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Post by nathanh on Feb 4, 2023 12:40:48 GMT
I was idly leafing through Legend of Zagor the other day and started wondering "could Sir Davian win the book". This then made me think of a wider question: how many villains are there where another enemy in the book could (according to the rules, not lore speculation) defeat them with more than 50% chance? The rules: - Both boss and challenger must have SKILL and STAMINA, otherwise it is an automatic victory to the boss (as a consequence, bosses you can't fight always win this challenge).
- The rules on the boss's reference and the challenger's reference are both in play. The rules apply even if they don't make narrative sense.
- The fight is to the death, first to 0 STAMINA loses.
- Both boss and challenger are assumed to have no items, codewords etc. except anything required to actually fight (e.g. they always count as having magical weapons).
- Rules that send you to a different reference are not in play except special attacks whose consequences are on other references.
- If other stats are relevant, both boss and challenger are assumed to have 0 in that stat.
An example of a boss that loses this challenge is the DIRE SPECTRE from Island of the Undead, who is stomped on by an EARTH ELEMENTAL (since the elemental doesn't need Ethereal Oil to be allowed to fight in this challenge). Some interesting cases: - The ZAGOR-DEMON's lack of a formal Magic score leaves it vulnerable to the instant kill attack of the STONE COLOSSUS, but the skill difference and the massive damage output of the ZAGOR-DEMON still allow it to prevail more often than not.
- Poor LORD MORTIS isn't even the top dog in the Mortis family, with LADY LOTMORA's skill drain being dominant even against the version of Mortis that has effectively 40 STAMINA.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679 
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Feb 4, 2023 12:53:57 GMT
Very interesting post here, I like how creative it is.
IIRC Sir Davian was one of the best fighters in his order along with Sir Bethel but he was afflicted with Dragonfear which means that although he might be able to defeat Zagor on his own he would never have made it past the War Dragon (he hates Dragons; he's scared to death of them.)
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Post by CharlesX on Feb 4, 2023 13:20:04 GMT
Point of interest\pedants corner: I think you might mean another character\NPC, as Sir Davian is arguably a very human ally rather than an opponent\enemy. The Chaos Guard in Return To Firetop Mountain has high stats as I recall and could be a traitor and attack Zagor, only as I recall you have to have some Livingstone shopping list dragons teeth to fight him - perhaps Skull-biter's sword is magical as well? I think Yaztromo is more than powerful enough to take out most of the foes he helps you with, although he is never given statstics and so would be out. In Deathtrap Dungeon or Trial Of Champions your opponents seem to have higher Skill, if Stamina that tends to be the same or below yours (Ninja, Throm) although you could argue that is because they have been weakened from the Trial, as Throm is by the snakes bite. Most of the shopkeepers in Ian Livingstone's adventurers seem more than capable of defending themselves  even if they often aren't given stats or seem to be given mediocre stats. I can hypothesize some of the behemoth-level creatures in Eye Of The Dragon making mincemeat of the anticlimactic foe at the end, while finding the other enemies in the caves easy - the Dragon being the best example. Perhaps the Dragon could do a pact with Sharcle like the Sea Dragon in Demons Of The Deep, although Sharcle is so underwhelming the Sea Dragon might as well flame-breath him before adding the 335K gold  worth of treasure to its pile.
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Post by tyrion on Feb 4, 2023 15:13:53 GMT
The giant sandworm in temple of terror could beat Malbordus (only just). Plus it has a giant sandworm's tooth, so it'd be able to get past Leesha.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Feb 4, 2023 18:40:30 GMT
If the brass ring in Scorpion Swamp turned out to have a hidden demon-whispering function, you could turn the one Grimslade summons on him (Spectral Stalkers-style!) and I wouldn't fancy his chances, even with a magic sword.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Feb 4, 2023 19:26:38 GMT
The Kraken would beat Captain Bloodaxe despite the Skill deficit owing largely to its huge Stamina score. Plenty of encounters in the Sorcery series can beat the Archmage provided he requires the same number of Attack Rounds to fully transform into his Netherworld Demon form.
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Post by nathanh on Feb 4, 2023 23:48:54 GMT
Lord Carnuss would fall victim to numerous adversaries in the Trial of Champions.
I have a feeling that, ignoring the "you can't really kill him" power, there will be some superior enemies in Legend of the Shadow Warriors, probably including some of the Shadow Warriors, but I haven't checked them yet.
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Post by vastariner on Feb 5, 2023 0:00:37 GMT
The interesting one is the Demon in Scorpion Swamp, which is way stronger than Grimslade, but Grimslade obviously has it under some sort of hex.
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Post by terrysalt on Feb 5, 2023 3:12:26 GMT
Even though Cyrus is 9/12 and the Zark is only 5/7, the Zark's disintegrator puts him in with a decent chance depending on who fires first. Assuming the Zark is standing in for the player and so gets the first shot, he gets at least two chances to score the instant win.
