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Post by CharlesX on Sept 1, 2021 18:27:43 GMT
Yes, the hacks who wrote the vast majority of FF are often better than the founding fathers, but which of the two is your favourite? No 'can't decide', no 'Paul Mason' etc. After Creature Of Havoc and Eye Of The Dragon, some people might think Steve Jackson (UK) is the better author. But does Ian Livingstone also have a following, for example for his Island Of The Lizard King? Poll locks September 13th 4:30 p.m. Hopefully will be more successful than my other polls, which have produced discussion but little voting. If even one female votes herself in in one of my gender polls I will consider it a world-class upset. This place is almost as male as Bill C.'s & Bill C.'s Gentleman's Club.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,547
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Sept 1, 2021 18:52:35 GMT
Steve was definitely the more ambitious writer, taking risks with new settings, new rules and clever design features that really pushed what could be achieved within the genre. Apart from one example where it didn't really pay off (Starship Traveller) he was extremely successful with these experiments.
Ian basically found a formula he liked, tinkered with it a little bit to perfect it in Deathtrap Dungeon and stuck with it. Even his books that seem on the surface a bit different (Freeway Fighter and Armies of Death) don't feel all that different when you play them - you barely use your army in the latter and the roads in the former may as well be dungeon corridors.
That said I really like Ian's formula for the most part. Just wish he'd cool it with the harsh difficulty and his post-Eye of the Dragon books have become far too linear.
So Steve wins for me.
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Post by daredevil123 on Sept 1, 2021 19:13:48 GMT
I wonder if Vagsancho will come out of hibernation to vote for Ian. My own, un-nuanced view is that Steve is effortlessly superior.
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Post by The Count on Sept 1, 2021 22:33:57 GMT
Steve is without a doubt the better story teller. However, two of his books have been utterly abysmal, the remainder of the Sorcery! series I find to be horribly overrated and rammed full of complexity for the sake of it - and there is no excuse for the sloppy crud that was slapped between a cover to form Starship Traveller! Yes, House of Hell and Creature of Havoc are mostly well crafted but both have gaping flaws, Citadel is far too easy with all the interesting encounters being away from the main path and a villain that lives up to his name. Even his part of Warlock has a few silly encounters, another pair of "boss" encounters that can be defeated far too easily, and not much else. His books don't match up to the hype.
Ian tends to follow the same linear path for all his books, and it is blatantly obvious that his most recent attempts have been quickly tossed out money grabbers designed to cash in on what went before for older readers and dumbed down for newer ones, with scant regard for his own mythology / canon. While is books tend to be simpler, when he does add complexity (such as in Temple of Terror), it is generally well implemented and not an inconvenience - though this cannot be said for his tendency to force you to carry the contents of an Amazon warehouse around with you...
Overall, when I ranked all the FF books, three Ian titles were in the Top 30 (11, 20, 28), and the highest Steve effort got to 35. So as much as I complain about his boring tour guide tendencies, Ian just wins out for me as those books of his that I appreciate, I really enjoy.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,744
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Sept 1, 2021 23:19:26 GMT
I have many quibbles with Ian's books but I still prefer his work. I find it more engaging and easier to read, whereas Steve's work I can recognize as being superbly written and designed...yet I have difficulty getting into in a short space of time. Even the hugely popular Creature of Havoc and Crown of Kings I'm not a huge fan of. Steve understands the balance of game mechanics more than Ian does and often tries new ideas. Ian follows familiar formulas but makes sure it's an entertaining journey and mostly feels less of a stressful experience. So I think Steve is comparably the better author despite finding Ian's work more enjoyable.
