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Post by thealmightymudworm on Apr 16, 2024 13:48:05 GMT
In a Let's Play thread on rpg.net, "riddle" and "secret" got equal votes from the participants, and the moderator helpfully selected the correct answer for them. Amusingly, before either of those were suggested as answers, people proposed "illusion", "mirage", "question" and "mystery". The secret of Singing Death cannot be shared "freely", so you solve this conundrum by having someone tell you under compulsion. Does that mean you could have forced it out of the Shogun by somehow making it a point of honour that he grant you any favour, or would the magic have seen through that? Clearly it's assumed you can demonstrate knowledge of the secret to claim the sword while potentially in the presence of people who may not know it, so could the Shogun have acted it out even without the blade present, or does each wielder only get to say it once? "So, I'm not saying this is or isn't related to any sacred weaponry, just that if a horde of demons happened to assault the throne room and I had the sword, you might have seen things go down something like... *ahem* HARMONY!" *dramatic gesture towards imaginary scabbard* After all if, say, Moichi was with you and he didn't know the secret, would the sword have "disappeared from the world of men" as soon as you called out to it? The Shogun appears to think Ikiru doesn't know the secret, and that if he did, he would be able to gain the sword's power. The Dai-Oni, who knows the secret, implies that Ikiru does as well, and that only a second condition of a "noble heart" prevents him from using it - but adds a "yet", as if that could change. Ikiru himself is meditating on the sword, and if we rule out that he's trying to become noble and presumably much less of a problem, he might be thinking there is a deeper secret that, if uncovered, makes the sword fine with being used for evil, or that the enchantment could be brute-forced. Which appears most likely? The brass key isn't used, is it? 313 does say the penalty applies until you find new armour, however 105 does not. In one of the Knightmare gamebooks Granitas asks a riddle where his preferred answer is "feather" but if you answer "kite" you lose some life force but he accepts it after some sympathy from Treguard (I don't have the book with me, unfortunately). Doing that in a more teen-orientated gamebook would - might - take away from the atmosphere, although I could imagine either being fully acceptable (like outwitting the Holy Grail guard of the bridge). I remembered the reference when you mentioned it, and whilst the book is elusive I managed to access a pdf: it's in Fortress of Assassins (para 31). Most of the puzzles in Knightmare work on what might be called the basic Honesty Box mechanism: you consider the answer to a puzzle, turn to another paragraph and are asked whether your answer is something (clearly the right answer) and to turn to a paragraph accordingly. (Here if of interest:) The Honesty Box mechanic only pops up occasionally in FF. If you haven't worked out the answer it's a bit of an immersion breaker to simply have it waved at you and means that you can only be stumped on a puzzle for exactly one playthrough.
The use of 'If Numbers were Letters' mechanism as in Sword of the Samurai is usually more satisfying, but the SoS example shows that it can go wrong if the answer is ambiguous: the 'egg' puzzle works well (what else could the answer be?) but the 'riddle' one less so. The kite/feather puzzle shows one respect in which the Honesty Box system is superior to the Numbers as Letters: it's easier to include more than one right (or not-total-failure) answer. (If anyone's interested and hasn't seen it, there is a thread trying to list off the hidden number mechanisms used throughout FF.) There's another wrinkle here: when I was browsing through Fortress of Assassins, what did I find but that exact same puzzle! On paragraph 51, a woman asks you for help with her husband's riddle, beginning "What is it that is something wwhen you don't know what it is...". (It feels a bit less high stakes than when facing the Tatsu!) Perhaps it's not that surprising that the riddle riddle appears in both. I'm guessing that neither it not the egg one were created for either book. (Does anyone know their origins?) Also, it's possible, just possible, that the author of Knightmare (Dave Morris) has met Jamie Thomson and Mark Smith at some point, so they may have thrown around ideas for puzzles in different gamebook series. I remember feeling quite satisfied about working out the egg puzzle, but don't remember anything about working out or struggling with the riddle riddle. Possibly I encountered the Knightmare book first in spite of it having been published later, and it was already familiar.
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Per
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Post by Per on Apr 16, 2024 21:15:42 GMT
I can't recall precisely since it was, um, 30 years ago, but I'm sure I got the first riddle right (chances are good I already knew it), and I think I also got the right answer on the second.
Yet another question: is there a logic or precedent for connecting the name Hammurabi and epithet Lord of the Flies, or was it just a random thing in this book?
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Post by Pete Byrdie on Apr 17, 2024 12:32:50 GMT
I can't recall precisely since it was, um, 30 years ago, but I'm sure I got the first riddle right (chances are good I already knew it), and I think I also got the right answer on the second. Yet another question: is there a logic or precedent for connecting the name Hammurabi and epithet Lord of the Flies, or was it just a random thing in this book? As far as I know, there's no connection between Hammurabi, the babylonian king, and the 'Lord of the Flies' epithet, which is generally associated with Beelzebub, which it seems originally meant 'Lord of the High Places' or some such thing. It confused me when I first read Sword of the Samurai, being a rather nerdy, lonely, bookish child who was already familiar with both the king and the demon/name for Satan. However, Titan is another world with a different history. (Although it still has Atlantis.)
