56) Knights of Doom

[a moderator]

From TUFFF

daikoku said:

I've just finished playing KoD after digging out my collection from storage.

I'm struggling with balancing the need to face the Beast Men's army in 6 or fewer days with acquiring the Shadowbane sword from the Cairns of Dunar - I need all the help I can get to increase attack strength/damage for the final battles at Caer Skaal!

masterchief said:

Hi, and welcome to the Unofficial Forums!
Knights of Doom is a great book with a great atmosphere, but it's certainly not easy is it? You're right, the timing can be crucial and sometimes doing something can just leave you that one day short of what you need to get there in time....

daikoko said:

I actually think it's impossible to reconcile the two! Happy to be proved wrong of course...


*************SPOILER ALERT!! - IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW THE RESULT, LOOK AWAY NOW *****************


I really like Knights of Doom, but it does feel much harder than some of the earlier books, especially the showdown at the end. Not got tree sap? You die. Not got the Ironbane? You die. Not got the elf-spear? You die. Not met Connor? You die. Not found the words of power? You die. Plus all the skill, stamina, honour and the double luck test that all have to be passed, or else...that's right: you die.

I got absolutely mauled by the Elite Chaos Knights as well, and had just 1 stamina point left at the end, even with the magic dwarven chainmail that reduced damage by 1 point.

Still a good book though IMHO.

masterchief said:

Yes. I posted a huge 'difficulty review' of it on the official forums... It's hard alright. I know the frustration you feel!

sunil060902 said:

I read (as opposed to played!) this for the first time in many years a couple of weeks ago - and I actually quite liked it. Yes you need lots of stuff, but they weren't too difficult to find - um with a little bit of "save-gaming" if you know what I mean

masterchief said:

I have posted a question to Jon about whether this book will see the light of day as part of the Wizard Series 2 reprints here. All comments have to be approved, so it isn't there yet

hynreck said:

Good. I hope it does. The more there is, the better.

masterchief said:

The question is up, let's see if Jon himself can shed any light on the matter. It's something that's been puzzling me for a while...

masterchief said:

Jon has taken time out to answer my query; his reply can be found here.

Cheers Jon!

smile

hynreck said:

Nice, well done. The way I understand it, is that even though there are no plans for now, there's still might be a chance. If they went so far as to consider it, it still makes sense that if they ever want to re-publish an old title, this one would be the first to be considered.

Who knows?

Of course, it will still be a while, if they only do this at the end of this second series...

[a moderator]

Plus parts (but, alas, not all) of my fairly epic attempt at the book in the 'Books in Order' thread:

A while before I properly got back into FF, the local library had a sale of withdrawn stock, and I went along to see if any of the books on offer were worth getting. One volume that did catch my attention was a copy of Knights of Doom. I picked it up, had a quick flick through, chanced upon a rather perfunctory 'get undeaded' ending, and decided that I wasn't that keen, and returned the book to the table. Bet you weren't expecting that outcome! But my copy of KoD was the book I got alongside IotU, and I thought that the story of my almost getting it earlier would be more interesting than simply rehashing what wasn't that enthralling a reminiscence in the first place. Funnily enough, my first attempt ended at the very same (un)death section that had put me off getting that ex-library copy.

The dice deprive me of an opportunity to make snarky comments about how useless the Templars must be if I'm one of their best, as I'm a respectable:
Sk 12
St 21
L 11
Special Skills: Battle Tactics, Tracking, Arcane Lore, Banish Spirit
Still, this being a pre-Howl Greenbook, I'm probably still toast. But I might live long enough to get to make a few quips about Nicholas Cage in a bear costume.

What went through the mind of the King a dozen decades or so ago? One son with a name evocative of nobility and honour, the other sounding like vengeful caviar (or possibly an Exxilon separatist who plans to go back in time and avert the creation of the city that proved his people's undoing, or a narrowly-avoided lawsuit from David Eddings). Not that naming conventions have improved in the interim, the current monarch sounding as if his father was indecisive but unable to come up with an alternative, while the court wizard's intended name seems to have been largely obscured by a yawn.

