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Post by Weasel Fierce on Dec 3, 2019 2:04:08 GMT
I thought this might be a fun exercise:
If you were given the task of updating or improving Warlock of Firetop Mountain, what would you do:
Here are the ground rules:
* The update must make as few changes as possible to the structure. So completely rewriting a major portion is out of the question.
* You must change as little as possible in the core game rules of the book (so no replacing the combat system with Lone Wolf or something).
Cool?
Okay, let's hear it:
My take:
* The maze section should be written out more. Keep the structure of the maze, but add more detailed descriptions of the hall-ways so they are easier to recognize when you accidentally backtrack.
* Add a page or so about the wizard, so there's a reason to raid the dungeon other than the player character just being a greedy murderer.
* This book probably does not need 2 swigs of the potion flask, so drop that to 1.
* The dragon feels like it should have a fire breath option similar to the hell hound.
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vagsancho
Knight
Posts: 809
Favourite Gamebook Series: CRYPT OF THE SORCERER
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Post by vagsancho on Dec 3, 2019 8:12:50 GMT
In my country the number 1 book is firetop, the number 2 is forest of doom, and the number 3 is citadel. I would say that that is much more understandable. Because firetop and forest were clearly weak books and citadel was clearly the first powerfull FF book ever made.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,462
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Dec 3, 2019 12:45:00 GMT
The maze section should be written out more. Keep the structure of the maze, but add more detailed descriptions of the hall-ways so they are easier to recognize when you accidentally backtrack. The second Cretan Chronicles book had a similar maze, but the walls were decorated with friezes depicting scenes of famous Greek myths - good way of making things more engaging without actually changing the gameplay. Something similar done here would be good. Maybe friezes of Zagor's feats? Definitely. Didn't the Warlock magazine version do this? I don't mind the two swigs - gives weak characters a good chance against the Iron Cyclops. Good idea. I would suggest the following: * Hide the Dragon Fire spell better * Don't hide one of the essential keys with the Cyclops - that way it doesn't make the Zagor fight a formality and makes the cyclops optional * Have the shield work on a 5 or 6 rather than just a 6.
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Post by a moderator on Dec 3, 2019 22:02:19 GMT
Add a page or so about the wizard, so there's a reason to raid the dungeon other than the player character just being a greedy murderer. Definitely. Didn't the Warlock magazine version do this? Yes, it did. I'd add a female character somewhere. Is TWoFM the only FF book with an all-male cast?
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,462
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Dec 3, 2019 23:17:14 GMT
I'd add a female character somewhere. Is TWoFM the only FF book with an all-male cast? Maybe one of the dwarfs was female - you never can tell
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Blackheart
Squire
Formerly known as Symm. Razaak raised me from the dead.
Posts: 42
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by Blackheart on Dec 4, 2019 9:44:47 GMT
In my country the number 1 book is firetop, the number 2 is forest of doom, and the number 3 is citadel. I would say that that is much more understandable. Because firetop and forest were clearly weak books and citadel was clearly the first powerfull FF book ever made.
Egypt?
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Post by schlendrian on Dec 4, 2019 15:42:09 GMT
I strongly dislike the idea of tinkering with the backstory just to give your greed a moral overcoat. That's a bit of a "greedo shot first" situation there - as I know how the story used to be, adding a "and in addition to his riches, that guy is EEEVIL!" would just feel artificial.
The other changes sound good, especially disentangling key and cyclops eye.
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Post by schlendrian on Dec 4, 2019 16:01:04 GMT
I'd add a female character somewhere. Is TWoFM the only FF book with an all-male cast? Interesting observation. Does that make the kissing kobold in citadel the first woman in ff?
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Dec 4, 2019 20:22:22 GMT
The maze section should be written out more. Keep the structure of the maze, but add more detailed descriptions of the hall-ways so they are easier to recognize when you accidentally backtrack. The second Cretan Chronicles book had a similar maze, but the walls were decorated with friezes depicting scenes of famous Greek myths - good way of making things more engaging without actually changing the gameplay. Something similar done here would be good. Maybe friezes of Zagor's feats? Definitely. Didn't the Warlock magazine version do this? I don't mind the two swigs - gives weak characters a good chance against the Iron Cyclops. Good idea. I would suggest the following: * Hide the Dragon Fire spell better * Don't hide one of the essential keys with the Cyclops - that way it doesn't make the Zagor fight a formality and makes the cyclops optional * Have the shield work on a 5 or 6 rather than just a 6. All good calls, especially on the Iron Cyclops and key being separated. I think the friezes in the Cretan maze in 'At the Court of King Minos' were themselves a clue or guide - follow in the footsteps of Herakles and you find your way to the centre and your ultimate enemy.