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Post by petch on Sept 2, 2021 8:36:13 GMT
I wonder if Vagsancho will come out of hibernation to vote for Ian. My own, un-nuanced view is that Steve is effortlessly superior. Well I couldn't lure him out to vote for Razaak in the character battle! Yeah, it's Steve isn't it, for the reasons already given. That said though, even when Ian's books descended into the formulaic (which, if I'm being uncharitable, is everything from Temple of Terror onwards), there was still a warm, nostalgic sense of contentment to be had from reading them, like driving a reliable old car or putting on a comfortable pair of old jeans. And when he tied an interesting idea and/or a cracking story to his tried-and-tested formula for gamebook design (notably for me, Freeway Fighter, Crypt of the Sorcerer and even the much-maligned Blood of the Zombies) they were terrific fun. Overall though, I find it hard to view the majority of Ian's books that favourably when compared to works by authors who were making the effort to do something new and different. But some of his early stuff was liberally sprinkled with magic dust to the extent that I don't think the series as a whole would have enjoyed the success it had, or had the longevity it did, without them.
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Post by CharlesX on Sept 2, 2021 12:19:37 GMT
Steve is without a doubt the better story teller. However, two of his books have been utterly abysmal, the remainder of the Sorcery! series I find to be horribly overrated and rammed full of complexity for the sake of it - and there is no excuse for the sloppy crud that was slapped between a cover to form Starship Traveller! Yes, House of Hell and Creature of Havoc are mostly well crafted but both have gaping flaws, Citadel is far too easy with all the interesting encounters being away from the main path and a villain that lives up to his name. Even his part of Warlock has a few silly encounters, another pair of "boss" encounters that can be defeated far too easily, and not much else. His books don't match up to the hype. Ian tends to follow the same linear path for all his books, and it is blatantly obvious that his most recent attempts have been quickly tossed out money grabbers designed to cash in on what went before for older readers and dumbed down for newer ones, with scant regard for his own mythology / canon. While is books tend to be simpler, when he does add complexity (such as in Temple of Terror), it is generally well implemented and not an inconvenience - though this cannot be said for his tendency to force you to carry the contents of an Amazon warehouse around with you... Overall, when I ranked all the FF books, three Ian titles were in the Top 30 (11, 20, 28), and the highest Steve effort got to 35. So as much as I complain about his boring tour guide tendencies, Ian just wins out for me as those books of his that I appreciate, I really enjoy. If anything Appointment With F.EA.R. would sell better in the 21st century world where superheroes are so in vogue; and I'm amazed you hate it more than Gates Of Death! I think SJ is overrated, even IL is underrated, but not quite that much. I think Island Of The Lizard King is a masterpiece, and aspects of Temple Of Terror are. It's such a shame IL went back to simplistic stuff after that.
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Post by dragonwarrior8 on Sept 2, 2021 15:00:46 GMT
I feel like this poll might have been closer had Ian stopped with Trial of Champions as its his efforts after this that seems to have tarnished his legacy (although I still would have voted for Steve, as House of Hell, Creature of Havoc, and Crown of Kings are all phenomenal).
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Post by CharlesX on Sept 2, 2021 15:09:49 GMT
I feel like this poll might have been closer had Ian stopped with Trial of Champions as its his efforts after this that seems to have tarnished his legacy (although I still would have voted for Steve, as House of Hell, Creature of Havoc, and Crown of Kings are all phenomenal). Hell, I would have voted for Ian, because I'm a fan of Island Of The Lizard King and Trial Of Champions, and not one of Starship Traveller and Citadel Of Chaos.
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Post by nathanh on Sept 2, 2021 18:56:46 GMT
Funny story: when I was young I didn't notice that the "SJ & IL Present" books were actually written by other people. I thought the pair wrote them all together, apart from the ones they did on their own. Therefore I reasoned that Livingstone was the better gamebook writer, because Night Dragon was my favourite book, and it was similar in structure and mechanics to Legend of Zagor, which was only written by Livingstone. Hence, he must be the better gamebook writer.
Today, I'd still give Ian the edge, because I find his books more fun to read, and while Steve's books are very impressively-designed, they are usually not that fun for me to play anyway, and hard to explore freely with all the special secret rules he likes to add. Also, Eye of the Dragon is hilarious.
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Post by tyrion on Sept 2, 2021 21:29:24 GMT
Steve is definitely the better gamebook designer, but Ian's books make a better read. If I want a mental challenge, noting down clues and solving puzzles, I'll go with Steve. If I want to find my loaded dice so I can read a story, I'll go with Ian.
