23) Masks of Mayhem Solution

[champskees]

This book is pretty harsh. Tons of insta deaths, a 1 in 6 chance to secure a vital quest item, a 2 in 3 chance of surviving the fire (which is not that bad) and plenty of Test your Luck/Skill: fail = death instances. The Horn of Hever? Forget it; it’s just not worth it. You do however, start with a magic potion: I recommend the Potion of Fortune as the bump to your stats will be worth it overall. I recommend Skill 10+, Luck 10+, and a whole lot of real luck too if you want that Orb.

- Strike out around its eastern edge.
- Camp by the lakeside.
- Settle down to sleep straight away.
- Test Luck. Fail = Death.
- Fight them.
- Slash at the tentacles themselves. Note that you must fight them two at a time.
- Fight Sk 6 St 6 Tentacle.
- Fight Sk 6 St 6 Tentacle.
- Fight Sk 6 St 6 Tentacle.
- Fight Sk 6 St 6 Tentacle.
- Fight Sk 6 St 6 Tentacle.
- Note: Turn to ‘100’ when you can call on Galrin (2 Damage, +2 Luck).
- Press on regardless.
- Turn left.
- Fight Sk 9 St 12 Wight.
- Take Wight’s Sword (+1 Skill – can go over initial score).
- Stay where you are until the mist clears.
- Have a look around.
- Investigate the hut which looks fairly intact.
- Look around.
- Question the hermit further.
- Take Sceptre. Note: ‘1’ ruler.
- Investigate the main shaft.
- Go down and trust the ladder.
- Let yourself go into space.
- Test Luck. Fail = 2 Damage.
- Go west.
- Take a Nugget.
- Continue along the main tunnel.
- Carry on.
- Plod on through the darkness.
- Drink Potion of Fortune here (+1 Initial Luck, full restore to Luck)
- Test Luck. Fail = Death.
- Keep to the left hand wall.
- Fight Sk 9 St 10 Doragar.
- Take Snattacat’s Tusk, Stone Statuette & 5 Gold Pieces.
- Eat after the fight (-1 Food, +4 Stamina).
- Test Luck. Fail = Death.
- You have stopped to eat (+1 Luck).
- Continue along the main tunnel.
- Wade through it.
- Carry on struggling through.
- If your stamina is less than 12, you die.
- You have stopped to eat.
- Take the left branch.
- Press on stealthily.
- Test Luck.
        o If successful:
                o Test Skill.
                        o If successful, do D6 Damage to enemy & Fight Sk 9 St 11 Nandibear.
        o If you fail at either luck or skill test:
                o Fight Sk 9 St 11 Nandibear (-1 Skill for remainder of fight).
- You met the Doragar family in the mine.
- You have a Snattacat’s Tusk.
- Add note: Tusk has 11 dragons & 8 seeds on it.
- You have a statuette.
- Add note: It is a statuette of Cholumbara.
- You have nothing else.
- Eat some food & drink from the spring (+4 Stamina, -1 Food, +2 Luck). Only +2 Stamina if you have no food.
- If you have two or fewer food left, take 6 Damage.
- Bypass the village and cross the large ploughed field.
- Offer him Cholumbara (+1 Luck).
- Accept and go straight away.
- Decline (+4 Stamina).
- Go with him.
- Get him to make up a song about your own visit to Fallow Dale (+1 Luck, +2 Stamina).
- You do not have a magic crystal mirror.
- Do not accept the test (-2 Luck).
- Go over to discuss the matter with Hever.
- Fight Sk 9 St 12 Hellfire Spirit (deal 3 Damage instead of 2 when you hit).
- Use any remaining food you have.
- Take up to 10 lots of Food.
- Wait beside trail.
- Head south west along the trail.
- Carry on along the trail.
- Take 10 Gold Pieces (5 Damage).
- Press on (-1 Food).
- You followed the ant trail.
- Continue north.
- Bypass the village.
- Skirt it by heading north east.
- Turn back on to a northerly route.
- Note: Paragraph number ‘336’.
- You want to see what he has got.
- Purchase an Antifreeze Potion & Cloak of Temporary Invisibility (-15 Gold).
- Return to paragraph 336.
- Continue north (-2 Food).
- Stay where you are.
- Test Skill. Fail = Death.
- Start a fire north of where you stand.
- Roll D6: 1 or 2 = 4 Damage. 3 or 4 = Death.
- Head west along the cliff (+1 Luck).
- Do not use the Cloak.
- Fight Sk 7 St 12 Giant Bloodhawk.
- Dive underwater to get at the creature’s underbelly.
- Fight Sk 7 St 8 Alligator (-1 to Skill for remainder of fight).
- Roll 2D6. If 4-10, you cannot win (just give up now). If 2,3,11 or 12, continue.
- Dive down to investigate.
- Try to take the orb.
- You still have your helmet.
- Take Orb. Add note: ‘21’.
- Head north for a while.
- Continue north.
- Explore Marsh Vile.
- Go straight on.
- Continue jumping from mound to mound straight ahead.
- Go half left.
- Go straight on.
- Add note: Page ’208’ (+2 Luck, +4 Stamina).
- Ask him to restore one of your faculties.
- Restore Stamina to initial level.
- Walk around the copse (-1 Food).
- Climb the hill & investigate the trees.
- Add orb and sceptre together (21+1 = 22). Go to para 22.
- Use page number. Go to para 208.
- Use seeds and dragon numbers (11*88 = 88). Go to para 88.
- You have an antifreeze potion.
- Attack them.
- Fight Sk 8 St 10 Tribesman & Sk 7 St 12 Tribesman together (slightly different rules though).
- Take Snow Shoes.
- You are alone.
- Carry on trudging through the snow.
- Head towards the west of Krill Garnash.
- Remain in the western pass.
- You are wearing snow shoes.
- Fight Sk 7 St 13 Chion.
- Use the Cloak.
- Fight Sk 10 St 10 Ice Dragon.
- Search the dragon’s cave.
- Take the wooden door.
- Go right.
- Continue down this branch.
- Carry on.
- Enter the cavern.
- Call on Galrin. Turn to para 100.
- Fight Sk 11 St 6 Morgana (your attacks only do 1 Damage per hit). Use luck.
- Morgana did not curse you on Pikestaff plain.
- You talked to Vashti.
- Court wizard is Ifor Tynin. Go to para 40.
- Fight Sk 8 St 10 The traitor.
- Victory! The Masks of Mayhem will not be released upon the land – at any rate, not in your lifetime...

