vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Nov 20, 2020 10:04:46 GMT
Livingstone started a little cold .. With forest of doom .. But then he started to warm up .. got incredibly hot with the spectacular city of thieves .. It cooled slightly with the good book Island of the lizard king .. But how could it not be possible to cool down after City of thieves ?? But then he went on to perfect himself for his final stretch with both very good Snow Witch and Temple of Terror .. He was perfecting himself to the maximum that he would achieve with the blazing and perfect climax of Crypt of the Sorcerer ... After that peak of perfection reached. .. It could only go down ...
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Post by a moderator on Nov 20, 2020 10:29:36 GMT
Jean Lafayette... My god even the name is horrible. But asexual. Can't remember whether the Silver Crusader is ever "he" or "him" though.
I'm pretty sure Steve Jackson managed to keep that side of things ambiguous. Not so sure about the sequels, though. For example, the sequence at the swimming pool in Deadline to Destruction has Lafayette running round in just swimming trunks, where a vague reference to a 'swimming costume' would have done a better job at covering all bases.
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Post by a moderator on Nov 20, 2020 10:31:24 GMT
Livingstone started a little cold .. With forest of doom .. But then he started to warm up .. got incredibly hot with the spectacular city of thieves .. It cooled slightly with the good book Island of the lizard king .. But how could it not be possible to cool down after City of thieves ?? But then he went on to perfect himself for his final stretch with both very good Snow Witch and Temple of Terror .. He was perfecting himself to the maximum that he would achieve with the blazing and perfect climax of Crypt of the Sorcerer ... After that peak of perfection reached. .. It could only go down ... Deathtrap Dungeon followed on from City of Thieves. Easy to overlook, though, I mean it is only his highest-rated FF book...
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,470
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Nov 20, 2020 11:06:34 GMT
I'd be interested to hear how everyone determined their scoring as I suspect we all had different methods. I took 5-6 as a sort of baseline: 5 being for books with slightly more bad things than good things and 6 having slightly more good than bad. Then I compared all the other books to that. I was probably more generous than some - I gave out no 0s, no 1s, only one 2 and three 3s. Then at the other end of the scale I gave out five 10s and five 9s. These were my full scores: 10Deathtrap Dungeon, House of Hell, Appointment with FEAR, Portal of Evil, Crown of Kings 9City of Thieves, Trial of Champions, Creature of Havoc, Daggers of Darkness, Moonrunner 8Talisman of Death, Demons of the Deep, Phantoms of Fear, Stealer of Souls, Vault of the Vampire, Legend of the Shadow Warriors, Spectral Stalkers, Siege of Sardath, Return to Firetop Mountain, Magehunter, Bloodbones, Howl of the Werewolf, Khare: Cityport of Traps 7Citadel of Chaos, Temple of Terror, Rebel Planet, Beneath Nightmare Castle, Dead of Night, Master of Chaos, Black Vein Prophecy, Crimson Tide, Deathmoor, Stormslayer, Shamutanti Hills, Riddling Reaver 6Warlock of Firetop Mountain, Island of the Lizard King, Scorpion Swamp, Caverns of the Snow Witch, Space Assassin, Rings of Kether, Sword of the Samurai, Star Strider, Slaves of the Abyss, Fangs of Fury, Keep of the Lich-Lord, Island of the Undead, Spellbreaker, Revenge of the Vampire, Eye of the Dragon, Seven Serpents 5Forest of Doom, Freeway Fighter, Crypt of the Sorcerer, Midnight Rogue, Battleblade Warrior, Sky Lord, Tower of Destruction, Knights of Doom, Curse of the Mummy, Night of the Necromancer, Port of Peril, Assassins of Allansia, Crystal of Storms, Warlock's Way, Warrior's Way, Fighting Fantasy 4Seas of Blood, Robot Commando, Masks of Mayhem, Armies of Death, Night Dragon, Legend of Zagor 3Starship Traveller, Chasms of Malice, Blood of the Zombies 2Gates of Death
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Post by sleepyscholar on Nov 20, 2020 12:47:03 GMT
I was happy to see Moonrunner up there as its presence on my shelves (with very few other FFs) testifies to my opinion of it. If I had voted, it would have won. Not because I would have given Slaves a 0, but because the balance of averages between the two would have been sufficient to tip Moonrunner up to the top. But I didn't vote because it wouldn't have been fair -- I haven't read enough of the books, and I haven't read any very recently, and as I've mentioned, Magehunter is the only book of mine that I actually enjoyed playing.
