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Post by sj1scot on Jun 29, 2023 18:30:44 GMT
Nope the horn is not nearly worth the hassle, more evidence that Kevin is the bad guy! In the reply to some of the comments I said I feel I may have been a bit harsh on this one but its only because of how good it should have been. As Pete says house rule or fix the random rolls into tests would help and would expand the ending a lot more and it would have been excellent. What did people think of the internal art? Vastariner I did not even notice that but you are right, one of the worst FF covers for me so far.
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Post by Pete Byrdie on Jun 30, 2023 8:21:52 GMT
I think the internal artwork helped create a lot of the atmosphere of the book. There is something mysterious about the landscape explored in Masks of Mayhem. But, yeah, the cover was just a poor choice of subject.
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Post by CharlesX on Jul 10, 2023 20:39:10 GMT
Thanks for this sj1scot giving Masks Of Mayhem 4 out of 10 is probably all it deserves, because the gameplay difficulty and terse writing in particular ruin what could have been an above-average entry. More than many other FFs a reissue that altered the difficulty level would make-or-break my opinion. For me Robin Waterfield's other FF had much better writing - I don't think Masks is in the same league as his Phantoms Of Fear (by which point the ROBIN machine had presumably become self-aware enough to pass a Turing test). Things like the Horn Of Hever and perhaps more to the point the excessive random rolls (including the insane 1 in 6 one that is necessary) suggest to me Robin did not plan Masks as well as he should have done. By the way was not a fan of the artwork, to me it seemed more amateurish than effective as it just blandly did not convey anything rather than a hint of an apocalyptic or dark world. But I remember the wanting writing more than the artwork.
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Post by sj1scot on Sept 26, 2023 12:03:49 GMT
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Post by CharlesX on Sept 26, 2023 12:31:26 GMT
Thank you sj1scot as ever. Yes, Creature Of Havoc is imperfect and probably flawed despite it being one of the best gamebooks\kids' books with its deep, dark atmosphere. The eighties style high gameplay difficulty is almost certainly excessive, for example I think i would have rerolled a starting character who had Luck 7 not wanting to fail a number of arbitrary\random Luck tests as you have. But as you say there was no good reason for the Vapour Of Tongues to be scrambled as it was.
Well, the evidence is the aforementioned scrambling of Vapour of Tongues and where he seemingly deliberately has the signposts directing you to the wrong references, unless perhaps the editors got that wrong too. If Steve did indeed mean to do it as a deliberate trick I would say that would suggest Steve was misguided and even an idiot rathe than being clever.. Whether that's the road we're going down..
The ending where Marr's creatures just serve you is uncharacteristically upbeat and very probably incorrect even where I've tried to defend it elsewhere on this site; could there not even be a sentence or two of 'cheap' explanation. Maybe at least 'You feel a loud tremor as Marr's magic over his creatures is broken. With him dead, his spell of service passes to his slayer and his brainless creatures will now serve yourself instead.' If not a paragraph or so of writing, which you deserve instead of this rushed ending.
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Post by pip on Sept 26, 2023 14:49:26 GMT
As I've stated elsewhere on the forum, I've originally played a fixed version of Creature of Havoc with the missing required phrase thankfully inserted. And I'm glad I did (otherwise, who could realistically figure that out?). I'm also on the "this was an editing error" team. I know SJ has remained tight-lipped about it, but I can understand why; he couldn't exactly say "yeah, my book is unplayable because of an editing error, buy it anyway, lol.".
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Post by a moderator on Sept 26, 2023 15:44:38 GMT
The business with the signpost is too consistent to be an editorial blunder. The Puffin edition of the book included a map of the region, which would enable the reader to check and discover that the signpost had been rotated to make the arms point in the wrong directions. Even if you don't have the map, the knowledge that you've just come north from Coven should alert you to the fact that something's not right when the signpost says Dree is to the south and Coven is in the north-west. The clues are there for observant readers - unlike with the missing textual cue for the secret door.
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Post by sj1scot on Sept 26, 2023 16:52:04 GMT
Hmm I was so engrossed in the story of the ending I forgot you are still on the Galleykeep with a horde of enemies at the door. The same horde that easily kill you if you go through any of the other options so why wouldn't they be able to now?
I did not even notice the signs when I was mapping it out apart from one part where I thought I should end up in Dree but ended up at the Training Grounds. I just put it down to my poor mapping skills and being very tired haha. But I could see as Greenspine says how that could be deliberate and something they would do to disorientate people who have escaped the mines or invading forces, its happened in real life before.
I think as Pip says that he has played a version with the reference fixed for the secret door (assuming the Wizard one?) proves beyond a shadow of a doubt it was an accident.
Whats the thoughts on Grog?