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Post by The Count on Sept 2, 2021 22:52:59 GMT
Steve is without a doubt the better story teller. However, two of his books have been utterly abysmal, the remainder of the Sorcery! series I find to be horribly overrated and rammed full of complexity for the sake of it - and there is no excuse for the sloppy crud that was slapped between a cover to form Starship Traveller! Yes, House of Hell and Creature of Havoc are mostly well crafted but both have gaping flaws, Citadel is far too easy with all the interesting encounters being away from the main path and a villain that lives up to his name. Even his part of Warlock has a few silly encounters, another pair of "boss" encounters that can be defeated far too easily, and not much else. His books don't match up to the hype. Ian tends to follow the same linear path for all his books, and it is blatantly obvious that his most recent attempts have been quickly tossed out money grabbers designed to cash in on what went before for older readers and dumbed down for newer ones, with scant regard for his own mythology / canon. While is books tend to be simpler, when he does add complexity (such as in Temple of Terror), it is generally well implemented and not an inconvenience - though this cannot be said for his tendency to force you to carry the contents of an Amazon warehouse around with you... Overall, when I ranked all the FF books, three Ian titles were in the Top 30 (11, 20, 28), and the highest Steve effort got to 35. So as much as I complain about his boring tour guide tendencies, Ian just wins out for me as those books of his that I appreciate, I really enjoy. If anything Appointment With F.EA.R. would sell better in the 21st century world where superheroes are so in vogue; and I'm amazed you hate it more than Gates Of Death! I think SJ is overrated, even IL is underrated, but not quite that much. I think Island Of The Lizard King is a masterpiece, and aspects of Temple Of Terror are. It's such a shame IL went back to simplistic stuff, written for money, after that. I loathe comic books at the best of times, and a book that takes the most obvious tropes that even in the 80s seemed passé could never interest me - and for a modern audience, it lacks the fake titted floozy cast as the "feisty" female fauxbian, and the political lecturing that is delivered with all the subtlety of a nuclear missile detonating. I remember taking it from the school library on at least half a dozen occasions (due to no other FF books being available) and being utterly disappointed by it each time.
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Post by sleepyscholar on Sept 3, 2021 12:49:05 GMT
If anything Appointment With F.EA.R. would sell better in the 21st century world where superheroes are so in vogue; and I'm amazed you hate it more than Gates Of Death! I think SJ is overrated, even IL is underrated, but not quite that much. I think Island Of The Lizard King is a masterpiece, and aspects of Temple Of Terror are. It's such a shame IL went back to simplistic stuff, written for money, after that. The phrase 'written for money' is redundant in that sentence. It implies that he wrote an FF for a reason other than money.
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Post by CharlesX on Sept 3, 2021 13:17:19 GMT
Edited.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,547
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Sept 3, 2021 13:37:13 GMT
Looking at their earlier books, they actually compare pretty well to one another:
Citadel of Chaos vs Forest of Doom Starship Traveller vs City of Thieves The Shamutanti Hills vs Deathtrap Dungeon Khare: Cityport of Traps vs Island of the Lizard King The Seven Serpents vs Caverns of the Snow Witch
In fact, I might even say Ian has a slight edge. But then Steve churns out, in my opinion, his best four books and four of the best books in the entire series: House of Hell, Crown of Kings, Appointment with FEAR and Creature of Havoc. Meanwhile Ian puts out the more ho-hum Freeway Fighter, Temple of Terror, Trial of Champions and, um, Crypt of the Sorcerer. And his books after Steve leaves the series to put his feet up were, for the most part, even weaker.
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Post by philsadler on Sept 3, 2021 15:11:29 GMT
mechanics to Legend of Zagor, which was only written by Livingstone.
He didn't write LOZ. It was ghost-written by Keith Martin.
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Post by vastariner on Sept 3, 2021 15:48:44 GMT
Jackson is the better plotter.
Livingstone the better writer.