Anyway, I've been summoned to avert the usual sort of death and destruction, and as I'm about to set off, the customary section 1 opponent turns up. As I recall, Sir Skeletor has Banish-proofed himself, which rather limits my options here, as I didn't choose the ability to send Bishops onto picket lines. Time for the obligatory starting fight, and after that I get to choose two items from the armoury and then find out what they do. While the pulp fantasy-tastic names all give some indication of function, it's still a bit daft that I don't get to make a properly informed decision. I mean, if it turns out that the Dwarven Breastplate, far from being the handiwork of the most highly skilled Dwarf armourers, is actually just a bog-standard bit of leather armour too small for me to wear, I'm going to be more than slightly peeved that I don't get to find out how rubbish it is until I've already committed myself to taking that rather than something useful.

I choose Havgar's Mace (though going by the legend that goes with it, Havgar's spiked club would have been a better choice, only that's not in stock. Unless the Mace is the spiked club - Wikipedia says that if a club has spikes, it's not a mace, but it'd be a brave man who dared to contradict the Tribe-of-Giants-Killer when he said "I'm Havgard and this is my Mace.") and the Helmet of Ventarc (which has a mildly puzzling backstory, as it was 'taken at the sacking of Ventarc', which suggests that either this helmet was worn by a whole city, or it was confiscated from some bloke named Ventarc when he lost his job, neither of which possibility makes it sound tremendously useful).

Riding out to start the quest proper, I soon encounter an angry mob, headed up by three self-styled Prophets of Doom. Tempting though it is to play War to their Death, Plague and Famine (hey, I at least have an actual horse) and resort to violence straight off, I don't want to risk the crowd getting ugly (checks illustration - uglier), so I try using my wits first off. A little fancy rhetoric convinces them that it is a proper mace. Oh yes, and that I'm on their side, so they should let me through rather than revolting. (I will not pun! I will not pun!)

It looks to me as if the next section is written in early Jongreen, an obscure dialect that looks like English but has a rather more emphatic meaning than it appears to. Let's try translating a couple of extracts...
'ancient elemental powers [...] which may be able to help you in your quest'
I make that 'massively powerful potential allies whose assistance you must obtain if you don't want to die like a dog'.
'another option open to you'
I think this is 'something you will have to do for even a slim chance of survival'.
'a momentous undertaking [that] could prove to be the way to victory'
Er, 'a probably-lethal detour from the main quest which must nevertheless be taken in order to avoid guaranteed Instant Death towards the climax'.
Time will tell how accurate my rendering is, but I reckon I've got the gist all right.

Lacking the Special Skill of Hippies, I must use Luck to avoid getting a rude awakening from the Handy Assassin. I get it to wave goodbye, and demonstrate my Holmesian grasp of deductive reasoning by figuring out that whoever sent a supernatural killer after me can call upon supernatural powers and wants me dead.

The next morning I decide to stop for a little research, and fall foul of a somewhat rubbish bit of gamebook design. Once I've asked the way to the home of the local hermit, I must immediately cease seeking information, or decide not to visit him after all. No chance to further quiz the landlady and then follow her directions - I've got to be so keen to see Herluin that I dash off the moment she gives me his address, or I don't get to see him at all. Have I just Knights of-ed myself by foolishly starting with the most significant question (because it's not as if you ever only get to ask one in FF books, except for all the times you do)?

Well, if I fail, I fail. Onwards, to death or... there doesn't appear to be an alternate option any more. Oh, well... Accepting a dinner invitation, I am immediately presented with a selection of pre-meal activities. What's the betting that I have to indulge in at least two of them, but must do so in the right order or miss out on one? I choose to listen to the minstrels before joining in the revels, and hear a verse similar to what the Arcadians sing while running a marathon (showing my age, there, but the joke won't work with the modern name).

A soothsayer offers to tell my fortune for 3GP. A bit much to pay for 'you don't have one', but I can't take it with me, so here goes nothing. And I get a bit of feminist propaganda, advice on where to get advice, and instructions to visit a location in Duelmaster: Challenge of the Magi. No, wait, that's the Citadel of the Skull, and this one's the Fortress. Bet they get each other's post all the time.