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Post by Gabe Fandango on Feb 5, 2023 5:03:54 GMT
- Both boss and challenger are assumed to have no items, codewords etc. except anything required to actually fight (e.g. they always count as having magical weapons).
Does the Titanium Cyborg has his suit on? When it's deactivated he can still fight, but only at 9/10 instead of 18/20, and he'd be no match for Creature of Carnage. For Masks of Mayhem, are we considering Ifor Tynin or Morgana. Tynin falls easily to the Sabre-toothed Tiger. Even Morgana will probably lose too, since her STAMINA is only half of the beast's. In Magehunter, does Mencius use his own body, or the PC's borrowed body? Also, in the book, he definitely beats the Genie of the Ring in a magical duel, but in a physical combat rolling for Attack Strengths, he's going to get slaughtered. It's probably true for a lot of other enemies in that book, too since his body is really fragile without magic. Is it Naas or Shanzikuul who is the boss in Master of Chaos? In Talisman of Death, the dragon has high stats, but in order to fight him at all you need the Spear that can kill him in 4 blows. Does that spear count as something "required to actually fight"? If it does then Hawkana has him beat. If not, then the dragon is slightly stronger. |
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Post by terrysalt on Feb 5, 2023 8:35:52 GMT
In Talisman of Death, the dragon has high stats, but in order to fight him at all you need the Spear that can kill him in 4 blows. Does that spear count as something "required to actually fight"? If it does then Hawkana has him beat. If not, then the dragon is slightly stronger. I don't think the spear counts otherwise everything in House of Hell would get 6 extra skill points against the hell demon. |
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Post by CharlesX on Feb 5, 2023 9:36:26 GMT
In Talisman of Death, the dragon has high stats, but in order to fight him at all you need the Spear that can kill him in 4 blows. Does that spear count as something "required to actually fight"? If it does then Hawkana has him beat. If not, then the dragon is slightly stronger. I don't think the spear counts otherwise everything in House of Hell would get 6 extra skill points against the hell demon. Why shouldn't they though? My understanding is the protaganist in House Of Hell is a very ordinary bloke, without training let alone 'great man\nobility' status that is quite a common fantasy trope. If we're allowing the +6 Skill bonus to go over Initial then that is down to Steve for making the Sacred Sword of Tsui look like a wooden one. Presumably it being so large is down to it being seriously blessed against demons, a kind of Kryptonite for them; I'm not very sure but I think you don't get the +6 Skill bonus if you choose instead to go for the human Earl Of Drumer. |
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Post by paperexplorer on Feb 5, 2023 9:49:42 GMT
Sharcle, Eye of the Dragon as mentioned above would lose the most of any final villain.
I seem to remember the last Prefecta in Sky Lord being rather underwhelming, but he had just been through a major fight and probably not full stats when encountered
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Post by paperexplorer on Feb 5, 2023 9:58:34 GMT
Also, can we subject Orghuz to 1 strike combat?
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,462
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Feb 5, 2023 10:03:58 GMT
In Talisman of Death, the dragon has high stats, but in order to fight him at all you need the Spear that can kill him in 4 blows. Does that spear count as something "required to actually fight"? I don’t think the spear is actually needed, is it? Just the shield made from his scales. |
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Post by nathanh on Feb 5, 2023 10:15:15 GMT
For cases where there is a post-boss battle, I'm interpreting the main villain of the story being the villain in question (Morgana, Shanzikuul, Night Dragon, etc... whether Master of Fire or Dire Spectre is the villain of Island of the Undead is moot since the Earth Elemental is so much stronger). Whether the Prefectas or L'Bastin is the villain for Sky Lord is a matter of interpretation.
In a case where you need a specific weapon to fight an enemy, and the text of the enemy's reference also states that the weapon gives an unusual bonus, I was imagining that the bonus wouldn't apply (I'm imagining less "the challenger/villain has the required item" but rather "the challenger/villain has an inherent means of harming their foe, ignoring the text"), but I can see that going both ways.
Where there are multiple references with villain or challenger stats, the most effective reference can be used. I doubt there are cases where e.g. 2 incarnations of a villain exist, incarnation 1 can be beaten by enemy X but not enemy Y, and incarnation 2 can be beaten by enemy Y but not enemy X; that would be a very interesting edge case that would delight me.
