ACE Gamebooks - General Discussion

[stevendoig]

I have all these books, I've played two of them once then put them away. The others I've no' even looked at yet.

(this will change now, as I will shortly begin a 'six shotties and no more' style mini marathon!

Anyway, without wishing to put down Mr Green, I was just wondering what people thought of the series in general. Personally, so far, I think they are well written, well (but sparsely) illustrated, but seem to lack a certain something - and I canny put my finger on it (again, maybe I'll work it oot soon!)

Any thoughts - ideas?

[bloodbeasthandler]

Yes, I know what you mean.

Is it the 'worlds' they are set in?

Are you interested in Neverland, Oz or Wonderland normally?
If it were not a gamebook by JG would you want to read stories in those settings?
Could that be it?

[stevendoig]

It could well be as simple as that!

And yes, I reckon personally, if they weren't written by him and didn't resemble ff books so much I doubt I would bother myself! However, as I said, I'm going to give them all a really good try! nlly

[bloodbeasthandler]

The books have good replay value - Beowulf has more than one winning ending, Neverland and Wizard of Oz have different characters in them - all of which encourage further reading after one successful run-through. He knows the original books, likes them, and has 'done the research'.

With the exception of Beowulf, though, they are not set in worlds I am particularly interested in. I wasn't really gripped by any of the original stories as a child so there's no nostalgia gland getting tickled there either.

Having said that, I'm very much looking forward to the Dracula book coming up - I hope JG will do a similar thing and have different characters in it like van Helsing, Mina Harker, Dr Seward - all of whom will bring something to the group of investigators trying to track down and kill Dracula. I quite like the Fury of Dracula boardgame in that respect.

I'd like to see him do similar stuff in Allansia - a band of thieves or assassins in Port Blacksand with a mission to achieve (and you know he'd read and reread AFF Blacksand! before writing it), a group of bodyguards tasked to protect a merchant from harm in Salamonis and where things might go very wrong for mysterious reasons, things like that.

The 'party of Player Characters' approach to things might bring us a step back closer to the origins of roleplaying which to me would be no bad thing.

[sylas]

Alice is the first and best of the bunch so far (if you can forgive the unfair Chess puzzle). Excellent writing and strong gameplay with more than a few winning paths and almost any array of attributes can see you through. The structure of the adventure is very good, and this is coming from a person who doesn't even like Alice in Wonderland.

Oz is a collection of 6 adventures that unfortunately plays out like it sounds, inevitably producing 6 rather short but enjoyable personal quests depending on who you choose. Using Pre-Gen characters doesn't work for me but then I always did enjoy more variety in character creation.

Beowulf is well written but there's no diversity in gameplay: you essentially follow a single path towards the finale with no deviations. Although any hero type can win through it's just too easy. And yet, the gameplay feels restrictive like you can't get the best ending if you put a foot wrong. The Grendel bonus quest is just a slog through of enemies. Nice addition but not really needed.

Neverland is similarly presented like Oz but has a lot more meat in its writing and game design. There so much to read and the book is huge compared to the others. I haven't played as all the characters yet but from what I have read, it's a huge step up from Oz and a very engaging adventure.

T'was is another fine adventure that feels the most like a Fighting Fantasy quest in its presentation, oddly enough. There are a few winning paths so replay value is good. Still, like many of the books after Alice, the adventure is too easy and I get more satisfaction from completing fair challenges.

Dracula will be coming out soon and I will only say that it is great. I'm a horror fan and I love Bram Stoker's Dracula so I'm partial to that.

If I was to rank them, it would be: Alice, Neverland, Dracula, T'was, Oz, Beowulf.

[kieran]

Jul 7, 2021 23:28:52 GMT sylas said:

Dracula will be coming out soon and I will only say that it is great. I'm a horror fan and I love Bram Stoker's Dracula so I'm partial to that.

Ah so you've already read it? Were you a play-tester?

I only own Alice and Twas (though I have signed up for the Kickstarter for Dracula) and I haven't even got round to attempting the latter and I've only tried the former once so I'm about as far from an expert on this series as you can get!