Having been advised to 'hurry now' to the Fortress, I promptly go to bed. Well, I can probably get there more quickly if I'm suitably rested before setting off. And, indeed, the very next day I embark on a boar hunt. Okay, I did sort of promise to do that before getting the message, and breaking my word could cost me Honour. But I'll definitely get going once the hunt is over. And I've finished reading that library book. Oh, and there's some washing-up that needs doing. But don't worry, as soon as I've done all that and got to the end of my training course, I'll head straight for the Fortress. Unless I still need to play Night of the Necromancer. And I should finish bringing up my kids. Once I've got some. Which shouldn't take too long once I've found a wife to help bring them into being. Let me put it this way - I should be there straight after I've reviewed the Doctor Who special. The 75th anniversary one.

So, boar-hunting. As an experienced tracker, I can see which way Old Porky went. And that the other path might lead to something more interesting. 'Interesting' being Jongreenian for 'extremely dangerous, but essential nonetheless'. Still, I do what I've come here for, and pursue the Great Boar (I want no Legend of Zagor jokes here - oops, too late!). My Lord of the Flies moment over, I investigate chanting and come across one of those no-guid Druids. He sets Richard Chamberlain on me (hang on, that's a Thornbeast, not Thorn Birds) and I get my first eltbusnu code word.

Pursuing the man responsible, I hit him a few times (something of an Unholy Strike) and take his tallisman before returning to the manor to report my triumph. After seeking advice on finding the sure-to-be-essential Spear, I resume my quest and have a run-in with a Drop-Bear. No, actually it's a group of Wilficidal maniacs. I carve up the one with 6 Stamina before he can call me an egg, and the other two are no trouble either. Taking their money and whacking great clue, I press onwards to the next town. The gates Havalok on them, but the guards let me in.

After spending the night in a tavern filled with false leads, I go off to the market in search of indispensible trinkets and Bond girls. Along the way I stop off in an interesting-looking shop, and learn that this is a seriously capitalist place. The Mistress of the Sight has been given divine insights which may provide me with information vital for the fulfilment of my quest, but the information I might require if I'm to have a shot at saving her, her home town, and the whole surrounding region is only available in return for hard cash. Having my future told does risk my receiving the message, "Oi! We told you to get to the Tower two days ago. Now get a move on, you lazy slacker!" but scrying on the bad guy is sure to end in (Palan)tears, so I risk a rebuke for dawdling. There is an implicit one, but mixed in with a couple of actual helpful hints, a fair bit of doom and gloom and the Understatement of the Century award-winning, "The way may be perilous." Now convinced of the urgency of my journey, I do some more shopping.

The market provides some generically valuable adventuring gear, and I decide to call in on the Alchemist, though his name suggests he may be a fool. After buying as much of his stock as I can afford (because I remember this bit), I solve his logic puzzle and am amply recompensed. Then I decide to leave town, but tarry awhile to watch Oddfellow's Mummers (whose local is not, alas, located at section 151). Their display is a distraction to facilitate theft, but I expose their racket and am attacked by their dragon costume. The subsequent fight is easy, and apprehending the rest of the mob isn't much trouble, either, so nobody gets to announce that "Mummers just killed a man."

It's late, and I have to attend to a neighbour's chickens in the morning, so I shall take a break here.

• Spectral Knight*
  
• Great Boar**
• Thornbeast**
• Cleric
• First Murderer
• Second Murderer
• Third Murderer
• Mummers' Dragon
• Knight
• Witch
• Horsehead*
• Pickpocket
• Oddfellow*

There's at least one post missing here.

Not sure how I managed to get sidetracked from this for over six months, but that's what happened. Still, no time at all has passed for my doubtless doomed character, so I shall pick up where I left off.

I arrive at a village which apparently had a donkey for its architect, and learn that they're having problems with a dead-pan comedian (with an emphasis on the 'dead'). Do I stick around to save them from the undead hordes, or give them a reassuring, "Just avoid getting massacred by zombies for a couple of days while I deal with this other bad guy, and the principle of trickle-down heroics should lead to your getting a fair share of the salvation in the fullness of time,"? As tricky a choice as ever.