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Post by nathanh on Feb 5, 2023 10:31:17 GMT
Even though Cyrus is 9/12 and the Zark is only 5/7, the Zark's disintegrator puts him in with a decent chance depending on who fires first. Assuming the Zark is standing in for the player and so gets the first shot, he gets at least two chances to score the instant win. This is an excellent match-up! If the Zark shoots first, the Zark wins about 60% of the time. If Cyrus shoots first, Cyrus wins about 55% of the time. |
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Post by paperexplorer on Feb 5, 2023 11:13:21 GMT
Portal of Evil
Not exactly an npc, but an ankylosaurus v Horfak match up would be good. Horfak v Triceratops definitely in favour of the dino though
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Post by CharlesX on Feb 5, 2023 11:15:56 GMT
Portal of Evil Not exactly an npc, but an ankylosaurus v Horfak match up would be good. Horfak v Triceratops definitely in favour of the dino though Gloten surely (counting friendly npcs ofc)? Gloten wouldn't be a bad loser if he lost to Horfak, being dead  . |
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Feb 5, 2023 11:31:51 GMT
Portal of Evil Not exactly an npc, but an ankylosaurus v Horfak match up would be good. Horfak v Triceratops definitely in favour of the dino though They stand little chance of winning unless they somehow are able to use a mirror against Horfak. |
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Post by vastariner on Feb 5, 2023 13:30:25 GMT
Even though Cyrus is 9/12 and the Zark is only 5/7, the Zark's disintegrator puts him in with a decent chance depending on who fires first. Assuming the Zark is standing in for the player and so gets the first shot, he gets at least two chances to score the instant win. This is an excellent match-up! If the Zark shoots first, the Zark wins about 60% of the time. If Cyrus shoots first, Cyrus wins about 55% of the time. But remember Cyrus has an ability to turn certain devices against you - perhaps he invented the disintegrator as well. |
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Post by Gabe Fandango on Feb 5, 2023 15:59:33 GMT
In Talisman of Death, the dragon has high stats, but in order to fight him at all you need the Spear that can kill him in 4 blows. Does that spear count as something "required to actually fight"? I don’t think the spear is actually needed, is it? Just the shield made from his scales. Ok, you're right about this one. So the dragon is still the strongest in the book. |
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Post by Gabe Fandango on Feb 5, 2023 16:12:00 GMT
Where there are multiple references with villain or challenger stats, the most effective reference can be used. I doubt there are cases where e.g. 2 incarnations of a villain exist, incarnation 1 can be beaten by enemy X but not enemy Y, and incarnation 2 can be beaten by enemy Y but not enemy X; that would be a very interesting edge case that would delight me. Magehunter is a tricky case because 1 version of Mencius uses the PC's stats, which can vary from anything between 10/24 to 5/14 (he takes a -2 penalty from lack of weapon). Although they'd all lose to the 12/20 Genie. |
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Post by Gabe Fandango on Feb 5, 2023 16:24:35 GMT
The transformed Mutant Beast Lord in Return to Firetop Mountain should beat Zagor.
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Post by nathanh on Feb 5, 2023 19:01:06 GMT
The transformed Mutant Beast Lord in Return to Firetop Mountain should beat Zagor. Poor Zagor also loses to the Chaos Slime Beast. I think this is the only book where Zagor loses the contest. The Mutant Beast Lord is completely dominant though, 99% win chance. |
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Post by nathanh on Feb 5, 2023 19:08:09 GMT
I think there are a number of enemies that beat STURM in Stormslayer (depending on how you rule his damage), but he is definitely thrashed by the EARTH ELEMENTAL.
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Post by paperexplorer on Feb 6, 2023 1:37:03 GMT
Portal of Evil Not exactly an npc, but an ankylosaurus v Horfak match up would be good. Horfak v Triceratops definitely in favour of the dino though They stand little chance of winning unless they somehow are able to use a mirror against Horfak. It could happen!  |
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Post by Wizard Slayer on Feb 20, 2023 17:15:27 GMT
Having just completed it, I put forward Feior from Black Vein Prophecy, who would lose out to the Sturramak and likely to his own officer as well.
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Post by nathanh on Feb 25, 2023 8:45:56 GMT
Good one; I'd forgotten he even had a combat reference. The POOL BEAST is also superior to him.
Some of the SHADOW WARRIORS might beat Voivod, but I was spared trying to interpret some of their special rules against him by finding the ridiculous monster with 6 attacks each round, which massacres everything else in the Legend of the Shadow Warriors.
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Post by philsadler on Feb 25, 2023 11:38:45 GMT
Good one; I'd forgotten he even had a combat reference. The POOL BEAST is also superior to him. Some of the SHADOW WARRIORS might beat Voivod, but I was spared trying to interpret some of their special rules against him by finding the ridiculous monster with 6 attacks each round, which massacres everything else in the Legend of the Shadow Warriors.
What is the name of the '6 attacks' monster?
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even if they often aren't given stats or seem to be given mediocre stats. I can hypothesize some of the behemoth-level creatures in Eye Of The Dragon making mincemeat of the anticlimactic foe at the end, while finding the other enemies in the caves easy - the Dragon being the best example. Perhaps the Dragon could do a pact with Sharcle like the Sea Dragon in Demons Of The Deep, although Sharcle is so underwhelming the Sea Dragon might as well flame-breath him before adding the 335K gold 
worth of treasure to its pile. 
.