That rather large caveat aside, I must say I was pretty disappointed with Alice - firstly because it had a really annoying maze and secondly because, much like the Tim Burton film, I don't feel it really gets Wonderland. Lewis Carroll's Wonderland is freaky because, much like a dream, it keeps moving in and out of logical coherency - it's more about babies randomly turning into pigs than fighting steampunk serpents. Having said that, I've seen a lot of very positive reviews so I really should give it another go and be a bit more open-minded this time.

I gave Oz a miss because I really liked the Oz books as a child and I was worried the book would fail to get Oz in the way the previous book didn't get Wonderland. But I really should check it out rather than prejudge.

I think the Neverland book actually sounds really good and, unlike Wonderland and Oz, I don't really have any pre-existing views on how Neverland should be presented so I don't know why I haven't got round to acquiring that one yet.

I don't really know anything about the original Beowulf story bar that he killed a monster called Grendel and his mum so again I have no real prejudices where its concerned, however it sounds annoyingly linear so in no huge rush to try it.

Looking forward to Dracula though, it's sounding great thus far.

[sylas]

kieran

Alice is more like Fighting Fantasy but with Wonderland characters and setting. The maze you mentioned is not half as annoying as the ones in FF and is a heck of a lot easier to navigate plus it's actually filled with interesting encounters.

Oddly enough, Beowulf might be more challenging to a person with little knowledge of the original story, but it's rather easy to anyone who does.

T'was and Dracula obviously have a broader appeal and the next addition to the series deals with Kaiju and Mechs which sounds like good fun.

[kieran]

Jul 8, 2021 14:47:18 GMT sylas said:

kieran

The maze you mentioned is not half as annoying as the ones in FF and is a heck of a lot easier to navigate plus it's actually filled with interesting encounters.

Yeah, it's quite possible I was just in the wrong frame of mind when I encountered the maze in my playthrough. Then again I do tend to dislike mazes in gamebooks in general.

[stevendoig]

Some nice posts there!

OK, having had my first playthrough of Alice - I have worked out what my problem is ( with this book anyway)

Normally in a game book (at least ones I play) you are a faceless character and can project yourself into the role and it all adds to the role play experience.

In this book, not only is the character well known ( Alice, obviously) - but you don't actually play her! - you are making decisions on her behalf like she is some sort of puppet to be controlled.

As you guys know, I'm not very good at getting my point across, but this way of writing continually pulled me out of the book.!

[sylas]

Jul 9, 2021 5:37:35 GMT stevendoig said:

Some nice posts there!

OK, having had my first playthrough of Alice - I have worked out what my problem is ( with this book anyway)

Normally in a game book (at least ones I play) you are a faceless character and can project yourself into the role and it all adds to the role play experience.

In this book, not only is the character well known ( Alice, obviously) - but you don't actually play her! - you are making decisions on her behalf like she is some sort of puppet to be controlled.

As you guys know, I'm not very good at getting my point across, but this way of writing continually pulled me out of the book.!

No, I get ya, as I had a similar feeling myself. It would've been far better to simply have the reader play as Alice instead of controlling her actions. I'm not sure way it was written this way. Maybe Jon was hesitant to limit readers into playing as a little girl and felt that you controlling her would have a broader appeal. Thing is, in this day and age, I would like to think we're past that kind of belief that the hero must be male. Just my opinion anyway; it might have been a whole other reason behind it.

[The Count]

Ignoring the blatantly misogynistic elements of the desecration of the Alice tales...

My issue with these books is it is literally Green taking other peoples work and editing it - badly - to make a poor gamebook.

Writing within an established universe is one thing - and he did that well with his FF and 40K books, even though his gameplay elements have never quite worked - but repurposing someone elses work is something else entirely. So I find these very jarring - Alice in particular as I adore the books and as I got older and appreciated certain potential reasons for the more bizarre elements a lot more, I find someone else trying to appropriate such a magnificent story to be lazy at best. I did like the Alice computer game it has to be said, but that inhabited the same bizarre world as the books without copying them or trying to better them.