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Post by a moderator on Sept 27, 2023 1:17:50 GMT
I think as Pip says that he has played a version with the reference fixed for the secret door (assuming the Wizard one?) proves beyond a shadow of a doubt it was an accident. The first Wizard reissue made a couple of changes to the text. On the positive side, the phrase to indicate the presence of a secret door was added in the right place. However, the rules were amended to remove the damage reduction provided by your scaly skin. The second Wizard reissue managed to combine the worst of both earlier editions, re-removing the trigger phrase but keeping the bit about hits in battle causing you 2 Stamina. I've never looked at the Scholastic edition to see how much of a mess that is, but I know from others' complaints here that Rhino Man 29 has been omitted from the picture that should make it possible to encounter him. And given Scholastic's reputation, it wouldn't surprise me if the book also fires pins into your eyes if you ever roll a double three. The way he gets involved in various situations is quite a neat gimmick, but for me he never had the same impact that Throm or Mungo did.
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Post by scouserob on Sept 27, 2023 6:01:55 GMT
I like Grognag but he seems to get a little lost in my memories.
I think that may be because the majority of times I visited the locations in which you can travel together, I was alone.
I like his initial fight scene and the final leap a lot. It is the bits in between that I struggle to remember anything of. As a game mechanic he is fantastic and you do read his sections with extra care due to them being secret. Though, again, perhaps this made me concentrate on the new, probably game beating, aspects of those paragraphs rather than any growing camaraderie between the two of you.
I didn’t feel the connection to him that I did with Throm, Mungo, Redswift, Stubbs and Goose. I’ll take him over that clingy, magic inhibiting Jann though.
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Post by CharlesX on Sept 27, 2023 14:05:28 GMT
The way he gets involved in various situations is quite a neat gimmick, but for me he never had the same impact that Throm or Mungo did. Throm was very touching because you knew him across several paragraphs and ended up personally killing him (so, unlike Mungo). I liked Grog, but isn't it funny the way your FF companions sometimes die like redshirts instead of everyone being alive at the end like a Hollywood movie? Although Shadow Of The Giants is more woke.
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Post by CharlesX on Sept 27, 2023 14:08:19 GMT
I like Grognag but he seems to get a little lost in my memories. I think that may be because the majority of times I visited the locations in which you can travel together, I was alone. I like his initial fight scene and the final leap a lot. It is the bits in between that I struggle to remember anything of. As a game mechanic he is fantastic and you do read his sections with extra care due to them being secret. Though, again, perhaps this made me concentrate on the new, probably game beating, aspects of those paragraphs rather than any growing camaraderie between the two of you. I didn’t feel the connection to him that I did with Throm, Mungo, Redswift, Stubbs and Goose. I’ll take him over that clingy, magic inhibiting Jann though. As a puzzle game mechanic Grog did a job very well, it took young me a while before realising I was supposed to enter his side in his fight, and just as long to work out how to correctly use him in the Toad-Men encounter.
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Post by slloyd14 on Sept 27, 2023 15:03:24 GMT
I like Grognag but he seems to get a little lost in my memories. I think that may be because the majority of times I visited the locations in which you can travel together, I was alone. I like his initial fight scene and the final leap a lot. It is the bits in between that I struggle to remember anything of. As a game mechanic he is fantastic and you do read his sections with extra care due to them being secret. Though, again, perhaps this made me concentrate on the new, probably game beating, aspects of those paragraphs rather than any growing camaraderie between the two of you. I didn’t feel the connection to him that I did with Throm, Mungo, Redswift, Stubbs and Goose. I’ll take him over that clingy, magic inhibiting Jann though. As a puzzle game mechanic Grog did a job very well, it took young me a while before realising I was supposed to enter his side in his fight, and just as long to work out how to correctly use him in the Toad-Men encounter. Yes. I was so caught up in the toad men encounter that I forgot to check that the number ended with 7. Which is funny because when you turn to 235, the first sentence tells you that you forgot about Grog.
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Post by sj1scot on Nov 6, 2023 19:21:22 GMT
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Post by CharlesX on Nov 6, 2023 19:44:58 GMT
Wish I could write reviews as well as you sj1scot! Yes, Beneath Nightmare Castle has a bit Emperor's New Clothes\Elephant in the Room where the artwork, instant deaths and even some of the enemies are not above criticism. A lot of the player's view will depend on how they enjoy alternate paths, as the majority of the book is taken up by non-true-path\incorrect routes which to me is a point or two against the book - to me, it's more technically accomplished than the player might enjoy. And Beneath Nightmare Castle comes across as influenced by Lovecraft, Stoker and Shelley (either or both of them), so if you're not into those you wouldn't like Beneath Nightmare Castle, although most would!
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Post by sj1scot on Nov 7, 2023 18:00:47 GMT
Thanks Charles, very kind of you to say but I am sure you could easily do it. I really wanted to like this one as I like all of Lovecraft, Stoker and Shelly. If it had kept be as hooked as the start in the town did this would have been right up there.
