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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 5, 2013 14:39:23 GMT
Bit of a weird one this: For most of the threads it was page 1 which was cached if anything was. For this one I could only scrape bits of page 1 back (chunks of posts may be missing), and page 2 was missing as usual, but page 3 was intact. Hence some quoting of posts which appear never to have been made.
From TUFFF... This is one of my favourite FFs. I love the fact that high stats aren't necessary for the completion of the book (although the necessary encounter with Death's Messenger and the unnecessary one with the Mudworm are both difficult to win; the latter virtually impossible, in fact!). [...gap?...] I love the use of codewords, particularly towards the end of the story. . I love paragraph 400, which is perfectly placed in the narrative. I love the way it dovetails with Black Vein Prophecy, although it requires no knowledge of that book. I love the art, both inside and out. I love the writing style, and the cameo of the Reaver. I love the intricate construction and the non-linear nature of the story. I love that lots of incorrect paths are well worth exploring because of the attention to detail the author has put into the world of this book.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 5, 2013 14:40:28 GMT
From TUFFF... It helps to use the Skill that Paul Mason gave the Mudworm (6), rather than the 12 to which it was raised in one of the more clueless editorial decisions ever to blight the series.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 5, 2013 14:44:15 GMT
From TUFFF... Note also that the chap in The Crimson Tide may ask you one of two riddles if you choose to bow or speak to him. I believe he is the Reaver, and is only ever described as a Monk because the character you are playing could not possibly realise his true identity It's not made explicit, but it's the chap on Paragraph 97.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 5, 2013 14:45:15 GMT
From TUFFF... You need to have solved a puzzle along the way. [In reply to question about how to complete the book presumably.]
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 5, 2013 14:47:34 GMT
From TUFFF... Er, I think you'll find he's just a Monk (see 271). If he was just a monk, a) why does he come back to life again after you kill him (see 70)? and b) how do you explain his appearance being absolutely identical to the chap in para 133 of Black Vein Prophecy (who[...gap...]
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 5, 2013 14:48:24 GMT
From TUFFF... But nowhere is it explicitly stated that he is THE Riddling Reaver! Many creatures on Titan can come back to life (eg. in FF46 see Zeverin), and many creatures/characters ask you riddles (eg. Tatsu in FF20).[...gap?...]
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 5, 2013 14:53:32 GMT
From TUFFF... But nowhere is it explicitly stated that he is THE Riddling Reaver! I know. I said that myself!! . The clues are there, though, and it's the illustration which seals it for me (although it's never made explicit that the[...gap...]
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 5, 2013 14:54:57 GMT
From TUFFF... And then, of course, there's this brief interview with the author, where he confirms that the character on para 133 of Black Vein Prophecy (who[...gap...]
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 5, 2013 14:55:31 GMT
From TUFFF... Paul Mason's over on the Yahoo Fighting Fantasy discussion group, so it might be worth asking him about the TCT instance.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 5, 2013 14:55:51 GMT
From TUFFF... Does this kind of thing count as "canon"?
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 5, 2013 14:56:50 GMT
From TUFFF... Does this kind of thing count as "canon"? Well because we're dealing with author intention (or artist intention?) I can't imagine what would be more definite than confirmation or denial from the horse's mouth. It would be different, IMO, if you were asking him about something which doesn't even occur in the text of TCT. In any case, "canon" is always going to have fuzzy boundaries, and really only exists in as much as it has been defined in some way, by fans or "the authorities".
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 5, 2013 14:59:17 GMT
From TUFFF (following missing wilf comment?)... Luckily there isn't enough apocrypha here to make sorting "canon" difficult in the FF universe. (328) Despite your best efforts, you find yourself decaying in front of a computer screen. Your adventure ends here.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 5, 2013 15:05:14 GMT
From TUFFF... Luckily there isn't enough apocrypha here to make sorting "canon" difficult in the FF universe. (328) Despite your best efforts, you find yourself decaying in front of a computer screen. Your adventure ends here. But it's getting more and more tricky all the time. Just some examples: 1) Stuff on the Official Website: everything from discussion group posts to Lexicon entries. What counts as canon, particularly when things are changed, removed or added all the time? For example, there have been various snippets of news from 'within Titan' over the years on the forum. Are they meant to be canon? And can anyone remember the ones which aren't on the site any more?! 2) Newsletter adventures: these have a final fixed form. But are they canon? 3) Warlock adventures and monsters: Do fan submissions in Warlock magazine have the same status as other FF things? 4) Myriador: What about the Myriador conversions, which are no longer being published and which differ from other 'canon' in various (annoying) ways? 5) Author comments and book outlines: Do things that Paul Mason says on the FF Yahoo! group about his books count as canon? What about stuff on John Green's blog? Or all those unpublished book proposals from established authors? 6) Dare I mention computer games ? Especially those which are based on gamebook adventures but which differ significantly from them (e.g. the new TWoFM game, the DD Eidos game). 7) The Fighting Fantazine: We don't think of it as canon, but there's plenty in it that is, and who knows what its status will be in years to come.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 5, 2013 15:10:45 GMT
From TUFFF (jump from 2009 to 2012)... Finally, some people complain about the fact that "the book doesn't explain anything". You don't find out what that mask is all about, you don't know what is going on all over the land. But I think that in the end it doesn't matter. This book is about what is going on with you. And, if you succeed, it's because you realized that your initial goal, so clearly stated at the beginning, was not your true goal at all. Because your mind is no longer clouded by the crimson tide.