Also, one of the biggest problems with Green is that he is better at telling stories than he is at designing gamebooks. His linear Puffin efforts are basically great stories with incredibly difficult and overly complicated gamebook elements that just so happen to stop you finishing the story. His later efforts were far more simple yet dull and unengaging as he tried not to show his disdain for the reader, and overcompensated, adding in even more overly complex gameplay elements. These are someone elses stories, with his gamebook construction awkwardly forced into them.

[a moderator]

A quick reminder from the forum rules, The Count:

3. Respect For Other People



Disrespectful personal comments about others, including public personalities (either involved in the creation of gamebooks or not), are not tolerated. You are welcome to discuss their work, criticise their abilities as writers/artists/etc., and comment on their merits/performance, but personal attacks against them -- anything regarded as a personal affront -- is expressly against our rules.

[bloodbeasthandler]

You chucking hand-grenades around again, Count?

Jul 10, 2021 0:30:16 GMT The Count said:

Ignoring the blatantly misogynistic elements of the desecration of the Alice tales...

So blatant that they completely passed me by.

I'm no good at spotting these new Deadly Sins people are finding and denouncing these days.
Perhaps I need to go on a 're-education' course. Must 'do-better'. 

Jul 10, 2021 0:30:16 GMT The Count said:

My issue with these books is it is literally Green taking other peoples work and editing it - badly - to make a poor gamebook.

Writing within an established universe is one thing - and he did that well with his FF and 40K books, even though his gameplay elements have never quite worked - but repurposing someone elses work is something else entirely. So I find these very jarring - Alice in particular as I adore the books and as I got older and appreciated certain potential reasons for the more bizarre elements a lot more, I find someone else trying to appropriate such a magnificent story to be lazy at best. 

For me the books are taking the originals and putting a slant on them, steam-punking them or putting a darker edge on them.
 
He's not plundering them and disfiguring them out of hubris or desire to get a 'message' across or merely for the sake of it, like we might see with some other entertainment franchises. 
One of the differences between me and you here is that you clearly love the originals more than I do, and so might be a lot more sensitive to their alteration.  

Jul 10, 2021 0:30:16 GMT The Count said:

 His later efforts were far more simple yet dull and unengaging as he tried not to show his disdain for the reader, and overcompensated. 

Howl of the Werewolf, you never got round to reading that one I take it? Which ones do you mean by later efforts? 
Also, no 'disdain for the reader' detected by me, ever.
The only way you'd know that is from TEL or an ESP spell, or if you've heard stuff like that coming out of his own mouth. If it's difficulty level you mean, then yeah he pitched them too hard originally, but he's hardly the only FF writer who did that. And the character generation system with SKILL = 6+D6 makes balance incredibly difficult, something I bang on and on about with these books.  

[kieran]

Jul 9, 2021 5:37:35 GMT stevendoig said:

In this book, not only is the character well known ( Alice, obviously) - but you don't actually play her! - you are making decisions on her behalf like she is some sort of puppet to be controlled.

The Sonic the Hedgehog gamebooks also take this approach (and two of them were co-written by Jonathan Green of course), but they have a bit of fun with the concept, Sonic backchatting the reader if he doesn't like his/her choices etc. But yes, as a general rule I don't much like the approach either.

[sylas]

@the Count

I respectfully disagree with almost everything you said in your post.

[The Count]

Jul 10, 2021 17:47:46 GMT bloodbeasthandler said:

Jul 10, 2021 0:30:16 GMT The Count said:

 His later efforts were far more simple yet dull and unengaging as he tried not to show his disdain for the reader, and overcompensated. 

Howl of the Werewolf, you never got round to reading that one I take it? 

It's been established elsewhere that I do not share the near universal worship of Howl, though I do think it is his most enjoyable FF effort, or Green in general as a gamebook writer.

I think he is a much better book author than a gamebook writer.

That said, I am quite looking forward to the Dracula one.