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kieran
Baron
Posts: 2,547
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy
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Post by kieran on Sept 3, 2021 16:59:16 GMT
Jackson is the better plotter. Livingstone the better writer. I think that's true early on but I feel House of Hell, Crown of Kings and Creature of Havoc have better writing than anything Ian ever produced.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Sept 3, 2021 18:14:40 GMT
Though at this point I would sooner read a gamebook by Steve Jackson rather than Ian Livingstone, I think it ought to be borne in mind that the last time Steve wrote a gamebook was 1986. I think IL ought to be given more credit for keeping the books going, promoting them (at UK Games Expo or wherever), generally being a driving force, and for fleshing out Allansia in the early stages of the series.
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Post by vastariner on Sept 4, 2021 23:15:22 GMT
Jackson is the better plotter. Livingstone the better writer. I think that's true early on but I feel House of Hell, Crown of Kings and Creature of Havoc have better writing than anything Ian ever produced. CoK and CoH cheat though - more than 400 references. It's easier if you do not have to be concise. "I am sorry this letter is so long, I had no time to write a shorter one." It's why Hemingway will always be a better writer than Henry James.
Agree HoH has great writing, but Livingstone did it more consistently - his run up to ToC has some exquisite and atmospheric prose.
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sylas
Baron
"Don't just adventure for treasure; treasure the adventure!"
Posts: 1,744
Favourite Gamebook Series: Fighting Fantasy, Way of the Tiger
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Post by sylas on Sept 4, 2021 23:35:27 GMT
I think that's true early on but I feel House of Hell, Crown of Kings and Creature of Havoc have better writing than anything Ian ever produced. CoK and CoH cheat though - more than 400 references. It's easier if you do not have to be concise. "I am sorry this letter is so long, I had no time to write a shorter one." It's why Hemingway will always be a better writer than Henry James.
Agree HoH has great writing, but Livingstone did it more consistently - his run up to ToC has some exquisite and atmospheric prose.
Except for Forest of Doom and Freeway Fighter.
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Post by CharlesX on Sept 13, 2021 18:18:13 GMT
So, it seems clear SJ is the favoured writer of the two, although IL is not without his fans. I agree with the poster who pointed out IL's later stuff has been pretty drossy, so perhaps if IL could return to form as the author of TOT and IOTLK, instead of the author of EOTD and POP, perhaps he could be a stronger competitor.
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Post by bloodbeasthandler on Sept 13, 2021 19:39:57 GMT
I agree with the poster who pointed out IL's later stuff has been pretty drossy, so perhaps if IL could return to form as the author of TOT and IOTLK, instead of the author of EOTD and POP, perhaps he could be a stronger competitor. This is a key point and one that will be in people's minds. The question as asked is 'who writes the better books?' That means people here will weigh up all the books, including Eye of the Dragon, Port of Peril etc... But if we look at what each author put out between 1983 and 87 during the initial years of the gamebook boom ... For Steve Jackson we have: Citadel of Chaos, Starship Traveller, House of Hell, Appointment with FEAR, Creature of Havoc, and Sorcery! 1 - 4. [nine in total] For Ian Livingstone we have: Forest of Doom, City of Thieves, Deathtrap Dungeon, Island of the Lizard King, Caverns of the Snow Witch, Freeway Fighter, Temple of Terror, Trial of Champions, Crypt of the Sorceror. [nine in total] We've cleared away Ian's later books. Now pick the best three of each author (for IL I'd go for CoT, DD and IotLK, for SJ HoH, CoH and maybe Sorcery 3) and the single poorest book of each (for me, Freeway Fighter and Starship Traveller) and it looks a lot closer doesn't it?
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Post by drmanhattan on Sept 27, 2021 21:34:24 GMT
Well the sorcery series just on it’s own puts Steve in another stratosphere but if you do stick to the original era in the main FF line then Deathtrap Dungeon and City of Thieves along with whichever of the others actually is pretty good competition for House of Hell, Creature of Havoc and Citadel of Chaos which would be my picks. I might have to say CoT and DD put peak OG Ian on top despite being a SJ fanboy. But still, the Sorcery series was in a whole other league let’s be honest
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