This one will go down as a favorite of mine, hands down!
This post is one of the main reasons I signed up here. In my old age it was just so heartwarming to find that someone had 'got it'. I mean, the book is called The Crimson Tide for a reason: because that's what it's about. The crimson tide, which in the book is used to refer to the madness of a desire for vengeance, is the real enemy. Your real victory in the book is to conquer that desire.
Incidentally, to answer some questions: The weird monastery scenes where you get combat skills from doing mundane work come straight out of tales of the Shaolin Monastery. Of course it's the bloody Reaver, he's in all my FF work (including 'Deathtrap on Legs,' where he's called Jeffrey Archer). 'Keiko, Ambassador of Ai' may be a minor FF character, but she is also my wife of 20 years. There was one other point that I was going to answer, but I've forgotten it.
Yours,
J R Hartley
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 5, 2013 15:17:50 GMT
From TUFFF... Just to follow up the discussion here. {link to the 'sum up FF gamebooks in four words thread' which mentioned Marc Gascoigne's mutant mega-mudworm a lot.} I wonder if maybe Marc upped the Mudworm's Skill so as to make the book easier? He was happy enough to keep the Skill scores of the other enemies low so I don't think he forgot that you play a guy with a maximum Skill of 6 and there's nothing in the text to indicate the Mudworm should be a Skill 12 monster. However, since most readers coming across a Skill 12 monster would think "Strewth, mate! I ain't going this way again"* and take the other path from then on, they'd thereby avoid one of the many red herring paths in the book. The only people who would get past the Mudworm would be cheaters. And as an anti-cheating measure it works a heck of a lot better than that Luck test in Black Vein Prophecy. * No, I don't know why the typical FF player is an Australian stereotype either.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 5, 2013 15:22:04 GMT
From TUFFF... Just to follow up the discussion here.
I wonder if maybe Marc upped the Mudworm's Skill so as to make the book easier? He was happy enough to keep the Skill scores of the other enemies low so I don't think he forgot that you play a guy with a maximum Skill of 6 and there's nothing in the text to indicate the Mudworm should be a Skill 12 monster. However, since most readers coming across a Skill 12 monster would think "Strewth, mate! I ain't going this way again"* and take the other path from then on, they'd thereby avoid one of the many red herring paths in the book. The only people who would get past the Mudworm would be cheaters. And as an anti-cheating measure it works a heck of a lot better than that Luck test in Black Vein Prophecy.
* No, I don't know why the typical FF player is an Australian stereotype either.
Actually I like this explanation. If it's true, I wish Marc had told me.
My problem with it, though, was that it offended my sense of 'realism' to have agricultural lands infested with Skill 12 monsters!
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 5, 2013 15:23:07 GMT
From TUFFF... What? There's a skunk with skill 12 in my own backyard! I can't get out... Speak in extremes, it will save you time.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 5, 2013 15:34:50 GMT
From TUFFF... So I recently played Crimson Tide for the first time, following the rules to the letter, and - ........what? Eh? How the heck am I expected to write a fair review of a gamebook when I'm killed on the second reference I turn to? What the hell? How is that mudworm a more dangerous foe than Zagor!?!?!?!? Definitely the biggest WTF moment in FF I can remember. OK, rant over, I think we've all been through this before. So I tried again.....and again......and again. Kept on getting killed before I saw the king. Eventually did it on about my 8th go, took me a while to figure out what was the importance of the words I was kept being told to write down. Only got it when I stumbled across getting 'offers', 'turn' and 'to', otherwise it was just a bunch of nouns that seemed irrelevant. After several attempts I got the correct message, then had to play again to get the sword, and the essential maguffin, saw the king etc and then....... ........oh. that's it. I've won. Er, OK. So that's my biggest problem with the book. I felt it ended far too early. I loved the idea of stat progression as you grow older, but I'd completed it waaay before I reached 18. I was hoping there'd be more when you reached adulthood, but nope. Definitely the biggest plus of the book was the spiritual journey, definitely the most (only?) philosophical gamebook in FF (I made a comment on project aon ages ago about how it would be great if you could win a book by using something more morally uplifting like empathy or diplomacy to win a gamebook instead of just shoving a sword through someone's face; never knew Crimson Tide had done just exactly that). But even then, I felt it was inconsistent; some fights didn't make any sense, and I still don't really know how I got that effing bowl. All in all, I can't rate this book any higher than 5 out of ten: great low-key and realistic plot, very moral, and an ingenious and original hidden message, but I felt it shouldn't have taken the whole book to discover it. My later attempts at completing the book were driven by sheer bloody minded attrition more than enjoyment. Still, never mind Zagor, the night dragon or vampires, if the next FF gamebook is Attack of the Mudworm - I ain't playing it.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 5, 2013 15:35:47 GMT
From TUFFF... The editor got confused about the rules for this one, and doubled the Mudworm's Skill. The author was not overly happy about that. Still, the correct route through the book avoids the Mudworm altogether, so its ridiculous stats are technically irrelevant from a gameplay perspective. Something of a headache for the Titanographers, though.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 5, 2013 15:36:42 GMT
From TUFFF... But why did Gascoigne only double the Mudworm's skill? Why not the messenger of death too? And there are many enemies in other FF books that have skill 6 too, so why change this only?