[Jonathan Green]

Jul 8, 2021 10:18:29 GMT kieran said:

Jul 7, 2021 23:28:52 GMT sylas said:

Dracula will be coming out soon and I will only say that it is great. I'm a horror fan and I love Bram Stoker's Dracula so I'm partial to that.

I think the Neverland book actually sounds really good and, unlike Wonderland and Oz, I don't really have any pre-existing views on how Neverland should be presented so I don't know why I haven't got round to acquiring that one yet.

I'm not a fan of Peter Pan myself, so I wanted to make NEVERLAND something I would enjoy reading. Hence the addition of all the dinosaurs. ;-)

I would have to agree with you and say that it is the best of the first three ACE Gamebooks.

[Jonathan Green]

Jul 7, 2021 23:28:52 GMT sylas said:

T'was is another fine adventure that feels the most like a Fighting Fantasy quest in its presentation, oddly enough. There are a few winning paths so replay value is good. Still, like many of the books after Alice, the adventure is too easy and I get more satisfaction from completing fair challenges.

I would agree with you there. RONIN 47 is like that too; a brand new story only tangentally influenced by an existing work of literature.

[Jonathan Green]

Jul 12, 2021 10:36:15 GMT The Count said:

Jul 10, 2021 17:47:46 GMT bloodbeasthandler said:

Howl of the Werewolf, you never got round to reading that one I take it? 

It's been established elsewhere that I do not share the near universal worship of Howl, though I do think it is his most enjoyable FF effort, or Green in general as a gamebook writer.

I think he is a much better book author than a gamebook writer.

That said, I am quite looking forward to the Dracula one.

This is interesting, because I rate my abilities as a gamebook writer as being greater than my abilities as a novelist.

Maybe I should try wirting some longer form narrative fiction again.

[Jonathan Green]

Jul 8, 2021 16:11:18 GMT kieran said:

Jul 8, 2021 14:47:18 GMT sylas said:

kieran

The maze you mentioned is not half as annoying as the ones in FF and is a heck of a lot easier to navigate plus it's actually filled with interesting encounters.

Yeah, it's quite possible I was just in the wrong frame of mind when I encountered the maze in my playthrough. Then again I do tend to dislike mazes in gamebooks in general.

I've not put any mazes in my gamebooks since.

[Jonathan Green]

Jul 7, 2021 23:28:52 GMT sylas said:

Oz is a collection of 6 adventures that unfortunately plays out like it sounds, inevitably producing 6 rather short but enjoyable personal quests depending on who you choose. Using Pre-Gen characters doesn't work for me but then I always did enjoy more variety in character creation.

Agreed. I tried to fix that with NEVERLAND, which is one of the reasons why I rate NEVERLAND higher than OZ.

[Jonathan Green]

Jul 10, 2021 0:30:16 GMT The Count said:

I find someone else trying to appropriate such a magnificent story to be lazy at best. 

I can assure you that this is not the case. It takes me much less time to write a gamebook like 'TWAS, or RONIN 47, than it does to adapt a story like DRACULA.

[Jonathan Green]

Jul 9, 2021 15:01:03 GMT sylas said:

Jul 9, 2021 5:37:35 GMT stevendoig said:

Some nice posts there!

OK, having had my first playthrough of Alice - I have worked out what my problem is ( with this book anyway)

Normally in a game book (at least ones I play) you are a faceless character and can project yourself into the role and it all adds to the role play experience.

In this book, not only is the character well known ( Alice, obviously) - but you don't actually play her! - you are making decisions on her behalf like she is some sort of puppet to be controlled.

As you guys know, I'm not very good at getting my point across, but this way of writing continually pulled me out of the book.!

No, I get ya, as I had a similar feeling myself. It would've been far better to simply have the reader play as Alice instead of controlling her actions. I'm not sure way it was written this way. Maybe Jon was hesitant to limit readers into playing as a little girl and felt that you controlling her would have a broader appeal. Thing is, in this day and age, I would like to think we're past that kind of belief that the hero must be male. Just my opinion anyway; it might have been a whole other reason behind it.