[Arion III]

One of the best covers in the series, and the story had a lot of promise, but the ridiculous number of crucial Skill/Luck Tests where failure equals death, all of which lie along the only correct path to victory, are frustrating more than challenging. The possibility of finding the vital Crystal Orb after the fight with the alligator hinging on a roll of 2,3,11 or 12 on two dice is just maddening. Even if you know the exactly correct path you have very little chance of completing the adventure successfully. In my opinion this makes Mayhem a seriously flawed gamebook. I think it's more difficult than Trial of Champions. Is Masks of Mayhem the most difficult Fighting Fantasy of all, even given maximal initial stats?

[offm]

crypt of the sorcerer is pretty hard to win too, and do not agree with trial of the Champions beeing so difficult (love the book by the way)

[kieran]

Yeah Crypt of the Sorceror is probably the toughest when it comes to dice rolls with Spellbreaker a close second. The latter has a very twisted route to victory too and relies on a lot of seemingly arbitrary choices. Caverns of the Snow Witch, Black Vein Prophecy, The Crimson Tide, Knights of Doom and Curse of the Mummy are up there too. Trial of Champions would probably be within the top 10 for difficulty , I'd say it's roughly on a par with Masks of Mayhem.

[Arion III]

Out of the Titan books in the series up to #23, I think Mayhem is the most difficult without simply re-rolling the forest fire and orb die rolls until you get the roll you need. I singled out Trial of Champions for the second most difficult because of the 1 in 3 instant death with the Siren along the correct path (roll 1 or 2 and die unless failing a Skill roll subsequently, come on!). Good call on Snow Witch, but at least with maximal initial stats you can be pretty sure of making it if you do everything exactly right. Not so with Trial of Champions and Masks of Mayhem where a random die roll can torpedo a perfectly played game!

[ayphiddus]

Didn't you ever think that Morgana was quite cute for an evil despot trying to take of the world?

[Pete Byrdie]

Feb 13, 2016 15:13:20 GMT ayphiddus said:

Didn't you ever think that Morgana was quite cute for an evil despot trying to take of the world?

Yes, but psychopathic goth witches are my type.

[stevendoig]

I always thought (rightly or wrongly) that the writer intended the correct path to be via the Elves, you then look in the magic mirror , get an important clue and get transported to the mine. I know that means you miss out on the Wight's magic weapon but I think in a making sense of the story sort of fashion then that's the way to go

Of course I Could be blethering!

[a moderator]

You can meet the Elves, look in their mirror, and get the Wight's sword. The only real risk is that if you turn the wrong way, you wind up at one of the most rubbish bad endings in gamebook history.

[stevendoig]

Interesting! I think I'll have another replay soon and maybe post a (variant) solution.

[Fantasy Flyer]

You forgot something else in the Solution. It's important. You can't POSSIBLY know to search Marsh Vale (book already hvaing told you ages ago how dangerous it was) UNLESS you're told to "visit the JUJA"

So going BACK to Para 20 where you take your leave of Hever (the Hunting Horn of the Yachar really NOT helping you with the adventure. It's not worth the effort simply cos it's NO help to you at all!)


