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Post by a moderator on Mar 26, 2022 14:27:52 GMT
I can assure you that this is not the case. It takes me much less time to write a gamebook like 'TWAS, or RONIN 47, than it does to adapt a story like DRACULA. You haven't assured me. No matter how long it takes you to "adapt" a story like Dracula or Alice, someone else has already done the hard graft of the world building, background, plot, character creation and storyline. If you find adapting someone else's work hard, that is because you should - and lack the creativity to create something unique. Having read your FF efforts which show a great creative mind, I can only conclude that you couldn't be arsed trying to build your own gamebook universe so pillaged the tales of your betters. Citing your crapmaus effort doesn't help your case as that was another example of you taking a story and character created by someone else and ramming it into another format for your own personal gain. Please reread the first few Forum Rules. You can disagree with someone, you can dislike things they've written, but if you're posting here, you may not express that disagreement or dislike in a manner that is disrespectful of the person.
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Jonathan Green
Squire
Posts: 49
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by Jonathan Green on Mar 29, 2022 7:30:54 GMT
I can assure you that this is not the case. It takes me much less time to write a gamebook like 'TWAS, or RONIN 47, than it does to adapt a story like DRACULA. You haven't assured me. No matter how long it takes you to "adapt" a story like Dracula or Alice, someone else has already done the hard graft of the world building, background, plot, character creation and storyline. If you find adapting someone else's work hard, that is because you should - and lack the creativity to create something unique. Having read your FF efforts which show a great creative mind, I can only conclude that you couldn't be arsed trying to build your own gamebook universe so pillaged the tales of your betters. Citing your crapmaus effort doesn't help your case as that was another example of you taking a story and character created by someone else and ramming it into another format for your own personal gain. I find your comments offensive and rude. There is clearly no point in continuing this discussion. I'm done.
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Post by philsadler on Mar 29, 2022 7:36:25 GMT
They're not flattering comments, but I've heard a lot worse. I guess that's The trouble with freedom of speech: 'You have to listen to things you don't like' (Paraphrasing Orwell).
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Jonathan Green
Squire
Posts: 49
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by Jonathan Green on Mar 29, 2022 7:49:55 GMT
They're not flattering comments, but I've heard a lot worse. I guess that's The trouble with freedom of speech: 'You have to listen to things you don't like' (Paraphrasing Orwell). Telling someone "you couldn't be arsed trying to build your own gamebook universe so pillaged the tales of your betters" goes beyond unflattering. I have tons of ideas for original gamebooks that I will never get round to writing because - you know what? - ones linked to an existing well-known franchise sell better. And do you know what else I have? A mortgage that needs paying and a family to feed.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,547
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Mar 29, 2022 9:00:10 GMT
They're not flattering comments, but I've heard a lot worse. I guess that's The trouble with freedom of speech: 'You have to listen to things you don't like' (Paraphrasing Orwell). Telling someone "you couldn't be arsed trying to build your own gamebook universe so pillaged the tales of your betters" goes beyond unflattering. I have tons of ideas for original gamebooks that I will never get round to writing because - you know what? - ones linked to an existing well-known franchise sell better. And do you know what else I have? A mortgage that needs paying and a family to feed. Plus, a good adaptation or pastiche requires a fair bit of skill anyway - being limited in your creativity can be something of a handicap that requires a lot of talent to overcome. Stephanie Meyer can make her vampires sparkle if she wants because it's her world and her rules. Someone writing a Dracula pastiche though is limited to the rules Bram Stoker created and has to work within them to tell a fresh and engaging story or introduce a new perspective. On a similar note, Forgotten Realms author Erin M Evans wrote an interesting blog post a few years back about some of the difficulties of writing "shared world" fiction and how those who blast it as a lack of creativity or talent on the author's part aren't aware of all that's involved in the process: www.boomtron.com/erin-m-evans-shared-world-fantasy/
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Post by philsadler on Mar 29, 2022 9:49:26 GMT
Don't be so sensitive? I've been called a million times worse on a million occasions, until I learnt not to care. The only alternative would be to get rid of all freedom of speech. Either that or just ignore people.