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 5, 2013 15:37:28 GMT
From TUFFF... See my own theory as regards that a few posts up.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 5, 2013 15:39:59 GMT
From TUFFF... This book is immensely cool. When we tried it the first time on a long car journey, we could not believe how ridiculous it seemed to get killed so many times. I was determined to figure out the solution without spoilers but I'll admit it I would have never have done it. But it's brilliant. When I finally realised how you do it there was an unbelievable torrent of swearing but also admiration for the adventure as a whole. There's one too many red flags ("Would you like to learn magic my apprentice?" "Cool, what does it do?" "Why obviously it kills you at the end!") but hey. Bring it on. But I still don't get the story! Why is the bad guy you? Seriously, wtf? I accept that Maior might be cross with you for being too vengeful but it still doesn't really explain his reaction. I just don't get it? Is it like a Japanese horror movie where the villain was your own hatred and not actually real? Does the enemy exist only in your mind? Seriously.... WTF!!?
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 5, 2013 15:41:59 GMT
From TUFFF... Is it like a Japanese horror movie where the villain was your own hatred and not actually real? Does the enemy exist only in your mind? Seriously.... WTF!!? Paul Mason himself explained it 8 or 9 posts back: The crimson tide, which in the book is used to refer to the madness of a desire for vengeance, is the real enemy. Your real victory in the book is to conquer that desire. Adventure Gameblog: more gamebook playthroughs than you can shake a Y-shaped stick at. FF every Wednesday.
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Post by a moderator on May 24, 2014 12:20:27 GMT
One of my shorter playthroughs from TUFFF:
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Jul 23, 2015 16:00:45 GMT
A very good book. Not fantastic however. For example, a thousand miles from Crypt of the Sorcerer, House of Hell, and Howl of the Werewolf.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Dec 16, 2016 20:23:27 GMT
I wrote this up ages ago but it seems I never posted it. Some spoilers, natch. _________________________________________________ I basically dislike this book, which I simply hit a brick wall with in my teenage years – and yet I have quite mixed feelings because in some ways it’s impressive. It's obviously a clever idea to have a sort of hidden spiritual quest running through the thing, and the idea of starting as a developing child is very promising. If I wanted to make the argument that gamebooks could be sophisticated things and carry high concepts, TCT would be a better example than most. But I can't think it's a good thing if only a small minority of people who buy a book (aimed at children/teenagers) ever finish it. I recall anson mentioned on TUFFF that FF got him over his 'reluctant reader' phase. He might be illiterate now if his first book had been TCT. People on forums like this one are maybe more likely to be the sort of obsessive masochists required. Perhaps I'm just bitter about it because I failed and had to Google my way to sunil060902's walkthrough on TUFFF. Otherwise I probably wouldn't be here. At one point, noticing references to the author's previous book BVP, I actually started wondering if you had to have read that book too to '...know of another option.' Having read Moonrunner shortly before and being familiar with being asked to recall odd looking codewords (mostly ordinary words spelt backwards) there's no way it would have occurred to me to write down the words and worry about the order (far less the answer to the scholar's riddle, even if I'd got it right). In any case, I think I usually tried to learn from Flying Turtle in the monastery, so at best I'd have ended up with "When king offers wood, turn" which is a disturbing message. Or more likely, on my muddled adventure sheet, "When king offers wood, never turn" or "When king offers wood, turn green". Those should be impossible, but I believe the tantalising acid-trip promise of "When king offers spider-monk..." is possible. Anyway, some comments on a few random things: 1) It's been suggested by the author that some YAEH paragraphs shouldn't be seen as failures. Becoming a basket-weaver or a monk is not a bad result. (Champskees even wrote walkthroughs for them.) It's tempting to be facetious and wonder if the book was drafted not for 'Fighting Fantasy' but the less popular 'Accepting Banality' series, but I sort of get it up to a point. Clearing your mind of your blind hatred for your father's killer and doing something more constructive is a sort of win. However, leaving aside the fact that mercenaries are still laying the country to waste, (that's maybe not your responsibility after all) you're also giving up on your mum being rescued from slavery. That really does seem like a failure of character, whether cowardice or coldness. I mean I've had my ups and down with my mum, but I've always decided not to sell her into slavery. And this would be much worse because