*From Para 20, you notice a trail going dead straight from south west to north east. WAIT BY IT.
*Treasure Ants are making this trail, and ignore pressing on northwards with your quest and ignore waiting here to see if they pass with something valuable and follow their trail south-west even though it's "out of your way".
*At 105 you're told that after two hours travel out of your way you've seen no ant nest and nothing carried of value beyond a rusty nail. This lull is to stop you from perservering onwards with the trail so ignore it.
*At 304 you've found the nest and you claim 10 Gold Pieces, necessitating the loss of STAMINA points through stings and bites to get it. Now you finally head north.
*Don't rest, eat provision, and having followed ant nest, you get the choice you wouldn't get otherwise of picking north from this point, taking you to a ruined village. DON'T BYPASS IT but WALK THROUGH IT!
*Fight the SKELETONS both together that jerk out of a hut. Book dumbly forgets to say but hit them only with 1 STAMINA damage as edged weapons less effect on bone. Fight these together, DON'T take bejewelled choker.
*Continue north through village, but DON'T poke about the houses, instead take yourself to an old woman sitting outside farmhouse. Approach her, then slap her once she laughs hysterically.
*She asks for "something precious" to tell you "something precious". Again text tries to take over telling you it's doubtful whatever she says won't be "dangerously misleading".
*Really, it's the aurthor being DANGEROUSLY MISLEADING! So give her something-the statue of Cholumbara is far better spent here than wasted on a loser farmer! Unless you have 3 Gold Pieces to spare.
*She tells you to "seek the Juja-he knows more than I do"-and laughs hysterically, but you've been a given a name so commit it to memory.
*NOW you go to section 336 to Alchemist on Water Buffalo pulled caravan. IGNORE expensive Invisilbility Cloak and buy INSTEAD the Healing Potion, plus the Antifreeze one.
*Deadly bushfire now begins at Section 13. Stay where you are.
*Roll your SKILL or under successfully, and then start a fire north of where you stand. Roll one die, 3-4 has you killed, 1-2 STAM damage, 5-6 unharmed.
*Add 1 LUCK for surviving fire and head west along cliff and fight GIANT BLOODHAWK Sk7 St12.
*Gentle climb down to river, cross and dive underneath to tackle ALLIGATOR Sk7 St8.
*Roll two dice, but need to get less than 4 or more than 10 to discover a throned Skeleton on bottom of pool, wearing crown, clutching an Orb.
*LEAVE crown, but take Orb, but only if you still have your helmet. On it says "21 is the no. of the ruler's sway".
*Text now cheeks you again by saying "you know you should avoid Marsh Vile if you possibly can", but you could still head north over north-east. Do so!
*Now here you notice out of the many streams and rivulets crossing your path is one reduced to a trickle. DDON'T continue north, go upstream to find blockage source.
*A prostrate female Hill-Warrior (whatever that is) riddled with arrows is causing it. GET OUT YOUR HEALING POTION bought from Alchemist as long as you've not used it y'self!
*She perks up enough from it to mutter: "the JUJA". {This is now the SECOND mention of the name} So ASK her about the JUJA, and NOT how to get to Morgana!
*She replies: "He is CLOSE, I don't know exactly where, I only know a rhyme-DO NOT WANDER, DO NOT STRAY, ALWAYS TAKE THE MIDDLE WAY." She dies. Bury here and carry on north.
*Explore Marsh vile at para 345, then go straight on, cont. jumping mound to mound straight ahead, then go half-left, then straight on.
*You've found the home of the JUJA! He feeds you (add 4 STAM) and tells you to see "Vashti in Maiden's Vale" and you should "know already how to get into it".
*But he has a clue of how to get out of it-"oak for in and apple for out" on page 208 in his tome (remember page no). Gain 2 LUCK points for this.
*But now ASK him how to get into Morgana's lair, NOT to restore your scores. He tells you the middle door out of three that's made of wood, so the female warrior didn't need to tell you this!
*Resume your journey, walking around the first copse you come to.
*You finally come across a hill crowned by two flourishing oaks almost glowing. Explore them and then add together the no. on Sceptre and Orb.
*No.22 and into to see Vashti. She explains her presence and how her help is restrained but she's lost the ability to leave her land. You remember page 208 of tome.
*She speaks of her old friendship with the Juja and tells you about the seeds being needed to leave her place. Multiply the ones you should have by the tiny dragon engravings on an old tusk.
*88 is the no. and she tells you that your helmet tells you YOU are the sigil Morgana needs. It's a trap, yes, but only you can stop her. Vashti releases you to continue.
*Your Antifreeze potion stops you losing STAM. Attack jerk Tribesmen fools and take the Snowshoes of one.
*Ignore the sighted distant figure staring at you (it's likely THE traitor!). DON'T take Champskees advice above, go east as the Ice-Hulk easier to fight and no death part attached!
*Then fight WHITE DRAGON Sk10 Stamina14, use LUCK in battle if poss. And it's WHITE, not ICE Dragon Mr Waterfield! Silly pic also.
*Explore its cave and find a secret safer entrance to Morgana's domain! You've been TOLD the right door to take!
*The right door ISN'T the one on the right door! You suffer no fight here through NOT having the Horn of Hever! Real useful that cheeky distraction of nothing!
*Take side-passage to your right, turn left at T-junction, enter the unlit cavern, get set upon by 11 STONE GOLEMS.
*Only way to avoid your destruction is to call on Galrin, which you have to remember how when you set them free from spectral bondage.
*Fight MORGANA Sk11 St6. Weirdly she doesn't even throw spells at you (maybe cos the book was almost impossibly hard to this point). Fight her, using LUCK if you can.
*Without being cursed by Morgana earlier AND having met and spoken to Vashti (even though she didn't really hint at this) you turn around...
*...to find the treacherous power-hungry Ifor Tynin ready to literally now 'stab you in the back. Traitor Sk8 St10.
400! You have won-the masks can never be used in your lifetime.

The book is clever from the start (unlike 'Creature of Havoc' which I hate, it's pathetic and pretentious and ridiculous and uncompletable beyond belief) and there's a few hard to get to paras, involving weird BLACKHEARTS one way (mix of Orc and Dark Elf I ask you!-The Wood Elves of Affen forest ain't very good to let THOSE live, and SPRIGGANS down another route which you can get gold and a Garnet Ring from, plus a Rope from BLACKHEARTS, plus weirdo Kappa/Jalprai beings near a waterfall later, but you don't need these things, but you need to fight Giant Squid (something a KRAKEN is NOT all gamebook writers, please see the DD Monster Manual and don't lift names for other beings!). Also, though they are avoided if not careful (and their attitude to you is quite offensively rude considering their general "pure" hearts, but then that's the book this is!), you need to see the Wood Elves, go with them to their village where the Cheif and Shaman are looking in the freak mirror that they rudely let kill you (!?) unless you tell them who you are and what your aim is, whereupon you need to ask them what they've seen in the mirror and they show it to you and you see yourself standing between two large oaks clutching two objects raised to the air, then you are told about sigils for seeing and riddles for hearing and your one way being narrow and truly hard! You can say that twice more plus! Then as soon as you are transported by them to the outside world again, whereupon you go left, fight the Wight (which this author forgets are solid and also are supposed to take SKILL of you with each third wound, but ALSO only supposed to have half the STAMINA this has here! You take its sword and then you wait for mist to clear, and immediately, if you make right decisions, you are holding aloft one of the items you were likely just told about barely 10 paras back!