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Post by petch on Mar 29, 2022 11:04:13 GMT
I'm sure Jon is able to take constructive criticism, but as for myself I think it's a bit of a shame that he has taken the time to visit our forum to interact with us to be faced with posts that crossed the line to disrespectful comments directed personally at him.
If you're not too put off Jon, if you take the time to look elsewhere on here I think you'll see that the general consensus around these parts is that your gamebooks are some of the most well-written and engaging entries to the FF series, along with some more constructive comments (chiefly around the formidable difficulty of your early stuff - but I note that you've already acknowledged on twitter that you have learned a lot since then!).
I haven't got around to reading any of the ACE gamebooks yet - they're sitting on my bookshelf waiting to be read but work/home demands are on the heavy side at the moment and I want to have enough time put aside to be able to enjoy them properly (along with Dave Morris's Heart of Ice for that matter, which I have been meaning to getting around to read for ages!).
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Post by a moderator on Mar 29, 2022 13:05:12 GMT
The only alternative would be to get rid of all freedom of speech. Don't exaggerate. It's perfectly possible to dissent and disagree without resorting to insults and abuse. The forum's rules restrict the 'right' to be rude about or to other people. If you're participating in any discussions here, you must accept slight limits to your freedom of speech. Anyone who is unwilling to accept those mild restrictions should go elsewhere: there are plenty of online cesspools where anything goes, so you shouldn't have much trouble finding somewhere to spew the bile that is not permitted here.
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Post by philsadler on Mar 29, 2022 16:27:31 GMT
I think you might be confusing me with The Count. Anyway, 'I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it'.
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Post by vastariner on Mar 29, 2022 17:18:34 GMT
I think you might be confusing me with The Count. Anyway, 'I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it'. But that right does not extend to all manifestations of expression.
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Post by a moderator on Mar 29, 2022 17:36:22 GMT
Either you accept the rules of this forum, in which case you waive your right to say certain types of thing on this forum, or you don't post here at all.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Mar 29, 2022 18:00:33 GMT
... but as for myself I think it's a bit of a shame that he has taken the time to visit our forum to interact with us to be faced with posts that crossed the line to disrespectful comments directed personally at him. And that is a real pity isn't it? Jon Green is one of the most prolific of the FF authors, has done a great deal of research into the books themselves and has a direct knowledge of both the past gamebook industry and the present one. I was quite looking forward to what he might have to say about all sorts of things...
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Post by CharlesX on Mar 29, 2022 23:14:21 GMT
I couldn't disagree more with philsadler here, and I think he's twisting Orwell to suit his purpose (although randomly citing Orwell Voltaire etc. is pretentious anyway). Orwell would have said something like "liberty is the right to tell people what they don't want to hear". Saying abusive and harmful things doesn't get us anywhere in that regard, and that's why we can't use certain racist rhetoric or teach damaging versions of events (like they're doing in Russia at present). I feel sorry for Jon Green, he barely spoke for almost 10 years, was always courteous, even though some of us didn't believe he was THE gamebook writer Jon Green, and then The Count had an immature rant to his face. I think it's Jon Green's "freedom of speech" that is being infringed upon, because he can't enjoy this forum for fear of being given rude feed-back.
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Post by philsadler on Mar 30, 2022 7:04:12 GMT
I haven't insulted JG as far as I know (you'll have to ask him), that was The Count. He said some rather unfortunate things, which is why I don't really read him much. In fact, I think I'll stop reading this thread in case some grown men feel threatened.
