 2020 3:40:54 GMT
Not the money. It was having to hand over copyright. If I retained copyright I'd be perfectly happy to see my books republished. Yes, that has become more apparent than ever now that the new illustrators don't appear to retain the copyright on their artwork in the new Scholastic editions.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,462
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Aug 19, 2020 10:52:25 GMT
I had a nosy at some of the other work of the artist for Crystal of Storms (Eva Eskelinen) and some of it is pretty cool. Reminds me of the opening to Watership Down.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 19, 2020 11:00:08 GMT
We'll have to see if it holds up in horrible grayscale.
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Post by jmisbest on Sept 8, 2020 12:31:26 GMT
How about we each give something that we'd love to have in a future FF Book?. Here's mine
A Magic Using main villain that isn't evil, rather he is very heavily misguided and thinks that what he is doing will be of great benefit to the world
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Sept 8, 2020 12:49:54 GMT
A dark Fighting Fantasy book is what i want! With an evil task. Maybe inspired in Grimslade's task. I ask for a book where the hero needs and desires to kill indiscriminately, desires to steal indiscriminately. A sadistic book, where the "good ones" are killed without a repentance. And very important, a book where all kind of bad deeds do not result in the loss of luck points. A book where the hero is not an insane guy but a "lucid one". A book where in the end there is not a "turning point" for good. A book where the ultimate success is the result of the hero achieving his ultimate sadistic goal.
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Post by a moderator on Sept 8, 2020 14:13:34 GMT
A dark Fighting Fantasy book is what i want! With an evil task. Maybe inspired in Grimslade's task. I ask for a book where the hero needs and desires to kill indiscriminately, desires to steal indiscriminately. A sadistic book, where the "good ones" are killed without a repentance. And very important, a book where all kind of bad deeds do not result in the loss of luck points. A book where the hero is not an insane guy but a "lucid one". A book where in the end there is not a "turning point" for good. A book where the ultimate success is the result of the hero achieving his ultimate sadistic goal. I think the closest you're ever going to get to that in an official FF book is Seas of Blood. I know you've called it 'childish', but murder, pillage and slave-trading are about as extreme as a series ostensibly aimed at children is ever going to get away with. Scholastic aren't likely to be willing to risk the bad publicity that would come from actively promoting evil. Fighting Fantazine, on the other hand... If destroying civilization and killing heroes is good bad enough for you, the next mini-adventure might meet your requirements.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Sept 8, 2020 15:12:59 GMT
How about we each give something that we'd love to have in a future FF Book?. Here's mine
A Magic Using main villain that isn't evil, rather he is very heavily misguided and thinks that what he is doing will be of great benefit to the world Not a solo adventure gamebook but The Riddling Reaver seems to fit this description.
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Post by Wilf on Sept 8, 2020 17:05:23 GMT
There was a missed opportunity when Wizard did their second series of reprints. These had pre-generated characters in the back, whose potential went totally unrealised.
I would like to see a gamebook which has four paths to victory:
- one which requires you to have a high Skill score, with lots of Skill tests, high-Skill opponents to fight, and Skill bonuses to be collected - one which requires you to have a high Stamina score, with punishing tests of endurance, Stamina-preserving defensive armour to be found, and the opportunity to buy plenty of Provisions and healing potions - one which requires you to have a high Luck score, with lots of Luck tests, Lucky talismans to be acquired, and Luck bonuses to be gained
- and a Livingstone-esque item-hunt with secret references and codewords galore, requiring you to have a good memory and a large backpack to make up for your 7-14-7 stats, which should still be sufficient to see you through.
Ideally, these paths should meet and merge and diverge frequently.
This would have meant the pre-generated characters from the Wizard era would each have a different optimum route to victory depending which of their stats was the highest, and would actually have given that little innovation some purpose. But even without pre-generated characters, it's still a good idea, as it gives the adventure four times the replayability. (Appointment With FEAR comes closest to this, but splits the adventure up according to your superpower, rather than your stats.)
(Also, it needs to be well-written and decently illustrated, but I think that's a must for any FF adventure.) A dark Fighting Fantasy book is what i want! With an evil task. Maybe inspired in Grimslade's task. I ask for a book where the hero needs and desires to kill indiscriminately, desires to steal indiscriminately. A sadistic book, where the "good ones" are killed without a repentance. And very important, a book where all kind of bad deeds do not result in the loss of luck points. A book where the hero is not an insane guy but a "lucid one". A book where in the end there is not a "turning point" for good. A book where the ultimate success is the result of the hero achieving his ultimate sadistic goal. Suggest picking up Jonathan Green's Beowulf Beastslayer gamebook, and then turning to the back section where you can play a short scene as Grendel.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Sept 8, 2020 18:19:47 GMT
In my adventure From The Shadows, the 3 pregen heroes I made for it sort of does this, but more so visiting the five main adventure locations in a different order is more favourable depending on which kind of hero you are playing. I'd say, the pregen heroes in Stormslayer does this too with its assortment of starting items (although Aldar is probably a goner judging from his low stats).