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Post by Weasel Fierce on Dec 5, 2019 16:58:44 GMT
I strongly dislike the idea of tinkering with the backstory just to give your greed a moral overcoat. That's a bit of a "greedo shot first" situation there - as I know how the story used to be, adding a "and in addition to his riches, that guy is EEEVIL!" would just feel artificial. The other changes sound good, especially disentangling key and cyclops eye. That's a fair observation too. Though didn't they do just that later, by having it turn out he was in cahoots with Dire and Marr? I'm trying to remember from decades ago. * * * The Cyclops could instead have some sort of bonus item that makes something else a bit easier.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,462
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Dec 5, 2019 22:07:17 GMT
Though didn't they do just that later, by having it turn out he was in cahoots with Dire and Marr? I'm trying to remember from decades ago It's inconsistent. Creature of Havoc says he was one of the Demonic Three who murdered their master. The Trolltooth Wars say only Marr and Dire murdered him and Zagor was against it.
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Post by weaselfierce on Dec 6, 2019 16:38:38 GMT
Though didn't they do just that later, by having it turn out he was in cahoots with Dire and Marr? I'm trying to remember from decades ago It's inconsistent. Creature of Havoc says he was one of the Demonic Three who murdered their master. The Trolltooth Wars say only Marr and Dire murdered him and Zagor was against it. Checking, it seems like the Warlock magazine version of the quest also plays up him being evil a bit more though it's mostly "Well, he hangs out with a bunch of evil monsters, right?" So maybe it's just anti-goblin racism at play
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Dec 7, 2019 10:16:08 GMT
I'd add a female character somewhere. Is TWoFM the only FF book with an all-male cast? Interesting observation. Does that make the kissing kobold in citadel the first woman in ff? Quite possibly...though I don't know about you, but when I slaughtered all those Orcs when they were having their dinner and took their bow and arrow, I didn't check their gender. I was too busy ransacking their room.
Any experts in human anatomy round here?
Is that a male pelvis or a female one?
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Post by daredevil123 on Dec 7, 2019 11:25:17 GMT
There are some women who shed tears when you leave in the introduction though.
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Post by tyrion on Dec 11, 2019 17:33:46 GMT
I never understood the fuss about the maze, it's a simple mapping exercise. And it's got a minotaur in it which makes it feel a bit cretan.
I do agree on splitting the key from the Cyclops though. Once you've defeated it, you're basically flicking through pages until you win.
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Post by The Count on Dec 18, 2019 16:40:11 GMT
Move the Cyclops key to elsewhere.
Make the final confrontation with zagor an actual fight, made easier with the cyclops eye.
Change the key numbers.
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Dec 18, 2019 18:38:17 GMT
Having two of the needed keys both being the same number 111 seemed a bit sneaky to me. In my youth before I beat the book I always wondered if I had collected a duplicate key and therefore one of these two (if you collected both) wouldnt be correct in the final tally.
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Post by schlendrian on Dec 18, 2019 19:23:31 GMT
The trope of the villain falling to dust when his secret weakness is exploited is one I much care for and which I deem very typical of ff. I wouldn't weaken the effects of the cyclop's eye therefore, just move it so that you could reach the successful ending without it.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Dec 18, 2019 20:02:13 GMT
Yes. Off the top of my head maybe introduce a codeword or some sort of subtle distinction near the start of the book which then dictates which keys are the ones which will work. For example.. Codeword 'x' you need 99, 111, 111 Codeword 'y' you need 9, 125, 111 Codeword 'z' you need 9, 66, 111
Something like that.
It would increase the number of 'key paragraphs' though.. ('one key turns 2 do not' etc).
Or maybe for each new printing of the book change the locations of the keys or the keys needed. They made changes in the Warlock Magazine version....
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Post by peasantscribbler on Feb 1, 2020 16:03:55 GMT
The logic behind some of the attribute testing in Warlock of Firetop Mountain was weak. Skill testing was confined to breaking down doors, which doesn’t make sense because there is no skill involved. I would change these skill tests to stamina tests or possibly to the combined stamina and luck test that was used for punting the enchanted raft on the river. On the other hand, using a bow to hit the Wight with a silver arrow requires skill and should have been a skill test instead of a luck test. However, the worst of all was the precedent set by substituting random die roll outcomes for luck tests. To give just one example: if you jump into the river from the enchanted raft, you roll 1d6 to determine if you can swim back to the bank without encountering piranhas (you are successful if you roll 1-4). Note that there are only two possible outcomes: either you are unlucky and you encounter piranhas or you are lucky and you don’t. The book substituted real world luck for the specific way luck is supposed to be determined in the game. The stakes are kind of low in this example because the piranhas aren’t that dangerous, but later books like Trial of Champions and Masks of Mayhem used the same logic error to more devastating effect.