Above all this is a great book once you get it but it IS completable, unlike that 'Havoc' one! Other nicely challenging (a better word than difficult) are 'Deathtrap Dungeon', 'Midnight Rogue', 'Portal Of Evil', 'Vault Of The Vampire', 'Phantoms Of Fear', 'Battleblade Warrior', 'Fangs Of Fury', 'Dead Of Night', 'Master Of Chaos' and probably 'Daggers Of Darkness'. Also you can make 'Talisman Of Death' harder by not doing it with falsely top scores, and only injuring Red Dragon via 3 STAM every blow with spear, not 5! Also take the harder route in 'Sword Of The Samurai' and do the only one proper ending in 'Demons Of The Deep'-the one that states you survive WITH treasure AND a way of getting back to port. Without all these 3 things-your life, money to live on and not having to swim all the tiring and dangerous miles home! 'Trail of Champions', 'Crypt Of Sorcerer' are both rudely hard, but the real cleverness lies in finding the longest, most dangerous route and not missing out on ANY of the shopping list you need, but also knowing just WHICH items NOT to take with you, or WHEN to use them (i.e Red Dust from WITCH in 'Trail'!). Jonathan Green's books seem impossibly hard and weird too, almost like there IS no real route to win but I'm not overly familair with them, but I know a lot of the books past No.41 seem to be riddled with typos, making a win impossible?! What ARE editors for and don't these annoying writers CHECK their books first!? Dear oh bloody dear!!

[philsadler]

Well I'm pretty sure that Revenge of the Vampire had a number of errors, but I'm not so sure that "a lot of the books past 41" did.

[champskees]

Feb 22, 2016 22:29:13 GMT stevendoig said:

I always thought (rightly or wrongly) that the writer intended the correct path to be via the Elves, you then look in the magic mirror , get an important clue and get transported to the mine. I know that means you miss out on the Wight's magic weapon but I think in a making sense of the story sort of fashion then that's the way to go

Of course I Could be blethering!

You are right. It requires a couple of minor changes, but it is better to talk to the elves for the clue. Originally I felt having the bard's clue (getting an orb and sceptre) would be enough, but this is essentially risk free and you get +1 Luck (not really helpful, but still better than nothing).

[champskees]

Mar 24, 2016 17:15:45 GMT Fantasy Flyer said:

You forgot something else in the Solution. It's important. You can't POSSIBLY know to search Marsh Vale (book already hvaing told you ages ago how dangerous it was) UNLESS you're told to "visit the JUJA"

So going BACK to Para 20 where you take your leave of Hever (the Hunting Horn of the Yachar really NOT helping you with the adventure. It's not worth the effort simply cos it's NO help to you at all!)

I don't *have* to know to search Marsh Vile. It is a legitimate choice; the book asks me if I want to explore Marsh Vile. So what if prior to this choice the book told me I should avoid it? Just because a sign says I shouldn't speed does not mean I will necessarily stay under the speed limit. I get what you are saying, and I agree - that should be the route you follow in order to complete the adventure. But there are many red-herrings in this adventure. Following your logic, you should have ignored what the hag in the village says due to the writer mentioning she may be 'dangerously' misleading. Can't have it both ways.

The solutions I present are written with the intention of providing the player with the best odds of completing the book using every potential edge available. If there were two players, one following my solution and one following yours, the one using mine would have a higher chance of success. Though as I have mentioned above, I would recommend visiting the Elves as Stevendoig has suggested as there is no tangible difference in success rates by doing so. Not giving a healing potion to the injured girl is cheesy but completely playable given the books design.

Ultimately most (if not all) of the FF adventures require the player to use metaknowledge in order to progress. Not doing so would be somewhat masochistic.

[philsadler]

Hey, Champskees, I've always wondered where you've got that laughing man picture? I've seen it many places but I don't know where it originally came from.

[champskees]

Mar 25, 2016 9:10:42 GMT philsadler said:

Hey, Champskees, I've always wondered where you've got that laughing man picture? I've seen it many places but I don't know where it originally came from.

Yao Ming Know Your Meme

The image is typically used as a reaction face to convey a dismissive attitude towards someone else’s input in online discussions, then usually following something that one ups their input.

He is a Chinese basketball player in the NBA. At 7'6", he is literally one in a billion.

[philsadler]

Thanks for that!

[celestialconquerer62]

Mar 25, 2016 3:40:26 GMT champskees said:

Mar 24, 2016 17:15:45 GMT Fantasy Flyer said:

You forgot something else in the Solution. It's important. You can't POSSIBLY know to search Marsh Vale (book already hvaing told you ages ago how dangerous it was) UNLESS you're told to "visit the JUJA"

So going BACK to Para 20 where you take your leave of Hever (the Hunting Horn of the Yachar really NOT helping you with the adventure. It's not worth the effort simply cos it's NO help to you at all!)

