sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 2, 2023 14:11:12 GMT
Hehe. I'd love to see the likes of Lord Azzur and Zanbar Bone go up against giant robots.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 1, 2023 20:57:10 GMT
I completely agree about Bloodbones. The hiatus gave JG time to reflect, take feedback on board and work on his craft, which lead to him probably tweaking a few numbers and adding a few bonuses. He knew exactly how to balance a book by Howl of the Werewolf which also carried over into Stormslayer and Night of the Necromancer. As far as FF goes, yeah. I'll be up-front I haven't read many 2010s and 2020s dice-based gamebooks by Jon Green, but his Alice in Wonderland and Oz gamebooks are unbalanced in gameplay terms as well as certain puzzles and inconsistencies. Elaborating, I reckon his Curioser and Curioser and Over the Rainbow were too sadistic in terms of being much more disadvantageous than beneficial. Alice is actually one of the most balanced gamebooks when it comes to character creation. Curiouser is a disadvantage but there's nothing stopping you from not using it. The chess puzzle is the only major flaw that I can see, but gameplay and combats are all winnable with almost no matter what stats you choose to begin with.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 1, 2023 15:39:46 GMT
This game has been quiet long enough so I thought I'd get it going again if anyone is interested. Eligible books are:
The 59 Fighting Fantasy gamebooks first published by Puffin. The 4 gamebooks in Steve Jackson's Sorcery! series. The 6 Fighting Fantasy gamebooks first published by Wizard Books. The 6 new Fighting Fantasy gamebooks first published by Scholastic.
A rule I will include is that if I deem any of your answers unacceptable, I will inform you through PM. However, I will not state if any of your answers are incorrect until after the results are given.
1. Name a Fighting Fantasy gamebook that mentions the word ‘BASILISK’ anywhere in the adventure. Please provide the name of the gamebook and reference number.
2. Name a Potion you can acquire in a Fighting Fantasy gamebook that does not ever restore any of your attributes when used during the adventure.
3. In Robot Commando, identify one of the cities you can visit (it will be listed as 'City of …').
4. Identify a place or location on any map that contains a number anywhere in its name. (For example, the name 'Wolfherten' would contain the number 'ten'.) Please provide the name of the gamebook and reference number (if applicable).
5. Identify a place or location on any map that contains a colour anywhere in its name. Please provide the name of the gamebook and reference number (if applicable).
6. Name an opponent you can fight in a Fighting Fantasy gamebook with both a Skill and Stamina score of exactly 10.
7. Identify an interior illustration that includes a person or creature noticeably struck by 2 or more arrows (or similar projectiles). Please provide the name of the gamebook and reference number.
8. Name a Fighting Fantasy gamebook illustrated by Bob Harvey or Tony Hough.
9. In Stormslayer, identify one of the ways in which you can either board or escape Balthazar Sturm’s Weather Machine.
10. Name an opponent you can fight in a Fighting Fantasy gamebook with the word 'DEATH' in its name. Please provide the name of the gamebook and reference number.
I don’t remember all the questions from previous rounds so I might have accidentally duplicated a couple.
Please submit your answers by PM no later than Monday 21st August. Thank you.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Aug 1, 2023 15:13:13 GMT
TBH I forgot what the true path was here (it's been too long), so if fighting the Mudworm prevents you from reaching the best ending anyway, then yes, I suppose it's still a drag but is not as bad. Fighting the Mudworm is not critical to reaching the best ending fortunately.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jul 31, 2023 16:50:44 GMT
Dead of Night ranked this 'low' is unexpected.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jul 30, 2023 19:44:08 GMT
For the moment, it's extremely similar to FF rules apart from the separation of Strength and Dexterity based weapons but it is essentially the same. It's more probable that your attribute scores will be higher than those using FF rules but hard to gauge the effectiveness without context of the opponents you might face, how often you may be able to heal, how much damage the weapons do, etc.