Alice's Nightmare in Wonderland also does this especially well.
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Post by a moderator on Sept 8, 2020 18:26:06 GMT
It's not FF, but AIUI the Super Endless Quest gamebook Escape from Castle Quarras does something similar to what you want, Wilf. I played it once, but died almost instantly because my first decision took me onto the optimised-for-weaponskill path, and my character was optimised for stealth. Which could be argued as showing that getting the balance right in such an adventure is tricky.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Sept 8, 2020 19:26:03 GMT
For some reason i see Grimslade (who has not ilustration) as the man in the ilustration of the paragraph 27 in city of thieves.
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Post by vastariner on Sept 8, 2020 20:00:26 GMT
Brice.
You could have an adventure set there which leads to diametrically opposite results - either become a great warrior-leader or turn traitor.
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Post by sleepyscholar on Sept 9, 2020 16:17:34 GMT
A dark Fighting Fantasy book is what i want! With an evil task. Maybe inspired in Grimslade's task. I ask for a book where the hero needs and desires to kill indiscriminately, desires to steal indiscriminately. A sadistic book, where the "good ones" are killed without a repentance. And very important, a book where all kind of bad deeds do not result in the loss of luck points. A book where the hero is not an insane guy but a "lucid one". A book where in the end there is not a "turning point" for good. A book where the ultimate success is the result of the hero achieving his ultimate sadistic goal. Edgy.
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Post by sleepyscholar on Sept 9, 2020 16:23:22 GMT
There was a missed opportunity when Wizard did their second series of reprints. These had pre-generated characters in the back, whose potential went totally unrealised.
I would like to see a gamebook which has four paths to victory:
- one which requires you to have a high Skill score, with lots of Skill tests, high-Skill opponents to fight, and Skill bonuses to be collected - one which requires you to have a high Stamina score, with punishing tests of endurance, Stamina-preserving defensive armour to be found, and the opportunity to buy plenty of Provisions and healing potions - one which requires you to have a high Luck score, with lots of Luck tests, Lucky talismans to be acquired, and Luck bonuses to be gained
- and a Livingstone-esque item-hunt with secret references and codewords galore, requiring you to have a good memory and a large backpack to make up for your 7-14-7 stats, which should still be sufficient to see you through.
Ideally, these paths should meet and merge and diverge frequently.
This would have meant the pre-generated characters from the Wizard era would each have a different optimum route to victory depending which of their stats was the highest, and would actually have given that little innovation some purpose. But even without pre-generated characters, it's still a good idea, as it gives the adventure four times the replayability. (Appointment With FEAR comes closest to this, but splits the adventure up according to your superpower, rather than your stats.)
The Wailing World involved a choice of character types (hero, renegade, trickster, sidekick), each of which had their own best route through the early- and mid-stages of the book. My favourite of these was the last one, who was the sidekick of a hero who had died recently, but who was posing as their former patron. It just appealed to me in story terms, and I was looking forward to all the ways the character would manage to bullshit their way through various scenes.
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Post by sleepyscholar on Sept 9, 2020 16:51:34 GMT
How about we each give something that we'd love to have in a future FF Book?. Here's mine
A Magic Using main villain that isn't evil, rather he is very heavily misguided and thinks that what he is doing will be of great benefit to the world Not a solo adventure gamebook but The Riddling Reaver seems to fit this description. Except that the Reaver is not misguided. His ends are good and wholly rational: it's just the means he uses to achieve them that are wrong. Those of you who think that delaying the arrival of some newspapers on a single day is the ultimate evil may wish to see him as a prophetic metaphor for Extinction Rebellion.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Sept 9, 2020 20:17:31 GMT
A dark Fighting Fantasy book is what i want! With an evil task. Maybe inspired in Grimslade's task. I ask for a book where the hero needs and desires to kill indiscriminately, desires to steal indiscriminately. A sadistic book, where the "good ones" are killed without a repentance. And very important, a book where all kind of bad deeds do not result in the loss of luck points. A book where the hero is not an insane guy but a "lucid one". A book where in the end there is not a "turning point" for good. A book where the ultimate success is the result of the hero achieving his ultimate sadistic goal. In 'Infected' by James Schannep you can be a zombie, breaking into houses and eating brains. That float your boat? A couple of those 2 player Duelmasters gamebooks by Mark Smith and Jamie Thomson give YOU the character amoral or evil choices: As I recall, in the Shattered Realm you can ally with the followers of the God of Death, and if you hand over a load of children to them for sacrifice they send their best soldiers. In Blood Valley from the same range you can be the Archveult - an intelligent but cruel monster who chases human beings down like animals in a hunt.
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