you don't even get the cash for her. 2) I've seen here and elsewhere that many people don't really understand the task with the bowl. (Quite possibly this was discussed in the missing posts, but they're gone.) My best understanding is... You are told that the artefact is something highly valued. Heading into the mini-quest, you discover that you are actually inside your own mind. Taking the bowl with care and reverence results in it consuming you with its great heat. You must simply grab it. If you are on a quest for Dry Jade (ie the right path), he smashes it (which is pretty rude), whereas Clown Face 'places it reverentially on a plinth'. So the whole thing is simply a microcosm of your path through the book: the bowl is your goal of slaying your father's killer. Treat it as beyond question and its heat will destroy you. Remember that it's your choice and it is no longer a threat. The abbots represent those choices once more. It's also worth noting that if you injure the white-faced dude with your wood-stamping prowess (as taught to you by Flying Turtle - who was presumably named after an extremely controversial Hale & Pace sketch), his stats increase, representing the fact that your apparent little victory is actually making your path to true success harder (or in fact impossible). (Of course I am just assuming that these stats were deliberate rather than mistakenly written in the wrong way round, which is what I assumed as a teenager. I 'corrected' them in pencil. But that would never happen in an FF book, right?) I can't say I'm entirely sure why taking the sword still sheathed means that you deserve to be crushed by an enormous hand. Because the scabbard has jewels on it? Not for the first time, that seems harsh. Or perhaps the idea is that failing to draw the sword represents a reluctance to take action. You must be bold, even if you're also prepared to change the purpose of your quest. Obviously the handing an item to your father is a reminder that the strength of your hatred is drawing on the strength of the more positive emotion of your love (and grief) for him. 3) Attacking non-aggressive elderly men with a sorcerous air has always been a mistake in FF and far beyond. Master Yao is, however, the only one who casually napalms your face. 4) I'm with fallingmast on the development of teenage stats: a good idea but imperfectly done. You naturally want to enjoy the process of converting your dumb kid into a warrior, but that's not really what happens on the winning path. Your guy is still pretty weedy and clumsy by the end. Of course the point may again be that you shouldn't be concentrating on that as the only stat which matters is your Ferocity (which you don't realise at the beginning is a 'bad' stat). But if so, I want a better fun/moralising ratio from a book with an angry dagger logo and two inexplicable sharkdudes on the front. This is maybe a matter of taste. 5) WRT the infamous mudworm. Paul Mason notes the implausibility of having worms regularly popping up in the paddies with the fighting prowess of a T-Rex, dragon or demon. But what's worse is that your character is quite specifically mentioned as having killed one in the Background, and that this was the moment the other kids started taking you seriously. I bet they did! A mudworm in action Clearly a kid that may have Skill 1 (in which case they would automatically fail a normal Test of Skill) armed with a twig would not beat one of these creatures. Perhaps they might manage a mudworm with bad flu or suicidal tendencies. More likely YOU managed to kick yourself in the face whilst attempting to climb a tree, and simply fell on it.
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Post by philsadler on Dec 17, 2016 0:44:41 GMT
Bloody funny! Makes me want to actually play the book instead of just reading about it.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Aug 18, 2020 14:10:38 GMT
If Paul Mason is still around, I'd be interested to know whether the counter-intuitive stats when you're seeking the clay bowl in your mind are indeed deliberate. That is: a crippling stamping kick on your opponent's leg using Flying Turtle's excellent wood-stomping skills appears to increase the white-faced monk's Skill and Stamina relative to gently sweeping aside their kick. Was that an expression of the theme of the book (hurrying to learn martial arts impedes your real quest) or just a paragraph switcheroo blunder from Puffin?
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Aug 18, 2020 16:19:53 GMT
If paul mason is still around, in my opinion, he should remake this book. The idea was very good, but the book was awfull.
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Post by Wilf on Aug 18, 2020 21:57:35 GMT
I'd drop the Mudworm's Skill to 6, and the White Faced Monk's and Death's Messenger's Skills to 4. I'd then change how you determine your Skill - perhaps 1d6+6 then divide by two, rounding down.
And I'd give it new cover art, 'cos I just don't get the relevance of the cover it got.
And that's literally everything I'd change about The Crimson Tide. The actual words are perfect.
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