Night dragon vs legend of zagor

[tyrion]

I think these two books are similar, in that you have a big bad that can be beaten if you find the right items and there are hubs (northern allansia in night dragon, castle levels in zagor), around which there are smaller hubs. 

However, night dragon seems better well regarded than legend of zagor. I mean, I like them both, but what are your thoughts?

Same with the vampire books, island of the undead, master of chaos and tower of destruction. Do you like this sort of gameplay? Or is it the writing that clinches it?

[stevendoig]

I'm not wordy, but my single strong memory of both books is how they go on and on and on, and if you were to die in them it was a real thought having to start again.

So, aye - they are pretty similar!

[kieran]

I'm not a huge fan of the hub-and-spokes approach as it can make playthroughs very long and replays a chore. However, I think it can be done well. Stealer of Souls disguises its hub design well to the extent you will probably move on to a new hub without realising, Vault of the Vampire has many options beyond what order to explore the castle in, and Master of Chaos limits exploration with its Notoriety score. However, I think Keith Martin got a bit lazy after this in his designs, pretty much encouraging the reader to explore everywhere in detail and punishing readers for not doing so in the right order. I think Island of the Undead is saved slightly by its excellent mystery-building and Revenge of the Vampire mixes hubs with more conventional gameplay but I find Tower of Destruction, Night Dragon and Legend of Zagor all very tedious. LoZ is probably the worst because it's all just one setting and its filled with long drawn-out combats.

Demons of the Deep kinda uses the format, but you have to visit the spokes in the order listed to see them all and there's plenty of interesting and quirky stuff to do along each one. I feel Night of the Necromancer and Crystal of Storms would have been more fun without going down the hub-and-spokes route.

[The Count]

The advantage of hubs is that they give areas to explore and visit without always leading to a penalties or an indication that you have make a poor choice, and replays allow you to try visiting the various locations in different order. Some, like Master of Chaos and Moonrunner have triggered restrictions to where you can go adding a puzzle element. Others like Tower of Destruction need a linear path to get the best ending.

While I like the hub design, there are also linear adventures that are as enjoyable, and there are some that have essentially a linear structure but still have various routes through such as Phantoms and Shadow Warriors.

The Keith Martin books are generally very long with a lot packed into references, and a lot of references packed into each adventure - and (editing / playtesting issues aside) are well written and constructed books.

Compare them to Livingstone books of which 90% are linear slogs with poor writing, gaping plot holes, and constant references to his previous FF books and his own hobbies - pretty dull and unenjoyable.

Then there are the Green efforts - the first four are well written but torturous to play due to being more linear than Livingstone with harder fights and needing both max stats and failing a test to win, the last ones overcorrect this excessively with hubs and randomness so become as dull and dreary as.

On the other hand, Slaves benefits from being incredibly tight and linear as finding the true path takes a lot of reading and replaying to figure out, but the book is so well written that this does not matter.

Then there are Crystal and Gates which have hub designs that make you visit almost the entire book - which stops them being enjoyable.

In respect to the two books highlighted: I find Night Dragon drags on a bit too much so by the time the inevitable actual final boss appears, I'm fed up - despite the story being well written, the adventure well constructed and the book penned with a great level of detail and atmosphere. I find the idea of having to thoroughly explore the castle in Legend much more appealing so it feels like less of a slog as you don't have to beat all the mini bosses or find all the chests (although they do help), and having four different options for a character means you can miss the magical weapon for said character and each has a slightly different route through. Where it becomes tedious is the special attacks of Zagor, but the idea of having to dispose of his body in time makes for a nice change to having another slightly less dangerous fight pop up out of nowhere. However, if Legend was a standard FF book, it could be incredibly tedious in replaying.


Ultimately, the plot, writing and construction all combine to make a great book.

[drmanhattan]

I am coming round on the idea of hubs but I think there has to be some dangerous/plain bad options otherwise I am always going to just pick everything (I mean in later attempts I would want to do that just to map out the whole thing, so again the hub format would make that easier). I think its OK to have some bad choices or to have some kind of timer or method that causes a problem if you just cycle through everything without thinking. ANd then if hubs can be interlinked with branching linear paths thats probably good to get a bit of both.

[petch]

Jun 13, 2021 13:21:02 GMT The Count said:

The advantage of hubs is that they give areas to explore and visit without always leading to a penalties or an indication that you have make a poor choice, and replays allow you to try visiting the various locations in different order. 

Yeah, I like KM's design choices for pretty much the same reason. He also tends to litter his books with various combat-modifying items and healing items, so by changing up the order you can try using them in different areas to see how it changes the gameplay. Whilst his writing isn't always as evocative as some of the other authors, I think he pushed the role playing and gameplay potential of gamebooks arguably better than anybody.

As for the question posed by the thread title: Night Dragon easily for me. I understand the criticisms of it feeling overlong and a bit of a slog to some, but I found it gripping and epic, and the presence of the big bad was felt throughout the subquests with the changes to the land and the roaming of the Stalkers, so despite it being a long journey to face your quarry its threat never felt far away.

[Charles X.]