I don't *have* to know to search Marsh Vile. It is a legitimate choice; the book asks me if I want to explore Marsh Vile. So what if prior to this choice the book told me I should avoid it? Just because a sign says I shouldn't speed does not mean I will necessarily stay under the speed limit. I get what you are saying, and I agree - that should be the route you follow in order to complete the adventure. But there are many red-herrings in this adventure. Following your logic, you should have ignored what the hag in the village says due to the writer mentioning she may be 'dangerously' misleading. Can't have it both ways.

The solutions I present are written with the intention of providing the player with the best odds of completing the book using every potential edge available. If there were two players, one following my solution and one following yours, the one using mine would have a higher chance of success. Though as I have mentioned above, I would recommend visiting the Elves as Stevendoig has suggested as there is no tangible difference in success rates by doing so. Not giving a healing potion to the injured girl is cheesy but completely playable given the books design.

Ultimately most (if not all) of the FF adventures require the player to use metaknowledge in order to progress. Not doing so would be somewhat masochistic.

[celestialconquerer62]

I just thought it weird or lucky that you explore Marsh Vile when (a) text tells you it's so dangerous and (b) there's deaths at every turn in it apart from one true way, though I admit you're walkthrough doesn't state how many times you must have attempted the marsh and dying while doing it, when no one advised you too. But actually that woman in the village is even more important and I forgot to add several things. Robin Wakefield's cleverness at making things hard to acquire and making you miss things is up there with the best of them, maybe even above, but it's also balanced against his unfortunately vague if not damned insulting death passages. Take No.263-"you walk off through the mist and are never seen again, by man or monster on this earth". Yes but IS that a death and WHY should this part of the hill be dangerous and HOW is it dangerous, when the routes aren't!

Waterfield doesn't prove helpful with this attitude over things. Wood Elves are supposed to be the most benevolent humanoids around, yet he has these two in the hut afford no decency to a ruler of a peaceful land trying to stop a mad harridan from enslaving the world with violence and death, and if you simply try to look into a mirror, they attack you. WTF? They're Wood Elves. Hell the enslaved fake Wood Elves from 'Portal Of Evil' were a hundred times more decent. And Hever turning the mirror onto you if you have it and letting it kill you. And he calls THAT evil, a man who lets Orcs break into his place and steal from his guest-then let's that guess go out after them unaccompanied, and is also happy for a Sabre Toothed Tiger he's not got the skill or gumption to catch himself kill me, or fall down a pit his loser men have dug in a useless attempt to catch it. He even expects to say nothing about his village ruffians accosting you and you not being able to tell him about it. What silliness. Everything's so weighted against you, until you discover the route of course.

I'm thrilled to say I discovered something else. I'd advise going around eastern edge of forest and camp by lakeside straight away whereupon you go to sleep then being rudely woken up by a Giant Squid and successfully Tested Luck, and destroy all Sk6 St6 tentacles off it, mainly with your sword, using a torch from the fire is more harmful to you and a waste of time but doing it this way, instead of the one section where it differs by having the choice to strike it's head (and after the spectral army appear and pledge their help as long as you say Galrin at the right time), you then get the chance to press on through the forest or slump down for a rest by a tree. And picking straight on from here means you get to see the Elves as well, just not staright away. BUT by pressing on, you come upon a bunch of ugly little fairy gits called Spriggans. Killing one Sk6 St8 and two Sk7 St8 has the rtest run away and your able to grab what they leave behind-10 Gold Pieces and a Garnet Ring. You spend the night safely in their camp protected by their fairy lights (!) and then in morning you then pick north-east path over the west one, which allows you to meet the annoying Elves who then give seem to make the mirror safe to look into when you tell them of your quest, and you see an image of yourself holding aloft two objects between two oaks and that you'll remember this place should you ever get there. From there the Elves transport you to a mist-laden eastern side of the lake, where you can rejoin familiarity by going left and dealing with his Wight, and then you're soon holding one of the objects seen in the mirror.

Best of all it means that you can now offer the Garnet Ring to the old lady in the village who tells you it's from her sisters' coven in Affen Forest, and she then gives you a brilliant riddle saying: "Seek the Juja, I don't know where he is but there's supposed to be a clue in a riddle: "I AM NOT EARTH BUT I CAN SUPPORT; I AM NOT WATER BUT I CAN YIELD; I AM NOT AIR, BUT I CAN BELCH; I AM NOT FIRE BUT I CAN EXPLODE". This clever elementally driven riddle is the best I've ever read in a book yet, and the answer is obviously (or not so clearly maybe) a marsh or swamp. And if you THEN ask her what happened in the village instead of walking straight off, she says that the awful morgana came and took her husband-the farmer away. So now I get what Vashti means when she says to me that "she's got the Bard, then the Farmer". You'd think Hever might try a bit of killing her himself seeing as the Bard was his, the lazy git! And after this, NOW I can buy the Healing Potion, Anti-Freeze one AND the Invisibility Cloak as I finally have the perfect amount of gold for all 3 (10 from Spriggans, 10 from Treasure Ants' nest and 5 from the Doragar from the mine. Which also means that when I come across the Hill Warrior girl and give her the Potion, she then gives me directions to the Juja, and him being mentioned again tells me he's important.

So it's good of him to enable us to complete it even if we don't get all this info, making him pleasanter than Livingstone and Jackson, especially with his downright awful and pretentious and backward 'Creature Of Havoc' which I still hate, it's so pointless beyond some nice pics, and would have made a much better novel than a gamebook, which I feel he was really toying with and it went so wrong. I still don't see how a ghost army can destroy tough Stone Golems, but Galrin and his lot must be some ghosts! Maybe the Squid granted them some amazing power in the rare likelihood anyone was able to kill it and then set them free before their final journey.