If the most important thing is to end up with higher scores than FF then, yes, your scores will likely be higher. Does it work? Yes, but dependent on how well it is incorporated into the actual gamebook itself, which should be the more important factor.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jul 26, 2023 15:43:46 GMT
Or send me a message if you want an unofficial revised version. or course sylas can decipher every mystery, his character has arcane law. anyway, is the unofficial version still open? The link seems to work for some and not for others so best to send me a PM so that I can email it to you.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jul 26, 2023 15:35:48 GMT
40 - Black Vein ProphecyI know that for some this one represents the very best that Fighting Fantasy has to offer, and I can certainly see why - it sets an extremely high bar for storytelling with its complex tale of politics, war and fate that is delivered with thoughtful restraint. It is possibly the very thing that makes others admire it so much that I had some difficulty with, and that's the way it reveals its story. Opening as a mystery in which your character literally knows nothing as they have just awoken in a mausoleum, it sometimes feels so determined to keep its cards close to its chest and not reveal its secrets too early that I found it quite alienating in places and the tone distant and cold. It does however neatly sidestep expectations in the final act. Having driven a bus through your usual Fighting Fantasy conventions in several places previously (no Background, no initial stats generation, the requirement to fail an attribute roll), it does so again right at the end where, upon defeating the main villain and you would usually get your 'turn to 400' instruction, it instead launches you into an extended (and interactive) childhood flashback sequence. More than just a gamebook version of a film's post-credits scene, it's where the last few pieces of the puzzle are finally slotted into place. It's unexpected, beautifully written, audacious and serves as the perfect ending for an unusual and original book. I do love this one though I completely understand why others do not. Admittedly, when I first had a go at it, I hated it. The setting was just too outlandish to me at the time when all I wanted was dungeon crawls, city walks and epic outdoor battles. I didn't get back to playing BVP until quite a few years later during my complete runs of each book in the series. And I'm glad I did because the second time I was more grown up, more open to new ideas, and more determined to finish adventures. It's about there that I started realising that BVP was not a book that favours a single read through but becomes more rewarding with each subsequent read as you go further into the mystery and the overarching plot begins to unravel in a wonderful way. I must've gone through around 7 failed attempts before I achieved victory but the multicoloured scales thing was not something I ever found from playing legitimately which kind of ruined my progress during the later stages. I had to sift through each paragraph to find it as this was before the times of having the internet to solve everything. Once discovered, the whole adventure could be played through to the end and what a creative, fantastically imaginative finale I got! Black Vein Prophecy is beautifully written with many paths adding to the worldbuilding even if they are not on the 'true path'. As clever as the story is woven together, you do really have to search for its cleverness. While that is ultimately extremely rewarding, it's also not something that can be expected from everyone. When I read it nowadays, I find it more enjoyable treating it as a diceless adventure due to that one roll I have to fail, and I don't favour cheating, which is a bit of a shame. However, that is only a slight flaw for one of the best told tales in the series and one which deservedly ranks quite high up on my list.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jul 25, 2023 15:52:07 GMT
I do agree that the artwork in Beneath Nightmare Castle is a bit weak in places. The entries in Beyond the Pit have way better depictions of the book's creatures fortunately.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jul 23, 2023 14:37:12 GMT
he could have thought of a more creative way to introduce the key plot point of the infliction of the Death Spell than the slightly lazy reading a bit of paper nailed to a door. I quite like that actually, something so significant relying on a simple twist of fate and how you unwittingly bring Redswift down with you. and Stubb is saved by his 'Don't know, don't care. I just wanna go home' attitude.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jul 22, 2023 10:03:18 GMT