Night Dragon doesn't require as much number-crunching with names, different characters, special items and tower chests. I think the Night Dragon Skull is a bit anticlimactic, and in other aspects such as the Night Dragon fight LIZ is superior, but generally I dislike the overlong feeling of LOZ. It's almost all combat, in the same castle. The writing and artwork isn't half as evocative as Night Dragon.

[nathanh]

Two of my favourites. Difficult to choose between them. I like Legend of Zagor's structure, it feels more realistic than most other gamebook dungeon crawls. I like Keith Martin's gamebook structures a lot in general, I think since they allow a lot of exploration every attempt as long as your combat powers are reasonable. Any instant-failure paragraphs are fairly deep in the quest and usually aren't arbitrary. I also enjoy optimisation so I like spending time looking at my Legend of Zagor map and planning the best route. Legend of Zagor and Night Dragon are both pretty high on the list of gamebooks that are good for that sort of exercise, as is Master of Chaos (I'd say only Stormslayer does this better). Night Dragon is a bit more accessible in that you can just sit down and play it and probably do well from memory, whereas Legend of Zagor you really need to optimise your path especially if you choose a weaker character.

So it is quite close for me, probably Night Dragon shades it because I'm still salty I can't play as Jallarial in Legend.

[sylas]

Aug 10, 2021 20:53:29 GMT nathanh said:

Two of my favourites. Difficult to choose between them. I like Legend of Zagor's structure, it feels more realistic than most other gamebook dungeon crawls. I like Keith Martin's gamebook structures a lot in general, I think since they allow a lot of exploration every attempt as long as your combat powers are reasonable. Any instant-failure paragraphs are fairly deep in the quest and usually aren't arbitrary. I also enjoy optimisation so I like spending time looking at my Legend of Zagor map and planning the best route. Legend of Zagor and Night Dragon are both pretty high on the list of gamebooks that are good for that sort of exercise, as is Master of Chaos (I'd say only Stormslayer does this better). Night Dragon is a bit more accessible in that you can just sit down and play it and probably do well from memory, whereas Legend of Zagor you really need to optimise your path especially if you choose a weaker character.

So it is quite close for me, probably Night Dragon shades it because I'm still salty I can't play as Jallarial in Legend.

Same here, even though Jallarial was deliberately added to the Z chronicles as the token female protagonist. She'd have been a more interesting choice if included in LoZ mainly due to Sallazar having almost the same background as Braxus.

[nathanh]

I don't remember much about the Zagor Chronicles but my hazy recollection is that she was the only character of substance in the series, quite amusing for someone just added as token female representation.

[jmisbest]

Aug 10, 2021 21:26:47 GMT sylas said:

Aug 10, 2021 20:53:29 GMT nathanh said:

Two of my favourites. Difficult to choose between them. I like Legend of Zagor's structure, it feels more realistic than most other gamebook dungeon crawls. I like Keith Martin's gamebook structures a lot in general, I think since they allow a lot of exploration every attempt as long as your combat powers are reasonable. Any instant-failure paragraphs are fairly deep in the quest and usually aren't arbitrary. I also enjoy optimisation so I like spending time looking at my Legend of Zagor map and planning the best route. Legend of Zagor and Night Dragon are both pretty high on the list of gamebooks that are good for that sort of exercise, as is Master of Chaos (I'd say only Stormslayer does this better). Night Dragon is a bit more accessible in that you can just sit down and play it and probably do well from memory, whereas Legend of Zagor you really need to optimise your path especially if you choose a weaker character.

So it is quite close for me, probably Night Dragon shades it because I'm still salty I can't play as Jallarial in Legend.

Same here, even though Jallarial was deliberately added to the Z chronicles as the token female protagonist. She'd have been a more interesting choice if included in LoZ mainly due to Sallazar having almost the same background as Braxus.

When you say that Sallazar has almost the same background as Braxus are you referring to the fact that Braxus has the same name as A Great Hero of Ancient Times and wants to 1 day be A Great Hero and Sallazar has the same name as A Great Wizard of Ancient Times and wants to 1 day be A Great Wizard?

[kieran]

Aug 10, 2021 20:53:29 GMT nathanh said:

I like Keith Martin's gamebook structures a lot in general, I think since they allow a lot of exploration every attempt as long as your combat powers are reasonable. Any instant-failure paragraphs are fairly deep in the quest and usually aren't arbitrary.

Apart from in Revenge of the Vampire which has quite a few "oh, come on!" moments.

[sylas]

Aug 11, 2021 1:08:37 GMT jmisbest said:

Aug 10, 2021 21:26:47 GMT sylas said:

Same here, even though Jallarial was deliberately added to the Z chronicles as the token female protagonist. She'd have been a more interesting choice if included in LoZ mainly due to Sallazar having almost the same background as Braxus.

When you say that Sallazar has almost the same background as Braxus are you referring to the fact that Braxus has the same name as A Great Hero of Ancient Times and wants to 1 day be A Great Hero and Sallazar has the same name as A Great Wizard of Ancient Times and wants to 1 day be A Great Wizard?

Exactly that. Really not that difficult to come up with a completely different backstory.