I have Battle Tactics, so I could try and organise the rabble into a militia. Now, I don't recall any 'not choosing the right Special Skill at the start means you can't win' complaints about the book, so this isn't likely to be an essential action. However, that still leaves the question of whether it's something that would save me some inconvenience or just a side-track that'll cause me to miss out on a vital clue/McGuffin/whatever. I'll take a chance on the former. And a random roll ensues. Fun. Looks like a 'who do you end up fighting' roll rather than a 'do you survive or die hideously' one, though, so it's not as bad as it could be. Still, fighting three foes simultaneously is not what I'd call a barrel of laughs.

I survive, though, and leave what remains of my peasant army to deal with what remains of the undead army while I deal with the dead honcho. If I can find him, as there's a whole derelict village to explore. While the graveyard looks the obvious place to go Necromancer-hunting (though probably not Night of the Necromancer- hunting - and in any case, what little reading matter can be found in such places tends to be in an inconveniently non-portable format), I recall from my first attempt that I need to find something to get me past Mr Dead's security measures, so a little snooping around other parts of town might be required.

The first place I look provides a name for the villain (another bad case of nomenclature-based predeterminism), as well as a date that I note down in case I need to cite it to prove that I found said clue. It also mentions a Great Bell, so it might also be worth checking out the tower to see for whom the bell tolls before I proceed to the graveyard. Predictably, this place has bats in the belfry, and it comes as no surprise that I should be attacked when I try to silence the bell. A more pleasantly unexpected development is that, despite my lack of a number 14-St. Joseph-the-somewhat-divine-on-the-hill ballistic missile, I actually manage to shut the ringing up, and it's worth doing.

The lock-up is probably the local red herring location, serving only to get me into a purposeless fight, but in case Mr G is being devious and banking on players making that assumption, I shall check it out first. No, should have gone with the initial instinct. And so on to the graveyard. Still reluctant to take the most direct route, I find some more potentially helpful/vital information and, a little learning being a dangerous thing, get into another fight. Oh well, time to enter the unwhitewashed sepulchre.

First I have to disable the alarm system, but that doesn't take much effort. Once inside, I get an odd Special Skill check - going by the section numbers for the 'if you lack it' roll, being Unlucky has the same effect as having the Skill in question. So either this is a typo, having the Skill is bad for you at this point, or it's an instance where failing the roll is the best option (aka a Masonic leg-pull). Succeeding at the roll, I remain uncertain whether or not this is a good thing.

Onwars to a chamber with three exits, and Ancient Lore enables me to decipher the graffiti. Try the less death-related turnings first, as they could lead to loot which will prove inaccessible once I've re-deaded old corpseface. And first up I find a sarcophagus with an inscription that's begging me to use my cryptological skills. Let's see, now that combination appears four times, so it could be 'the'... So translating those symbols makes that word look like it might be 'through', and that can only be 'to', which fits the 'through' hypothesis...

And I'm out of time again.

• First Horseman
• Second Horseman**
• Third Horseman**
• Vampire Bat
• Grave-Worm*

Back to my translation, which I'm covering in a little detail in the hope of disproving an accusation that gets levelled at the book. AIUI, there's a point where failing a SKILL roll leads to discovering a key to the runes. This has led some to whinge that the book is impossible to beat unless you fail that roll. If I can make sense of this inscription just using basic cryptographical skills, that'll show that it's not necessary to find the key, so Knights of Doom need not join Dungeon of Justice in the FF Hall of Shame. Unless you find something else that's essential at the same time, but the complainers have only ever gone on about the code key, and not any Gimmick of Diewithoutitness that accompanies it.

With the help of the extra letters from 'through' I can identify what must be 'great' and 'high', so now I have every vowel. They make it possible to work out a good half dozen more words, and the additional letters those provide make finishing it off easy work. Even with the spelling mistake on the third line. What would be the word for such an error in a carved inscription? A gravo? Regardless, another gripe bites the dust.

So I have another verse of that significant song, and no hint as to whether or not it's worth risking lung damage for the ring worn by the occupant of the sarcophagus. Pity the antitoxin doesn't work against fungal spores. Oh well, nothing ventured... And that was painless.