51 - Midnight RogueNot for the first time, I feel my critical faculties are deficient in allowing me to provide an adequate justification for the ranking of this one. Similarly to Battleblade Warrior, there's nothing especially wrong with Midnight Rogue, but then there's nothing that pops out as being particularly outstanding either. It's solidly middle-of-the-road stuff. What's made me rank this several places above Battleblade is the originality of some of the ideas on offer here. Its premise is pretty irresistible - a return to Blacksand is always welcome, and the opportunity to play as a miscreant makes for a refreshing change of pace from your usual altruistically-minded hero. There's an attempt to include an encumbrance rule, which makes sense in the context of the book - as a thief you have to remain nimble and light on your feet so you can't be weighed down by a backpack full of goblin's knucklebones, mouldy cheese or whatever other crap you happen to have come across. There's a nicely considered Special Skills system, although it can be rendered a bit moot as Davis generously includes a number of items that you can find that in effect allow you to claim a missing skill, so depending on your initial selection of skills and the route you take through the book, I believe it's possible for your character to accumulate the complete set of Special Skills, making you some kind of omnithief. A polymath of roguery. An ubermensch of nicking stuff. The main problem comes in the second half of the book, which moves away from the urban environment and into a dungeon setting. The end twist concerning the true nature of the place is quite a neat one, but the dungeon itself in execution is unfortunately fairly bland. This has reminded me that after playing Midnight Rogue for last year's Fortieth Frenzy I was going to post about how annoying I found some of its idiosyncracies in spite of its plus-points. Perhaps I'll keep that for its own thread as intended, but since it's specifically mentioned I'd say that the encumbrance rule is (always) a mistake.
In a lot of gamebook adventures it's hard not to notice that your character is scrambling over walls or up trees, heroically leaping across chasms and sprinting zig-zags towards goblin archers despite being weighed down by enough food for 20 meals, a stone hammer and a life-size solid gold warthog. A limit on the number of items might seem to make things more realistic. But a simple rule is not realistic: as here, where 7 provisions weigh/take up space the same as 1, whilst having a key, whistle, letter and map in addition to a provision and a potion means that it's impossible to pick up a second key without dumping something. I have more items than that in my pockets right now – what's the point of being a thief if you can't carry more than that? A more complex rule requires more effort to apply and wouldn't get away from the basic fact that junking items purely because of an item limit adds nothing to the excitement or atmosphere.
Lone Wolf handles this better separating Backpack items from weapons and gold. Negligible items are listed under Special items so you wouldn't have to count keys and passes. It's more organized but at the same time, it's just extra bookkeeping as opposed to the usual record ALL possessions in 1 box. One could argue either way if that's a good thing so it comes down to a matter of preference.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jul 21, 2023 12:12:53 GMT
Change the Intro and Outro. Remove the Zombie tally requirement. Change the combat system back to simple SKILL, STAMINA, LUCK rules but adjusted for the various weapons.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jul 18, 2023 21:19:33 GMT
I also think Battleblade Warrior is only okay at best. The main problem is that despite having some great ideas, they just aren't strung together that well and the majority of the things you do lead to nothing but the final location. It has neat concepts but not executed in a meaningful way.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jul 18, 2023 16:20:37 GMT
Nice to see it's looking more affordable now. Even if it's a very limited game, it'd still be a good collector's item. Let's hope when it goes live, it doesn't have such a ridiculous target goal anymore.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jul 15, 2023 12:30:45 GMT
The war between Dire and Marr is the only interesting part. The heroes aren't likable and feels a lot like when they include Humans into the Transformers story. Probably worth a read just for the Marr and Dire parts and the romp through Firetop Mountain isn't too bad either. But don't expect anything specal.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jul 12, 2023 21:51:27 GMT
As the game is struggling to reach its funding goal, the designers have decided to cancel the Kickstarter campaign but plan to do a relaunch later on Gamefound together with lowered prices and generally taking on board feedback from the community. While it sucks to do a reset, I think this is a good decision and one that was absolutely necessary for success.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jul 12, 2023 14:33:42 GMT
While Legend of Zagor has connections with Titan, it is set on a different world, Amarillia. Ah yes. Missed one.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jul 11, 2023 20:47:46 GMT
All except:
Starship Traveller House of Hell Talisman of Death Space Assassin Freeway Fighter The Rings of Kether Appointment with F.E.A.R Rebel Planet Robot Commando Star Strider Sky Lord Blood of the Zombies
63 out of 75 gamebooks are set on Titan (includes Sorcery!)