There are hints in this book-certainly of the image of the player standing with two objects in front two trees of the same ideas being played out in his next book, the equally cool 'Phantoms Of Fear' which took me ages to appreciate and complete, but in that he's created two very different ways to achieve the goal which is clever rather than the (just one) that many books employ. But Waterfield's cleverness at where he hid the Orb, and how to get enough gold, and to find info you'd need out, alongside the many ways the fire can get you, and how having a rope in this adventure is more a hindrance than help, even though it's hard enough toc ome by, and it took me long enough to realise I didn't need, Above all, I love the way he gets the reader to assume accurately who THE TRAITOR is without explicitly saying a name. So a great, devious, cheeky book, one of the best, but some of the death sections should be far more detailed. It can't be that fair or easy to kill someone when you don't even explain how or what happened or why. Least most of the other book do!

*

[champskees]

Apr 7, 2016 20:06:12 GMT celestialconquerer62 said:

Cool story bro. Your rants read like a slightly more sophisticated Vagsancho.

I tried to explain to you politely that your work is inferior, but since you insist on posting walls of text as a reply, I think your 'contributions' deserve a more surgical analysis.

Let's have a look at your solution first.

'Fight the SKELETONS both together that jerk out of a hut. Book dumbly forgets to say but hit them only with 1 STAMINA damage as edged weapons less effect on bone.'
The book dumbly forgets to say? Wow, I thought I was arrogant...

Ok, so you recommend fighting 2 more enemies than I do. Inferior.

'NOW you go to section 336 to Alchemist on Water Buffalo pulled caravan. IGNORE expensive Invisilbility Cloak and buy INSTEAD the Healing Potion, plus the Antifreeze one.'

The Healing Potion can only be used outside of combat, if the rules for Potions at the start of the book are anything to go by. As you will likely have a lot of food from Hever, the Potion is not as valuable as the invisibility cloak (the cloak allows for an easier fight with a Sk 10 opponent). Using the potion on the female warrior is obviously what the writer intended, but I am looking to find a solution that is better than the obvious path. This recommendation is...debatable, and I have already posted my thoughts on this.

'But now ASK him how to get into Morgana's lair, NOT to restore your scores. He tells you the middle door out of three that's made of wood, so the female warrior didn't need to tell you this!'

Why? Like you said, this is a 2/3 chance without even using the walkthrough. Restoring your scores is a no-brainer for actually completing the book, particularly with a low stats character. Inferior.

'Ignore the sighted distant figure staring at you (it's likely THE traitor!). DON'T take Champskees advice above, go east as the Ice-Hulk easier to fight and no death part attached!'

Wrong wrong wrong. The bit that really perturbs me is where you explicity advise the reader to ignore my advice. Firstly, the Chion provides no instant death chance as long as you have snow shoes, which you WILL have. Secondly, the first time you hit the ice hulk, you must test luck. Fail = -1 Skill (and 2 stamina points). Failing this roll means you have -1 Skill against the Ice Dragon AND Morgana. It also means you have 1 less luck for these future combats. Inferior.

'Then fight WHITE DRAGON Sk10 Stamina14, use LUCK in battle if poss. And it's WHITE, not ICE Dragon Mr Waterfield! Silly pic also.'

If you took my advice earlier, it would only be a 10/10 Dragon. You then suggest using luck after recommending a fight with the Ice-Hulk (read reasoning above). Inferior, inferior.

'Fight MORGANA Sk11 St6. Weirdly she doesn't even throw spells at you (maybe cos the book was almost impossibly hard to this point). Fight her, using LUCK if you can.'

See comments about using luck on Ice-Hulk earlier.

Then there are your 'revelations'

I'm thrilled to say I discovered something else. I'd advise going around eastern edge of forest and camp...

...yeah. I'm pretty sure you mean western edge of forest. East goes into the hills.

'you come upon a bunch of ugly little fairy gits called Spriggans. Killing one Sk6 St8 and two Sk7 St8 has the rtest run away and your able to grab what they leave behind-10 Gold Pieces and a Garnet Ring.' And after this, NOW I can buy the Healing Potion, Anti-Freeze one AND the Invisibility Cloak as I finally have the perfect amount of gold for all 3'

You recommend fighting two more enemies so you can buy a healing potion later on (which you really shouldn't need considering the amount of food you will have). Inferior.

Overall your solution is inferior due to the following:
- Fight 4 more enemies
- Ask the Juja for advice instead of restoration of sk/st/l
- Fight an Ice Hulk that forces you to use a luck point, with potential to lose a skill point
- Fight a 10/10 enemy after experiencing the effects of the Ice Hulk
- Fight a 12/6 enemy after experiencing the effects of the Ice Hulk

Try again.