Now for the other detour. Peace, man! And that hint causes me to wait for the spectral manifestation that occurs to conclude, lest I exorcise an ally and miss out on something crucial. A wise choice, as that nets me the second half of the information needed to avoid repeating my first death at this book. Okay, time to confront the deceased. Oh, but not until I've taken the bone(s) away from his guard dog. But once I've done that, I know the magic to get the door open. Habla 'Cadaver!' And I'm through to the Necromage and his pet freelance peace-keeping agent. Comparing this encounter (which I have never reached before) with section 38 of my contribution to the multi-authored gamebook Sylas is currently hammering into shape provides further evidence for my theory that Jonathan Green and I use the same Ideas Wholesaler.

After killing Deadboy's little friend, I get to fight Ol' Expired himself. He's undergone a distinctly random mutation, which serves little purpose other than to give some effect to one of the d6-determined phobias arbitrarily induced by that tiresome druid. Okay, so it's not Sky Lord-level non-sequiturality, but still, 'he's become half spider just to inconvenience you if you've become an arachnophobe' is still decidedly on the 'huh?' side of things. Oh, and it looks as if he has mild Razaakitis, too. Luckily for me, the two Attack Rounds he wins are separated by several that I win, so I don't have to find out what happens if he gets his hands or other appendages on me. And he's like an evil Bagpuss - when he dies, all his undead minions die too. Result.

Actions taken some time ago save me from what could be a bothersome encounter, and then the surviving villagers show their gratitude in assorted helpful ways. Having avoided an earlier detour, I think I can risk taking the time to seek the Elf-Spear, as I'm liable to need a magical weapon against the main villain, and I don't think my mace counts. But it's late on in the day, so I shall leave that side quest for tomorrow.

• Skeletal Dog
• Deathshead
• Cadaver**

Seeking the Spear brings me straight to a 'did you find all the clues in the song?' check, indicating either that having the Spear is essential or that the 'you have to fail a roll to win' crowd are even wronger. Well, I have the required number, so I continue on my way and find a dying friend. I'm willing to bet that giving him my last dose of ultra-heal won't actually prevent him from dying, but it might sustain him for long enough that he gets the whole of a vital info-dump out before croaking. Besides, it's the sort of action that garners Honour points, and I've already had a blatant hint that there's a major Honour check between me and the Spear, so I guess I'd better sacrifice up to 20 Stamina points' worth of healing to be on the safe side. What? No Honour bonus, and negligible useful information? Rip-off! Oh well, at least I get to take his Magic Sword. And his shield, in case that has any bonus aspects that the Shield Ring lacks, though I shan't try to combine the effects of both in battle. And I resume my que- no, I am nobly and honourably seeking revenge on the killers, or possibly anyone who looks like they might have had something to do with the killing.

Finding the killers is easy. Using a shield to protect myself from their arrows, on the other hand, is far too difficult, or dishonourable, or just something that never occurred to Jonathan Green. What should be an easy fight is rendered less so by my rolling an implausible number of double 1s for my Attack Strength, but I prevail. Oh, and now I get an Honour bonus, but I'd still have got it even if I hadn't wasted my best healing.

Some Elves come out with the standard 'why are you trespassing in our forest?' routine, so with a sigh I point out that their precious forest is part of the world I'm currently trying to save. Oh, and here's a check for my souvenir from the Druids. Will it be taken as proof of my Greenpeace credentials or get misinterpreted as proof that I work for Deforestation and Cruelty to Animals PLC? Oh good, these are reasonable Elves, not the 'throw you into a dungeon and then shoot you for not failing a SKILL roll' type. Yes, that does still rankle.

Anyway, resuming my search for the Spear, I ignore rustling noises in case they're caused by a Fordite Elf looking for an excuse to perforate me, and proceed until I meet a couple of plant-based beings. Fighting them is probably a bad idea, so I shan't attempt to throw the first one (turning over a new leaf), or to find out if the second one's bark is worse than his bite. And so I get accused of trespassing a-flipping-gain! All right, conifer, I'll come quietly. Which leads to an encounter with the Wodewose, or Green Men. So it's safe to cross the road, then? Maybe, but first I have to prove that I'm a friend of the forest. AGAIN. Tally up my crimes against nature - good thing I used up all my Witherwell, or they'd take me for a herbicidal maniac - and I need to roll above 1 on 2d6 to prove my innocence. Well, at least someone understands justice.