Spectral Stalkers might be a bit of a grey area since the majority of the adventure is not set on Titan so up to you to decide if it counts.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jul 10, 2023 22:11:35 GMT
Imagine the movie ending to Crypt of the Sorcerer be like:
Upon slaying Razaak, the hero flees the collapsing crypt. With rubble and stone falling around him/her the screen fades to black. Back outside, his waiting friends feel the shock of the crypt's destruction as the ground heaves and sinks into the earth. They don't know if their friend survived or not. Just then, they hear the scraping of gravel as a skeletal hand bursts out from the ground. They ready their weapons to fight the rising dead but Yaztromo stops them realizing that this IS their friend and the adventure is not yet over...
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jul 1, 2023 18:35:38 GMT
For those who aren't aware, the Fighting Fantasy Adventures Kickstarter campaign is on now. Playthrough videos on YouTube look good and the team who designed the game are quite responsive so any comments you have can be left on their KS page.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jun 30, 2023 22:52:41 GMT
Looks like a good simple game but I'm not getting the FF theme.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jun 23, 2023 15:08:52 GMT
Even more confusing, on ref 316 leading on to ref 81, you are given the option to drink a Potion of Giant Strength - those very same potions that you thought would increase your SKILL by 2 for one combat and increase damage dealt by 1. Well now you get +6 STAMINA and add 2 to your Attack Strength for the oncoming battle. I don't know the reason for the Stamina boost (maybe extra adrenaline since you're about to fight an Earth Elemental), but the +2 Attack Strength presented here is the biggest reason why I believe it should apply to ALL potions of Giant Strength. Otherwise, having the potion at all would be pointless, and considering the replayability and versatility of the rest of the book I would like to assume that Jon Green was not being an idiot when he wrote it that way. This is interesting and perhaps shows Jonathan is willing to create ad hoc rules when an encounter is specifically really tough. Is the encounter you are referring to the Elemental on the ground or the Elemental on the airship? If I recall both of these are really tough so I think Jonathan is trying to give you a break if you have a Potion. Only the Earth Elemental in Fathomdeep Mine.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jun 22, 2023 18:30:12 GMT
Even more confusing, on ref 316 leading on to ref 81, you are given the option to drink a Potion of Giant Strength - those very same potions that you thought would increase your SKILL by 2 for one combat and increase damage dealt by 1. Well now you get +6 STAMINA and add 2 to your Attack Strength for the oncoming battle. I don't know the reason for the Stamina boost (maybe extra adrenaline since you're about to fight an Earth Elemental), but the +2 Attack Strength presented here is the biggest reason why I believe it should apply to ALL potions of Giant Strength. Otherwise, having the potion at all would be pointless, and considering the replayability and versatility of the rest of the book I would like to assume that Jon Green was not being an idiot when he wrote it that way.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jun 21, 2023 15:57:12 GMT
Regarding the idea of turning existing FFs into movies, when worrying about specific elements in them, I think we should remember that movies will always involve significant modification to the plot, the setting, the characters and everything else, including the title. Hell, I mean I just adapted an FF (admittedly unfinished) as a roleplaying adventure, and it involved significant modification. And we're talking there about very close media, and the modification being done by the original author. With a movie, the medium is very different, and those doing the modification would be very different to the original author (and probably not very interested in the original author's ideas). When I was planning out ideas for a Black Vein Prophecy movie, I did similar to what you said. The ordering of the chapters was difficult to plan though. I had part of the finale moved to the beginning but told in such a way to suggest that Bezenvial was the hero (at least through his children's eyes). There was a whole chase sequence as well with Maior fleeing from a group of Man-Horses before falling off from the crumbling battlements into the sea to be rescued by Velkos. I skipped the catapulting part.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jun 13, 2023 19:38:59 GMT
You wouldn't want the main hero to be a wordless grunt but rather someone with charisma as well as talent to carry the film. I'd say Chris Hemsworth but that might be too obvious. Maybe Jon Bernthal, Jensen Ackles or Daniel Bruhl?