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Post by marblefigure on Feb 2, 2020 21:22:36 GMT
I’d put a key to the armoury in the snake’s box and add a gauntlet of weapon skill to the armoury. Maybe one that gives a +1 attack strength modifier, or else is like the gauntlet of weapon skill in the Sorcery! Series - allowing the player to re roll one die if they are below 5 stamina.
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Post by a moderator on Feb 2, 2020 23:27:48 GMT
So where would you put key 99? You can't just replace an essential item with something merely useful, or you'll break the book.
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Post by The Editor (Alex B) on Feb 3, 2020 7:52:56 GMT
* The maze section should be written out more. Keep the structure of the maze, but add more detailed descriptions of the hall-ways so they are easier to recognize when you accidentally backtrack. Kind of missing the point there I think. The maze is featureless to make it *seem* bigger and more complex than it actually is (the teleports and secret doors help massively in this regard to). The number of people who mentioned getting lost in it is a testament to how simple yet cunning the maze design is (when a map of it shows how quite simple it actually is).
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Post by marblefigure on Feb 3, 2020 13:29:33 GMT
So where would you put key 99? You can't just replace an essential item with something merely useful, or you'll break the book. The little snake’s box can hold two keys, or else any of the chest keys could open the armoury. Any of the keys could open the door to the Warlock’s treasure room, even though the chest requires three specific ones.
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Post by peasantscribbler on Mar 25, 2020 1:12:50 GMT
I’d put a key to the armoury in the snake’s box and add a gauntlet of weapon skill to the armoury. Maybe one that gives a +1 attack strength modifier, or else is like the gauntlet of weapon skill in the Sorcery! Series - allowing the player to re roll one die if they are below 5 stamina. Having recently tried to play WoFTM with minimum stats, I now know where you are coming from with this suggestion. Your change would greatly increase the chance of winning with minimum stats.
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IoannesKantakouzenos
Traveller
Being slowly eaten alive by a Ghoul
Posts: 106
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy (Aventuras Fantásticas)
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Post by IoannesKantakouzenos on Jun 13, 2022 15:48:14 GMT
Bigger maze! (and a Vampire picture)
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Post by slloyd14 on Jul 7, 2022 0:26:23 GMT
The shop that just sells a candle should sell more stuff like a proper shop. Reduce the maze to one section of - you walk round a maze and get frustrated. Then add some more encounters.
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Post by a moderator on Jul 7, 2022 0:54:32 GMT
Reduce the maze to one section of - you walk round a maze and get frustrated. Then add some more encounters. Why even bother with the maze if you're going to pare it down that much? A bit of trimming or enlivening wouldn't go amiss, but a maze that has less impact on gameplay than a comfy chair might as well not be there at all.
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Post by scouserob on Jul 7, 2022 7:33:58 GMT
I'd clear up the ambiguity of that eternal question of whether you start with a shield or not.
It seems an odd recurring issue, in the early books at least, with City of Thieves and Deathtrap Dungeon missing the shield out of the initial equipment section but then clearly indicating you have a shield within the text of the adventure. (So I'm happy to give myself a shield at the start in these cases.)
In The Warlock of Firetop Mountain it is even more ambiguous and rather important when it comes to leaving an item behind in the small armoury.
The Equipment and Potions section, the usual place to go to begin filling in my pre-adventure adventure sheet, has no mention of a shield. As far as I'm aware, neither does the general text of the introduction or the adventure itself before the small armoury.
Yet the very first paragraph of the rules under title How to Fight Creatures of the Underworld, of all places, states: You have in your possession a sword and a shield together with a rucksack....
So after all that blather, I'd either add the shield to the Equipment and Potions section or remove it from the How to Fight Creatures of the Underworld section.
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Post by slloyd14 on Jul 7, 2022 7:52:30 GMT
Reduce the maze to one section of - you walk round a maze and get frustrated. Then add some more encounters. Why even bother with the maze if you're going to pare it down that much? A bit of trimming or enlivening wouldn't go amiss, but a maze that has less impact on gameplay than a comfy chair might as well not be there at all. That's true. We could get rid of the maze. I'd put in a joke saying something like "You see a sign that says Maze of Zagor, but when you look, you notice that someone has blown massive holes into the walls. You guess that it is no longer the maze it used to be."
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