[celestialconquerer62]

I don't get YOUR arrogant notion that you're some kind of bloody FF gamebook god (though one of those F words I could use myself I grant you), if you can't even accept someone in all friendliness pointing out there are additions to the joruney you haven't mentioned that actually speak of what you're looking for. So what, you can complete it by luck without it, like many ofthe books, but it's still good to know. Your solution seems to want to get the book out of the way asap, and I don't get how the hell it's logically completeable quicker  WITHOUT INFORMATION that the Juja, farmer's wife, hill woman and Elves give you, otherwise you wouldn't KNOW what to look for, what to do and where to go WITHOUT cheating. And maybe other readers don't want to whizz through the book in five mins like you seem to think we should. When it's done it's done, and worse, now you've detailed everything, forgetting the true path is going to be bleeding hard now-harder than the book itself ever was. Yes, you can pick Morgana's correct door simply by luck or by having already tried the others, but when the infos there, why not use it? And if I've taken Strength Potion instead of Luck st adventure's start, I certainly don't need the Healing Potion I bought for me, or to have the Juja restore it! I reckon you must have cheated at a fair amount of these books, if not all to supposedly KNOW everything about them, and I also know you're merely one of many who've had walkthroughs posted. Don't act like you're the bleeding first.The LUCK point lost against the Ice-Hulk didn't matter at all, you're forgetting I've DONE all this AND completed it, so  don't think YOUR'RE superior, not least you because you seem to be urging people to get through the books as quick as possible. And again, I didn't need the restoring of my Stats, cos they stayed pretty damned good the time I discovered/did all the things I suggested, so my point is if your stats are this good, you go ASKING for info, some of which you NEED to complete the quest! The bit that REALLY pertrubes ME is you can actually read all these suggestions like it's an attack on you-okay, so things can read different to how they're meant or would be said, but now that I feel you're asking for one, perhaps I'll get bloody started, always suppoosing you're damn worth it, but I would say I've better things to do that wasting text on idiots like you who think they're right all the time.

So I put "eastern" instead of "western"-so what? You keep on blah blahing about me "having to fight two more opponents" but that's the point. These Skeletons are necessary to be fought to talk to the famer's wife and the Spriggans have to be fought to get enough gold. I ADDED this, you twit, to deplete what I said about not needing the cloak earlier as I'd since discovered you could find the Spriggans, The Elves, and still get to the 'Wight' and continue on the correct route, which enables you to have 15 gold pieces altogether to buy the three things that matter-ignoring the dummy item-Boots of Agility-said it already and you've ignored it.For Christ's sake, fighting four more opponents with a highest SKILL of 5 or 6 is hardly going to frazzle the player, and I still don't see why there's this rush to get the book finished as quick as possible. You being timed by the publishers?

I guess I've never read the post where you said no one could post any OTHER suggestions/additions for completing the book as it's YOUR forum and only YOU are allowed to state them. My you ARE sensitive. AND insensitive, so well done you.

[johnbrawn1972]

I do have a bit of sympathy if you feel you have been trolled somewhat. Some time ago c rather trolled me but the response was pretty cogent and I think the trolling was about trying to scare away a potential troll namely me. In defence of c the aggression is manifestly there but it is backed up by 'reasons' which are compelling now and were compelling in the past. c tends to respond to counter arguments so reply about how a route is irrational or another route is less risky. The distinction between a walkthrough and player 'meta knowledge' is helpful. Your 'player' must acquire the knowledge to make progress(think the combination lock in COC) but you apply 'meta knowledge' of the route which you take from your own experience otherwise you would never make progress. Another example is the bird in FOD. You can give it a gold coin but you do not have to when you are experienced. My own 'rule of thumb' is giving a 'FF book virgin' a walkthrough solution which gives them all the answers in consecutive steps so it should never happen they reach an 'option' where they say that information was not revealed in the previous references e.g. in COC you must reach the library. To sum up your 'player' is a blank slate every time. The regulars on here will 'back anyone up' if you have a good idea or spot an inconsistency.

[a moderator]

Play nicely, champskees & celestialconqueror62. Nobody here is carrying tiger claws.

[champskees]

I feel a little conflicted here, because this forum has been struggling over the past few years & I do have an overwhelming urge to attack when I see weakness. This ultimately sends posters away, which is the last thing I want (or what the admin want for that matter). I think JB diagnosed my posting behaviour rather well, but I think it is perhaps better if I explain myself more fully. TLDR; there is a tangible difference between thoughts and solutions, and perhaps not all of your thoughts are articulated well enough to be considered a solution.

I see the FF series as a giant intellectual challenge. I approach each book as an individual puzzle that can be solved mathematically, and make the assertion that there is a 'best solution' for each one. My passion in this very niche interest is finding the perfect edge. To me, suggesting an inferior route is like stating that the best way to count is using your fingers. When someone suggests that they have discovered 'something new', and it is something that is obvious to anyone who has even glazed over the book, it irritates me because our axioms of thought are so different that to express my point of view is going to be an uphill battle from the outset.

To put my frustration into context, it is like playing blackjack - every hand should be played a particular way. Mathematically, there is a right way and a wrong way. Everytime. Whenever I want a dose of ignorance, I visit the casino, pull up a chair at one of the bj tables, and observe the play around me. The amount of profit the house makes should be relatively small; a sliver of total turnover. But they make an absolute fortune, the key reason being that players don't even play the game correctly. In fact, many do not even understand why they are doomed to fail. Even worse, many of the dealers have no clue. Several times I have had to call over the pit boss and get them to review the footage because the dealers jump the gun and hit me when i'm 12 on dealer 6. Getting 'lucky' is a short term phenomenon; ultimately those with a better strategy will realise a higher success rate.

So some very dedicated people worked out the odds and calculated every hand, giving people a solution to the game. It is called basic strategy and it undeniably gives you the best possible odds in the game outside of card counting. Anything outside of basic strategy is usually quite wrong and inefficient. Some not so dedicated people also post their 'blackjack strategies' as well, claiming that they have won big at the tables using their system, so it should be considered. No. I'm sorry, but if you are going to knock someone's logical proposal then you should have something better than half baked theories to back it up. Others will argue that playing according to a fixed strategy is boring and they want to enjoy the game. Great, go for your life I say. But don't delude yourself into thinking that your style of play is worthy of merit if there is something better already out there. 