Later on, my rest is troubled by a flaming Knight's mare. Judicious use of Luck enables me to survive the fight, but the battle has left me in a pitiable state that could be easily remedied if only I hadn't wasted my Potion of Strength-equivalent on a rough Knight. And I must be off again.

• First Orc Wolf-Rider**
• Second Orc Wolf-Rider
• Third Orc Wolf-Rider*
• Knight of the Flame*****
  

And that's the last relevant post I can find. Still, better than nothing.

[marblefigure]

This had a great story, and it's a pity that it was broken and unplayable by the rules. So cool, how the Holy Strike spell worked. And all the side quests, like with the cockatrice and the Necro-Mage.

[sylas]

Apr 28, 2019 0:23:32 GMT marblefigure said:

This had a great story, and it's a pity that it was broken and unplayable by the rules. So cool, how the Holy Strike spell worked. And all the side quests, like with the cockatrice and the Necro-Mage.

In what way is it broken and unplayable? (because it isn't)

[marblefigure]

No skill stamina luck combo has a better than 50% chance of success. I believe we've established that already.

[a moderator]

That's harsh, but far from unplayable. I can name a few FF books with far worse odds.

[johnbrawn1972]

May 20, 2019 21:43:52 GMT a moderator said:

That's harsh, but far from unplayable. I can name a few FF books with far worse odds.

Citadel of Chaos?

[vastariner]

Hm, very few comments on this one. Couple here to re-open the debate:

-I HATE paragraphs where you are offered a dozen bits of equipment AND YOU HAVE TO LOOK EACH ONE UP TO SEE WHAT IT IS. It's a waste of paragraphery because it's not a proper choice, it's a redistribution of an inventory;

-the traitor can be remarkably helpful;

-I didn't really get a sense of what I was doing, at one point it's "try to recruit an army" but I wasn't quite sure why;

-for all the speedrun required to get to the key McGuffin, there's a lot of meandering off the beaten track;

-it's artificial in the extreme to hide numbers in songs and tales which a local resident ought to know anyway.

[a moderator]

So, if you acquire the iron box from Herluin's home, but don't find the key, and then the next day a cloud of Ironbane spores causes the destruction of an iron item, could you lose the box and get to claim its contents?

[Peter]

Just read this. Failed several times so I surrendered and looked up the answers. So now I know the odds, I'm done.

As others have said, great atmosphere but overly difficult in terms of gameplay.

Yes, the traitor is very helpful early on, but at least his identity becomes obvious.

Yes, I guess you could lose the iron box and therefore gain its contents, but is this something you want to do? Doesn't it contain something harmful?

And, more importantly, I guess you don't need to learn the code, as it is not specified anywhere that you have to; there is just a picture with runes on it, that you are free to look at and think about if you want to. As sylas has explained, you can figure it out by using logical deductions.

[someone]

Two things I just thought about :

1) It is forbidden to use meals (Rules) and salve (248) during battles.
It is not for using healing potions (80 and 193) and 300 indicates that you definitely can.

2) It is not forbidden to wear the breastplate (177 or 248) and the magical chainmail (85) together.
This would reduce your damage by 2 in each fight...

[sylas]

Sept 16, 2023 10:55:25 GMT someone said:

Two things I just thought about :

1) It is forbidden to use meals (Rules) and salve (248) during battles.
It is not for using healing potions (80 and 193) and 300 indicates that you definitely can.

2) It is not forbidden to wear the breastplate (177 or 248) and the magical chainmail (85) together.
This would reduce your damage by 2 in each fight...

1) By the rules (or rather lack of them) you are correct, though I never do use them in battle because I don't feel right about it. I think only Warlock of Firetop Mountain is the other book that allows this although that one feels more like an oversight. This one does too tbh.

2) This has been spotted before. Again, it's not a strategy I'd personally use even though it is allowed. It also makes many battles incredibly tedious and drawn out. Imagine rolling bad when facing Belgaroth's group of Chaos Knights and you are armed with the Spear. You'd all be toothpicking away at each other doing 1 damage per hit over 100 attack rounds!

[scouserob]

Just playing Space Assassin and there are also no rules against popping Pep Pills mid-battle in that one.

Though, quickly, shoving a pill or two in your mouth during a shooting match isn’t too hard to imagine. 💊