You are spot on! I did feel that the book would have greater appeal if Alice was a character you directed, as you do in many computer game, rather that actually YOU, as in the FF adventures.

Since then, of course, I've grown in confidence, which is why in OZ you become Dorothy, or the Wicked Witch of the West, and in NEVERLAND you are Wendy Darling or Tiger Lily.

However, some readers have complained that by having female characters, it limits how much of the content they can enjoy. When I asked one complainer, "Why wouldn't you want to play as a bad-ass sabretooth-riding warrior like Tiger Lily?" he replied with the terse comment, "Because I'm not a girl!"

[sylas]

To those people who lack an imagination, you should expect an unimaginative answer.

[Jonathan Green]

Mar 25, 2022 15:31:09 GMT sylas said:

To those people who lack an imagination, you should expect an unimaginative answer.

Is this in relation to one of my comments?

[kieran]

Mar 25, 2022 13:00:29 GMT Jonathan Green said:

Jul 8, 2021 10:18:29 GMT kieran said:

I think the Neverland book actually sounds really good and, unlike Wonderland and Oz, I don't really have any pre-existing views on how Neverland should be presented so I don't know why I haven't got round to acquiring that one yet.

I'm not a fan of Peter Pan myself, so I wanted to make NEVERLAND something I would enjoy reading. Hence the addition of all the dinosaurs. ;-)

I would have to agree with you and say that it is the best of the first three ACE Gamebooks.

I've acquired it since and it's now sitting in my rather imposing to-read pile

[sylas]

Mar 25, 2022 16:17:43 GMT Jonathan Green said:

Mar 25, 2022 15:31:09 GMT sylas said:

To those people who lack an imagination, you should expect an unimaginative answer.

Is this in relation to one of my comments?

Yes, the one about why a guy wouldn't play a girl character. I was meant to link the quote but i guess it didn't work when I posted.

[Jonathan Green]

Mar 25, 2022 16:29:54 GMT sylas said:

Mar 25, 2022 16:17:43 GMT Jonathan Green said:

Is this in relation to one of my comments?

Yes, the one about why a guy wouldn't play a girl character. I was meant to link the quote but i guess it didn't work when I posted.

Ah, okay. It makes sense now. ;-)

[The Count]

Mar 25, 2022 13:10:10 GMT Jonathan Green said:

Jul 10, 2021 0:30:16 GMT The Count said:

I find someone else trying to appropriate such a magnificent story to be lazy at best. 

I can assure you that this is not the case. It takes me much less time to write a gamebook like 'TWAS, or RONIN 47, than it does to adapt a story like DRACULA.

You haven't assured me. No matter how long it takes you to "adapt" a story like Dracula or Alice, someone else has already done the hard graft of the world building, background, plot, character creation and storyline. If you find adapting someone else's work hard, that is because you should - and lack the creativity to create something unique. Having read your FF efforts which show a great creative mind, I can only conclude that you couldn't be arsed trying to build your own gamebook universe so pillaged the tales of your betters.

Citing your crapmaus effort doesn't help your case as that was another example of you taking a story and character created by someone else and ramming it into another format for your own personal gain.

[sylas]

Mar 26, 2022 4:16:29 GMT The Count said:

Mar 25, 2022 13:10:10 GMT Jonathan Green said:

I can assure you that this is not the case. It takes me much less time to write a gamebook like 'TWAS, or RONIN 47, than it does to adapt a story like DRACULA.

You haven't assured me. No matter how long it takes you to "adapt" a story like Dracula or Alice, someone else has already done the hard graft of the world building, background, plot, character creation and storyline. If you find adapting someone else's work hard, that is because you should - and lack the creativity to create something unique. Having read your FF efforts which show a great creative mind, I can only conclude that you couldn't be arsed trying to build your own gamebook universe so pillaged the tales of your betters.

Citing your crapmaus effort doesn't help your case as that was another example of you taking a story and character created by someone else and ramming it into another format for your own personal gain.

You should tell that to literally every person who has adapted something into something else. I find your own reasoning absurd.