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Post by sj1scot on Nov 16, 2023 16:45:14 GMT
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Post by CharlesX on Nov 16, 2023 17:04:28 GMT
Thank you sj1scot for this well-written review. To me 5 out of 10 is generous; not sure everyone else would agree this is a better-than-average gamebook ruined by its difficulty, with its many Livingstonianisms (shopping lists, constant tests, lack of variables\linearity), dark atmosphere and probably more.
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Post by sj1scot on Nov 16, 2023 17:21:16 GMT
John Sibbeck's art deserved more so I couldn't bring myself to give it a 3 or a 4. Its frustrating though as the story is there, the baddie is there, the art is great. Just the design is terrible.
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Post by Pete Byrdie on Nov 17, 2023 22:17:06 GMT
So, John Sibbick just sucks at illustrating golems, huh!
EDIT I'm assuming there's only one John Sibbick who's an illustrator. A quick look on the Internet shows an extraordinarily accomplished and talented paleoartist whose fantasy work is mostly in association with Games Workshop, which I suppose includes FF pretty much. I've definitely seen his work frequently and it's excellent. And I remember being especially taken with the artwork of Crypt of the Sorcerer back in the day, and again reliving it through this review. I really should pay more attention to the illustrators of both fantasy and paleo books, they do an incredible job, and John Sibbick seems one of the best. But, going by the cover of Masks of Mayhem and the clay golem in Crypt of the Sorcerer, he should probably stay clear of golems.
I always loved playing Crypt back in the day. To take a phrase from Vag, I 'felt' this book. I never completed it, of course, but without the aid of the Internet, and I was never one for cheating, I always assumed that was my failure. I don't think it really occurred to me in those days that the book might be designed that way. It was hardly the first book I'd failed to complete. (I don't think I ever got out of the dungeon in Creature of Havoc.) But the story itself was involved. But yes, the flaws in the book are huge. Enough has been said about the difficulty, but the increase in random locations for a ridiculous number of essential items and pieces of info break the world if you give it the slightest amount of thought. And the IL technique of hiding linearity behind paths that lead to dead ends, deaths and loops back to the main path, I suppose in order to create a longer, more epic feeling true path, is well established by the time we reach Crypt, but is probably nowhere more egregious. Crypt has a lot of novel encounters and ideas, but it violates so much of what we play gamebooks for.
Great review, as always. Look forward to the next one.
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Post by sj1scot on Nov 18, 2023 20:59:56 GMT
Thanks Pete! I completely missed the Golem link!
I was the same when I had it on load from the library, really liked the book but just thought it was me doing something wrong.
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Post by sj1scot on Jan 6, 2024 23:39:00 GMT
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Post by Pete Byrdie on Jan 7, 2024 13:41:25 GMT
Another great review. My memory of Star Strider is I was fascinated and excited by the world-building, but that feeling lost steam early as I went about making notes and mapping.
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Post by CharlesX on Jan 7, 2024 16:21:41 GMT
Great review. Agree Star Strider's cover in particular and other artwork are good. As you say some concepts are thrilling and the background is well-written, but when you play the gamebook, you are far too often presented with black-and-white choices without a clue which is the right way. Despite some humour the writing is pedestrian and disappointing as is the gameplay, so 2 out of 10 is what this gamebook deserves. Only read if you've read the review:
A janitor in a sci-fi setting definitely makes me think of Futurama's Scruffy.
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Post by sj1scot on May 1, 2024 21:33:49 GMT
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Post by sj1scot on May 17, 2024 23:20:44 GMT
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Post by Pete Byrdie on May 18, 2024 6:37:57 GMT
Congrats on the new job buddy. I'm looking forward to reading your reviews later today.
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Post by CharlesX on May 18, 2024 8:29:32 GMT
Really good review! Weirdly I prefer the second half to the first, just because it's creative and well-written. Probably the reason it seems like it doesn't fit it is because second half of the book was changed after Puffin objected to Midnight Rogue being a Fighting Fantasy book with little fighting or actually risk of any kind on the true path. I get that because a fantasy book like Starship Traveller or Gates Of Death, even if well-written (Midnight Rogue has above-average prose, not phenomenal), would not have been that brilliant in my opinion. Perhaps Graeme could have written a longer FF with both elements, or written more FF like you mention. What I like in the first half are the memorable instant deaths where you can approach Nicodemus out-of-the-blue and get turned into a toad, or storm Lord Azzur's Palace!
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Post by sj1scot on May 18, 2024 10:46:07 GMT
Thanks CharlesX, that is a great insight as I did not know that Puffin objected, you can really see it though in the book. Would have been a great plot for my background section haha. Thats what I like about FF, something for everyone. I liked first half where you preferred second and I can totally see why.
And 100% the Nicodemus death is the best! I also like how you get teased for a bit before the inevitable deaths. All that effort to get over Lord Azzur's palace wall, only for all the guards to be waiting for you at the bottom!
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Post by sj1scot on Jul 7, 2024 19:58:36 GMT
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