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Post by a moderator on Mar 30, 2022 9:53:00 GMT
I haven't insulted JG as far as I know (you'll have to ask him), that was The Count. He said some rather unfortunate things, which is why I don't really read him much. In fact, I think I'll stop reading this thread in case some grown men feel threatened. We know you didn't make the insulting posts. Nevertheless, you are the person who's acting as if asking people not to make insulting posts is a gross infringement of their human rights. The Count remains free to say whatever he wants about anybody on other parts of the internet and in the physical world. Even here, he is still able to indicate his dislike of any given book so long as he does so without being rude about the author(s). If that offends you... Well, I imagine you must find it even more objectionable that other parts of the world are even more restrictive, and respectfully suggest that you direct your efforts towards trying to make a change in the places that are genuinely oppressive.
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Post by The Count on Mar 30, 2022 14:09:12 GMT
It was never my intention to insult Jon, so I apologise if he found the rather blunt delivery of my critique offensive. As I have said before (even in that post) and will say again, he has shown great creativity before, and I enjoy his story writing. Just not this series where it is other peoples stories. Much in the same way I don't like remakes and reboots of films / tv series / books etc. There is only one gamebook author (and I use that term very loosely because its name is plastered over at least one gamebook) that I would actually want to insult - and indeed did before being asked to edit the post in question.
At the same time, someone having a less than fawning opinion of a book or series does not impede on anyone elses freedom of speech. If I can still post here after being called *checks post which is still there* an "anti-white self hating racist" for referencing a ridiculous comment made by some z lister, then so can Jon.
I shall however not venture into this thread again.
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aggsol
Wanderer
Bored...
Posts: 95
Favourite Gamebook Series: Lone Wolf
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Post by aggsol on Apr 9, 2022 9:45:54 GMT
No, I get ya, as I had a similar feeling myself. It would've been far better to simply have the reader play as Alice instead of controlling her actions. I'm not sure way it was written this way. Maybe Jon was hesitant to limit readers into playing as a little girl and felt that you controlling her would have a broader appeal. Thing is, in this day and age, I would like to think we're past that kind of belief that the hero must be male. Just my opinion anyway; it might have been a whole other reason behind it. You are spot on! I did feel that the book would have greater appeal if Alice was a character you directed, as you do in many computer game, rather that actually YOU, as in the FF adventures. Since then, of course, I've grown in confidence, which is why in OZ you become Dorothy, or the Wicked Witch of the West, and in NEVERLAND you are Wendy Darling or Tiger Lily. However, some readers have complained that by having female characters, it limits how much of the content they can enjoy. When I asked one complainer, "Why wouldn't you want to play as a bad-ass sabretooth-riding warrior like Tiger Lily?" he replied with the terse comment, "Because I'm not a girl!" There is this triangle where the "art" in gamebooks lies IMO. 1) The coming for the literature angle, being fiction, presenting a story. 2) The game, the decision making, the interactive nature, the non-linear aspect 3) the roleplaying, the YOU, character creation. A good gamebook has all three but you can go with just two of them.
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aggsol
Wanderer
Bored...
Posts: 95
Favourite Gamebook Series: Lone Wolf
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Post by aggsol on Apr 9, 2022 9:48:25 GMT
Don't be so sensitive? I've been called a million times worse on a million occasions, until I learnt not to care. The only alternative would be to get rid of all freedom of speech. Either that or just ignore people. Freedom of speech is a defensive tool against the state. It is not a license to be rude or to force you opinion on anyone.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Apr 10, 2022 9:30:30 GMT
Freedom of speech is a defensive tool against the state. Yes. And not just against the state, which though powerful, at least is subject to some degree of democratic accountability. (You can theoretically vote them out!) Unlike what I'd call certain special interest groups, powerful individuals with their non-governmental organisations, foundations and trends which seek to influence our society directly through national politics or more indirectly through various media. In my opinion in the current times, this is where freedom of speech is most needed as a defensive tool. In the 'cultural' sphere rather than the purely party-political. And as a tool against the unelected. But as for these boards, yes there are rules. Speaking for myself, I have had to (very rarely!) bite my tongue on occasion. Or I might have written something out.. relooked at it... and then decide to rewrite it or delete it. Whether this is self-censorship or rather is fitting my speech and conduct to suit the forum... maybe it's a bit of both. I am becoming more and more of a 'free speech absolutist' these days but I do my best to recognise where and when it is appropriate to speak as I wish. If these boards became a free for all it would become a bedlam and would attract exactly the wrong sort of commenters. Political activists or 'drive-by' posters hurling contentious words about to see the reaction; sides would be taken across all sorts of political and cultural battlelines... and we'd lose sight of what the forum is for: it is a place that us together as people who enjoy gamebooks and interactive fiction whatever our other beliefs.