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Apr 17, 2024 13:01:51 GMT
I can't recall precisely since it was, um, 30 years ago, but I'm sure I got the first riddle right (chances are good I already knew it), and I think I also got the right answer on the second. Yet another question: is there a logic or precedent for connecting the name Hammurabi and epithet Lord of the Flies, or was it just a random thing in this book? As far as I know, there's no connection between Hammurabi, the babylonian king, and the 'Lord of the Flies' epithet, which is generally associated with Beelzebub, which it seems originally meant 'Lord of the High Places' or some such thing. It confused me when I first read Sword of the Samurai, being a rather nerdy, lonely, bookish child who was already familiar with both the king and the demon/name for Satan. However, Titan is another world with a different history. (Although it still has Atlantis.) Yes, I am not aware of any genuine connection either. The only connection I can make is that both are names from the Middle East in ancient and Bibilcal times.
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Post by thealmightymudworm on Apr 18, 2024 2:25:54 GMT
This may be in danger of boring people, but having pointed out the overlap between Sword of the Samurai and Knightmare: Fortress of Assassins in the 'riddle' riddle, there is also a character named Seigneur des Mouches who might make an appearance in the latter. (I'll assume everyone can either make or guess the translation!)
Unlike SoS, this is definitely in the sense that Peter Byrdie mentions of Beelzebub. There's a smell of brimstone, you can partially control him by casting salt over your left arm, a crucifix is invaluable and if you aren't careful he will drag you to your sulphurous doom.
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kieran
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Post by kieran on Apr 18, 2024 9:40:03 GMT
I assume Mark Smith and/or Jamie Thomson wanted the pun of calling a giant fly 'Lord of the Flies'. However, since he's not evil, calling him Beezelbub probably didn't make much sense so they opted for another ancient Middle Eastern name.
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Post by schlendrian on Apr 18, 2024 12:19:51 GMT
I assume Mark Smith and/or Jamie Thomson wanted the pun of calling a giant fly 'Lord of the Flies'. However, since he's not evil, calling him Beezelbub probably didn't make much sense so they opted for another ancient Middle Eastern name. They could have gone with the original Baal Sebub and probably no one would have noticed (the overlap between ancient near east scholars and ff fans probably being very slim.
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Per
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Post by Per on Apr 18, 2024 13:58:50 GMT
,However, since he's not evil, Are we assuming he's not evil just because he's got a good-looking priestess who calls people "gallant saviour"?
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Post by kieran on Apr 18, 2024 14:15:21 GMT
,However, since he's not evil, Are we assuming he's not evil just because he's got a good-looking priestess who calls people "gallant saviour"? Can you think of a better way of assessing the evilness of giant bugs?
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Per
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Post by Per on Apr 18, 2024 17:25:25 GMT
Good bug deity approached without priestess: "Misled, you have been. On the western, easier path you should be."
Bad bug deity approached without priestess: bites your head off
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IoannesKantakouzenos
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Post by IoannesKantakouzenos on Apr 29, 2024 17:33:26 GMT
One thing that didn't quite made sense to me was: if you get captured by Tsietsin's forces and lose your weapons, you lose 1 Honour point (there is that thing that, if that was your last Honor point, you have no weapons to throw yourself and commit seppuku, but let's go with the flow). If you manage to recover them, shouldn't you regain the lost Honour (because, after all, you have recovered the weapons the shogun gave you, and all that)?
A titbit: the Portuguese editions name Yoro Ginsei a "rorin", which made me for years wonder why would everyone in the world "miswrite" it as ronin - until the penny dropped.
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Post by CharlesX on Apr 29, 2024 18:02:41 GMT
One thing that didn't quite made sense to me was: if you get captured by Tsietsin's forces and lose your weapons, you lose 1 Honour point (there is that thing that, if that was your last Honor point, you have no weapons to throw yourself and commit seppuku, but let's go with the flow). If you manage to recover them, shouldn't you regain the lost Honour (because, after all, you have recovered the weapons the shogun gave you, and all that)?
A titbit: the Portuguese editions name Yoro Ginsei a "rorin", which made me for years wonder why would everyone in the world "miswrite" it as ronin - until the penny dropped.
I don't have the exact wording but I imagine the Honour loss is due to the humiliation of being captured and losing the weapons as much as that you have done so, even if the wording specifies "for losing your weapons". That would actually make more sense than some of the other inconsistencies in Sword Of The Samurai (e.g. about armour), one of which you've intelligently pointed out. One suspects that those with no Honour and no weapons would commit seppuku with the aid of a nearby river or cliff.
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