Ironically, even though it didn't win, this poll has confirmed my feeling that I really need to get hold of Howl of the Werewolf and play it.
Glad to see Darvers and Steve W getting approbation. You may be aware that when Steve and I worked together in the brief entity that was Games Workshop Publications (London), Pete was our boss, and I have to say I have no complaints about him at all. All three of us walked when GW reneged on a previous promise and decided to move everything up to Nottingham. Darvers went on to run the Virgin Books Doctor Who line, and I even got to copyedit him when he did Time Lord, with Ian Marsh.
I'm quite chuffed at Slaves getting the top spot, even though Jonathan Green has thrashed me in the Marmite stakes. In retrospect, Slaves played to our strengths. I provided the background and the insistence on there being a world and stuff happening outside the story, while Steve provided his signature quirks on the event level. My memory's shot, but I'm going to say I think it was Steve who came up with the death paragraph of your sword being pulled from the rubble of Kallamehr. If the book was a bit linear it was because we had never written one before, were figuring it out as we went along, and were doing so in the heyday of the railroaded RPG scenario.
So thanks to Wilf for doing this, and also many thanks to everyone who voted, not just those who voted for Slaves, but those who voted against it too, and even for those who insisted on giving high scores to Crypt of the Sorcerer!
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Post by The Count on Nov 20, 2020 14:12:39 GMT
I'd be interested to hear how everyone determined their scoring as I suspect we all had different methods. I had made a spreadsheet earlier in the year where I rated and ranked the books on different factors: Plot, Writing, Atmosphere, Balance, Enjoyment, Replay Value (and also Cover and Internal Art which only mattered in a tie as the art can enhance the atmosphere). I looked at this but considered my enjoyment more, so some books got a point or two more or less than they'd otherwise get. Except for the Riddling Reaver and Clash of the Princes as my main memory of these is the few time attempting them among my group of friends, it led to arguments, so lost lot more points (though I have read the former since and appreciate the continuation of the world building around this character).
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Post by vastariner on Nov 20, 2020 15:34:18 GMT
I'd be interested to hear how everyone determined their scoring as I suspect we all had different methods. Not scientifically. Basically gave 10 to my favourites, 0 to the one I couldn't stand, and the rest was somewhat impressionist. Occasionally I'd add or take away points for standout issues - the biggest one suffering for that was Revenge of the Vampire, which is unplayable thanks to non-existent proofing/playtesting, and one beneficiary was Midnight Rogue, for its opposite PoV.
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Nov 20, 2020 17:25:13 GMT
Yes thank you Wilf, great stuff. Hopefully there are many new FF books to add to the rankings when the time rolls around to do this again in 2030!
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Nov 20, 2020 18:05:18 GMT
I took 5-6 as a sort of baseline: 5 being for books with slightly more bad things than good things and 6 having slightly more good than bad. Then I compared all the other books to that. I was probably more generous than some - I gave out no 0s, no 1s, only one 2 and three 3s. Then at the other end of the scale I gave out five 10s and five 9s. These were my full scores: 10Deathtrap Dungeon, House of Hell, Appointment with FEAR, Portal of Evil, Crown of Kings 9City of Thieves, Trial of Champions 10 and 9 to deathtrap dungeon and Trial of Champions? You're goddamn right!!!
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Nov 20, 2020 18:25:54 GMT
Can't remember exactly what scores I gave each book but don't think I marked any book lower than 3. There are elements in each book that I liked even the worst ones, and even Gates of Death.
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Post by stevendoig on Nov 20, 2020 18:40:17 GMT
For those interested, I first considered the story, whether it held my interest, and also whether the story developed properly in the style of a novel (which is actually quite rare in an ff), and if it had an 'atomsphere
Gameplay affected my score when the book was either broken, or there were too many battles or footery additional things to take note of all the time.
EXCEPTIONAL artwork added a point to some books, though generally only the rubbish ones as way of a consolation prize.
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Post by Wilf on Nov 20, 2020 20:04:08 GMT
Mine were instinctive, not scientific, and based on how inclined I am to pick the book up again for whatever reason*.
* Not including my desire to pick it up and throw it in the bin. No names, but I'm not thinking of anything in the Top 76.