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Post by terrysalt on Apr 10, 2022 22:29:39 GMT
So, ACE Gamebooks, huh. They sure are a thing to discuss! I've only read the Alice in Wonderland and Wizard of Oz ones but I'm slowly making my way through the series. I like the idea of having multiple different characters to play as. Though I'm now wondering if any of the other books have secret characters like the wizard and witch.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,744
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Apr 10, 2022 22:47:35 GMT
So, ACE Gamebooks, huh. They sure are a thing to discuss! I've only read the Alice in Wonderland and Wizard of Oz ones but I'm slowly making my way through the series. I like the idea of having multiple different characters to play as. Though I'm now wondering if any of the other books have secret characters like the wizard and witch. In Neverland there is an option to play as the Croc and in Beowulf as Grendel.
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Post by terrysalt on Apr 10, 2022 23:10:03 GMT
Ah, good to know. Thanks. Is there a way to find the stats for these secret characters? I only knew about the wizard and witch because you posted the details in the book thread. Is there an online resource I can check that lists them all?
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Apr 11, 2022 8:23:07 GMT
I like the idea of having multiple different characters to play as. His Dracula book is good for that - you can swap between characters throughout the story, it's not a case of pick one and stick with it.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,744
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Apr 11, 2022 22:29:39 GMT
Ah, good to know. Thanks. Is there a way to find the stats for these secret characters? I only knew about the wizard and witch because you posted the details in the book thread. Is there an online resource I can check that lists them all? The stats are given in the book: Croc is just presented on its illustration page, and Grendel's stats are at the back of Beowulf.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,744
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Apr 11, 2022 22:41:04 GMT
I like the idea of having multiple different characters to play as. His Dracula book is good for that - you can swap between characters throughout the story, it's not a case of pick one and stick with it. One unmentioned 'error' for Dracula is that if you play as multiple characters, you end up having far too many uses of The Pen Is Mightier (essentially an autowin combat ability); i.e. using all 3 hunters will give you 9 uses of it! It's pretty hard to fail if using the rules as written. A more logical solution is to keep the ability uses at 3 no matter how many characters you play. It makes the book more fun and the difficulty much more balanced. It's not officially a part of the errata but it's one that makes the most sense.
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Post by terrysalt on Apr 12, 2022 3:40:58 GMT
Ah, good to know. Thanks. Is there a way to find the stats for these secret characters? I only knew about the wizard and witch because you posted the details in the book thread. Is there an online resource I can check that lists them all? The stats are given in the book: Croc is just presented on its illustration page, and Grendel's stats are at the back of Beowulf. Ah, nice. Thanks for that.
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Jonathan Green
Squire
Posts: 49
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by Jonathan Green on Apr 23, 2024 18:24:14 GMT
Shakespeare Vs. Cthulhu: What Dreams May Come is now funding on Kickstarter. Please check it out and spread the link far and wide. “I can no other answer make but thanks, and thanks…”
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Post by hallucination on Oct 24, 2024 20:12:36 GMT
In case anyone's interested and hasn't noticed yet, PDF copies of the 7 published ACE gamebooks are going for 1 pound each until the end of the month via DriveThruRPG (or get redirected there from JG's website).
In checking this out, I noticed that JG has also published PDF errata of a couple gamebooks (and these are free to download). I think this is really cool. I wish something like this was sorted for some of the messier FF titles!
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