I use the example of basic strategy in bj because that is the level at which I want these solutions to be. If you read through some of the other solutions I have been corrected by other posters who have provided sound, logical alternatives. I think quite a few of my earlier attempts were fixed by some well informed contributors, and that has been great. Because it means that I have learned something, about that particular book and also my own thinking process. I actually wait with baited breath after posting on this forum because I never 100% know if I got it right the first time. I have been arrogant at times and I freely admit that. Particular mentions are some of jb's posts (i'm thinking Scorpion Swamp & Night of the Necromancer) and Sylas' alternative to Legend of the Shadow Warriors (probably the best thing I have read on this forum tbh). Basically yes, I want to get it right the first time, that's the challenging aspect that motivated me to do all of these bloody solutions. But I also want to push each book to its limits - where can we bend the rules? Where is there an opportunity to take advantage of an oversight made by the author? This is also fun, and part of the reason I keep checking on these forums. I like to see what other little nuggets of wisdom people have gleaned from each of the books (note that this isn't just in the solution sections).

But I am unapologetic when it comes to dealing with posters like you, CelestialConquerer. I find it extremely ironic that you accuse me of thinking that i'm some sort of 'gamebook god', given the name you have chosen for yourself on this forum. I prefer arrogance over ignorance any day. Your tripe doesn't belong in the solutions section because it is a load of steaming garbage. In this age of information, we are being assaulted with an unending torrent of useless commentary and opinion. We have to be selective in what and where we decide to post because otherwise quality information is diluted and forgotten, buried under pages and pages of meaningless drivel. When I come to this forum I expect a certain standard of intelligence and diligence. I read your posts and what do I see...poor spelling. Illogical conclusions. Strawman fallacies. I mean i'll be the first one to admit the occasional Oxford comma but come on! If you cannot put a coherent string of words together then post it in the general discussion areas. A lot of the points you make have nothing to do with a solution, keep it relevant.

[champskees]

Apr 10, 2016 22:55:23 GMT johnbrawn1972 said:

I do have a bit of sympathy if you feel you have been trolled somewhat. Some time ago c rather trolled me but the response was pretty cogent and I think the trolling was about trying to scare away a potential troll namely me. In defence of c the aggression is manifestly there but it is backed up by 'reasons' which are compelling now and were compelling in the past. c tends to respond to counter arguments so reply about how a route is irrational or another route is less risky. The distinction between a walkthrough and player 'meta knowledge' is helpful. Your 'player' must acquire the knowledge to make progress(think the combination lock in COC) but you apply 'meta knowledge' of the route which you take from your own experience otherwise you would never make progress. Another example is the bird in FOD. You can give it a gold coin but you do not have to when you are experienced. My own 'rule of thumb' is giving a 'FF book virgin' a walkthrough solution which gives them all the answers in consecutive steps so it should never happen they reach an 'option' where they say that information was not revealed in the previous references e.g. in COC you must reach the library. To sum up your 'player' is a blank slate every time. The regulars on here will 'back anyone up' if you have a good idea or spot an inconsistency.

I am not going to lie it started as genuine questioning but it became quite enjoyable to bully you behind the keyboard. Thinking back you had some good points but I was more interested in being a dick. My hat off to you for staying.

By the way, were you that 'guest123' guy who asked for commentary on the Scorpion Swamp solutions? I was and still am 100% sure that was you. Right or wrong?

[johnbrawn1972]

Apr 11, 2016 13:28:07 GMT champskees said:

I am not going to lie it started as genuine questioning but it became quite enjoyable to bully you behind the keyboard. Thinking back you had some good points but I was more interested in being a dick. My hat off to you for staying.

By the way, were you that 'guest123' guy who asked for commentary on the Scorpion Swamp solutions? I was and still am 100% sure that was you. Right or wrong?

Hmm seem to be having a bit of a problem with this reply.

In 'serious mode' a la Kryten from Red Dwarf it was not me but some random poster.

[divination]

This is a cruel book imo. Too many instant deaths, not a lot of fun to play. But you do get a closeup of how nasty Khul is >;D

[123]

Hello Champskees, "That guest123 guy" here. I thought I'd clear this up once and for all: I am NOT johnbrawn. I am a Fighting Fantasy fan who liked the idea of getting all the Masters' amulets, then double-crossing Grimslade and taking them for myself. After reading a few more posts, I realise my slightly troll-like behaviour (obvious username etc.) could be misinterpreted as johnbrawn trying to con you. But I am honestly an innocent guest user.
Apologies for the confusion and thanks for the walkthroughs (still haven't completed Crypt of the Sorcerer, Goddammit).

[champskees]

Dec 2, 2016 19:09:09 GMT 123 said:

Hello Champskees, "That guest123 guy" here. I thought I'd clear this up once and for all: I am NOT johnbrawn. I am a Fighting Fantasy fan who liked the idea of getting all the Masters' amulets, then double-crossing Grimslade and taking them for myself. After reading a few more posts, I realise my slightly troll-like behaviour (obvious username etc.) could be misinterpreted as johnbrawn trying to con you. But I am honestly an innocent guest user.
Apologies for the confusion and thanks for the walkthroughs (still haven't completed Crypt of the Sorcerer, Goddammit).

Yeah it was the coincidental timing of your posts that caused the confusion. 

I think jb actually has the best solution for each of the scorpion swamp routes, he would probably be up for solving something like this. John?

[123]

It's OK, I found a map and managed to do it on my own!