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Post by tyrion on Nov 20, 2020 21:06:21 GMT
I looked at my bookshelf and thought to myself 'which of these would I enjoy the most?'
Some were based on gameplay, some on story, some on art, or a combination of all three. CoH, BNC, SotA, LotSW and HoH all got a ten from me. Only sky lord got a zero.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Nov 20, 2020 21:36:25 GMT
My criterium was this: What is perfection? Crypt of the Sorcerer and House of Hell (10). What is a little less (9) And so on... And so on... And so on...
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Post by a moderator on Nov 20, 2020 22:51:35 GMT
Like The Count, I gave ratings for different categories and worked out a total based on those ratings.
No zeroes - the artwork saved Zombies, I hadn't read enough of Gates to be able to pass judgement, Sky Lord has a villain with a better motivation and personality than many others, and Chasms has some decent worldbuilding.
Only one ten (I was boring and gave it to Howl). Slaves lost a point for linearity, Moonrunner was let down slightly by the structural flaw where you can miss encountering Radu until the endgame (as twists go, 'this character you've never met before or even heard about is actually someone else' doesn't make the grade), and the maze in Shadow Warriors cost it a point.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Nov 20, 2020 23:21:28 GMT
Crypt of the Sorcerer (10) increased a point for linearity. Legend of Shadow Warriors (8) lost a point for non linearity.
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Post by The Count on Nov 20, 2020 23:30:37 GMT
I gave seven 10's, and seven 0's
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Nov 21, 2020 9:33:08 GMT
Yes, Crypt of the Sorcerer is my favourite FF book. But i will not say one thing against Slaves of the Abyss. It's an awesome book.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Nov 21, 2020 10:48:12 GMT
Ok... Slaves of the Abyss.. Bythos is not better than Razaak.. But the quest of Slaves is very, very good and it has the better 400 of all books.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Nov 21, 2020 11:04:10 GMT
Crypt of the Sorcerer (10) increased a point for linearity. Legend of Shadow Warriors (8) lost a point for non linearity. I have no words.
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Post by peasantscribbler on Nov 21, 2020 13:22:50 GMT
I too usually prefer linearity over non-linearity. However, Legend of the Shadow Warriors is a masterpiece and really showcases what can be achieved with the non-linear approach. Howl of the Werewolf does too. Also, the Sorcery epic as a whole.
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Post by peasantscribbler on Nov 21, 2020 13:27:25 GMT
Regarding #JusticeForChasmsOfMalice... The unmapability bugs me more than the one-strike combat. However, I am a sucker for Tabasha Bazouk, and I awarded an extra point for her. (Yes, I also gave Master of Chaos an extra point for Jesper.)
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Post by petch on Nov 21, 2020 13:27:37 GMT
For 4 of the 5 books I gave a 10 to, I considered the flaws minor enough in comparison to the books' strengths that they were a non-issue. The exception was Deathtrap Dungeon, which is conceptually so irresistible, and delivered with such zest, that I overlooked the fact that if you properly analyse it, some of the issues are big enough to drive a bus through. The biggest one for me is the whole thing about the giant cheering crowd turning up to watch a bunch of strangers walking into a hole in the ground, then after that they're essentially watching nothing. I like to account for that in my mind by imagining that while the events in the book are unfolding, Sukumvit is presiding over the crowd outside in the manner of an effervescent yet slightly sinister game show host, like Killian in The Running Man or Noel Edmonds in Deal Or No Deal.
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Post by Wilf on Nov 21, 2020 15:39:13 GMT
For 4 of the 5 books I gave a 10 to, I considered the flaws minor enough in comparison to the books' strengths that they were a non-issue. The exception was Deathtrap Dungeon, which is conceptually so irresistible, and delivered with such zest, that I overlooked the fact that if you properly analyse it, some of the issues are big enough to drive a bus through. The biggest one for me is the whole thing about the giant cheering crowd turning up to watch a bunch of strangers walking into a hole in the ground, then after that they're essentially watching nothing. I like to account for that in my mind by imagining that while the events in the book are unfolding, Sukumvit is presiding over the crowd outside in the manner of an effervescent yet slightly sinister game show host, like Killian in The Running Man or Noel Edmonds in Deal Or No Deal. I imagine this is why the Baron has Trialmasters - presumably one of their functions is to report back to Sukumvit and update him on the progress of the contestants. Sukumvit can then delight the crowds with whatever details of the entrants' gory deaths he sees fit to reveal.