Robert de Niro would make a good Yaztromo though.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jun 13, 2023 16:23:51 GMT
Crypt is a great choice for a potential movie mainly due to the fact that its linearity covers all the important/interesting encounters. A few things I would change would be: to set up a better way to discover the Crystal of Sanity instead of by accident; have Yaztromo then Symm join the protagonist pretty early on; and have Razaak being made aware of the adventurers coming to assassinate him - it's not good storytelling if the main antagonist only appears at the introduction and the finale of a movie. His presence or his deeds need to be woven into the main plot itself so that viewers don't forget who they are up against and why. I wonder how a Crypt movie could deal with the unfair-but-necessary attack on the Bonekeeper, perhaps there could be a special cut in which he attacks first like Star Wars ? You are thinking too much in gamebook terms. If a movie was made, you could go about the encounter however you wish without being restricted to gamebook choices. The simplest way could be to just buy it from him. Or he could already be dead/dying when the protagonist meets him. Slain by Razaak or something and the dying Bonekeeper can pass the ring to the hero so that revenge can be exacted later?
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jun 13, 2023 15:17:43 GMT
Surely Crypt of the Sorcerer?! It's got it all! Hills, fields, forests, tunnels, crypts, graveyards, even a hot air balloon. Dragons and giants and zombies. Skeletons! Set pieces like the destroyed miner's hut and the encounter with goblins on horseback. Stonebridge and Yaztromo! Other characters on the side of good, like Symm and Borri and the blind monk. A huge monster battle with the Gargantis. And a final adversary with a bit of backstory, plenty of evil magic and who is finally undone by his own legendary weapon! Plus being Crypt the lack of an interactive element is probably a plus. Crypt is a great choice for a potential movie mainly due to the fact that its linearity covers all the important/interesting encounters. A few things I would change would be: to set up a better way to discover the Crystal of Sanity instead of by accident; have Yaztromo then Symm join the protagonist pretty early on; and have Razaak being made aware of the adventurers coming to assassinate him - it's not good storytelling if the main antagonist only appears at the introduction and the finale of a movie. His presence or his deeds need to be woven into the main plot itself so that viewers don't forget who they are up against and why.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jun 12, 2023 16:25:13 GMT
I would enjoy any FF movie if one was produced but that's highly doubtful judging by previous attempts.
It would only work if the interactive element was removed completely. Yes, you would be left with a standard fantasy film much like many others but it would be the easiest to produce. Another aspect would be to figure out which ones might work with the protagonist working towards his own goal most of the time or which ones would work if you had a small group of characters working towards the same/similar goal.
A few years ago, I had ideas for a Black Vein Prophecy movie but they were just ideas made for fun. There wasn't much interest in it so I abandoned the idea but it did seem like one of the easier books to convert to film due to it's captivating storytelling that wasn't presented as the standard getting from scene 1 to scene 2 to scene 3 etc, making it more compelling. It instead uses a narrative that has the reader work out which series of events happened, when and why they happened, as well as how they might affect the main goal of the protagonist, which itself is a mystery until the halfway point.
Deathtrap Dungeon also has great potential but contestants would have to meet fairly regularly, even if it's not confrontational. It would be difficult to have one main protagonist but if ALL the main characters could be made the focus all at once, that would make for an interesting eventual outcome if the viewer isn't sure who, if anyone, will survive.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jun 9, 2023 15:02:27 GMT
Believing everything is fake until you experience it.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,679
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Jun 4, 2023 18:44:06 GMT
12 pages of questions and not a thing was learnt. Then why bother asking?
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