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Post by a moderator on Nov 21, 2020 16:25:06 GMT
Maybe those glowing crystals that provide illumination also function as, in effect, sorcerous CTV cameras. There would have to be some way of monitoring what goes on between Trialmasters, so if something happens to make winning impossible (for example, a contestant with one or more of the required gems getting eaten by the Bloodbeast), something can be done before the following year's contest to ensure that the next bunch of challengers have at least a slim chance of succeeding.
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Post by vastariner on Nov 21, 2020 18:25:27 GMT
I do imagine there being scrying pools, perhaps broadcasting on camerae obscurae for the crowds to view. Given the dungeon is under constant change, there would be no advantage in scouting out these things in advance.
I also assume the exit gets sealed at the end of the day - otherwise you'd have to have at least someone there for ever in case someone scrambles out three months later.
And the inhabitants tend to be those that are suited to underground life; dwarf, goblins, troglodytes, and minotaurs live in mazes normally anyway.
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Post by petch on Nov 21, 2020 18:47:26 GMT
Ooh, I really like all of those ideas. They build a lot on my own half-formed and much more stupid thoughts about it anyway
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Nov 21, 2020 20:19:18 GMT
My next book I hope it will be Trial of Champions - I love that book.. A 9 to me.. Close to a 10.. I love all about that book.. Even better than the fantastic Deathtrap Dungeon.. Not so good Trial masters.. But in compensation a fantastic gladiator death world, a marvelous revenge wish and a spectacular final encounter. I wish to have the time to feel it soon...
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Nov 22, 2020 0:09:52 GMT
Ow.. I gave a 8 to temple of terror.. But ow... That was such an amazing adventure... Yaztromo... Blacksand... The desert.. The thirst.. The oasis.. Vatos... That stupid messenger.. That awesome 5 dragons.. That lost city... That stupid leesha.. Malbordus... What a journey... I always loved that book... It deserved a 9.. For sure a 9.... That young livingstone was very good indeed... That dwarf sent by Yaztromo... What a book..
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Post by petch on Nov 25, 2020 19:38:59 GMT
A few more random thoughts / observations on the list from me...
Some intriguing statistical peculiarities there that have caused certain books to bunch together in satisfying ways. The 2 Stephen Hand masterpieces tied together in 2nd of course, 2 of the Sorcery! entries ranking consecutively towards the top and then the other 2 being separated only by another Jackson entry (Appointment with FEAR) a bit lower down, Jon Green's first 2 books also placing together in the list...Of all of the Sorcery! books was surprised Khare ranked highest, it's my least favourite and would have thought the epic conclusion to the saga The Crown of Kings would have been the top dog of the 4 by a comfortable margin. Goes to show what I know. Like Wilf, I didn't expect Spellbreaker and Knights of Doom to rank so low. They're both pretty much mid-table in my own rankings (alongside Crypt of the Sorceror, as it it happens, for similar reasons), having that peculiar mix of broken playability but being a cracking read.
Was very pleased to see Portal of Evil place so high! For whatever reason, I'd always assumed that it was perceived as a middle-of-the-road entry in the series but it has always been one of my favourites, and was pleasantly surprised to see that it was the highest ranked of all of Darvill-Evans' contributions. It's one of the ones where I find it hard to put my finger on what makes it so great...I think it's something to do with the well-told, perfectly paced story that develops from mystery to exploration with some beautiful pastoral imagery to the unexpected and gripping conclusion on the other side of the portal itself. Oh, plus, y'know, dinosaurs.
I also didn't realise The Gates of Death was quite so badly regarded as it was. I was aware it was seen as a lower-tier entry but not to the extent of being second from bottom overall! I quite liked it, for what it's worth. Higson had enough respect for the series that he'd done his homework on Allansia and I found his writing style quite engaging. And I accept that I'm likely in a minority of one here, but the whole bum-faced demon thing made me grin like a village idiot. But then I am insufferably infantile for a middle aged man. Maybe I was more favourably disposed to the whole thing than others because of the mental image I conjured when I first heard that Higson had written an FF of him pitching his book idea to the publishers in the style of Swiss Toni, comparing Fighting Fantasy to making love to a beautiful woman, which would have included the phrase 'may your stamina never fail' followed by a crude reference to a four fingered bookmark. I'm sorry. I'll, uh, get my coat.
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